Hiring People from the Elitist Jerks site was a mistake.

[Kralljin]

Why do you think we have all of these interlocking systems in the game? Ion is an analytical guy. Great to have when dealing with raid mechanics or character design. Not the guy to oversee story.

I think it's more that they try to unite something that cannot be united.

Take this whole covenant thing, it's supposed to "restore some RPG elements".
Of course, reintroducing those "old RPG elements" is out of the question because the modern audience is pretty aversed to its downsides, so they attempt bring that old philosophy back but also "balance away" any of its downsides.

To me, it's more of a symptom of the team realizing that they pretty much axe'd a lot of RPG elements out of WoW over the years, which has hurt the game, but the reintroduction clashes extremely poorly with the gameplay focused approach the has for over a decade by now.

Also, ego is also a problem, which is frankly a huge issue with Blizzard and certainly not limited to those "ex elitist developers".
Those people overestimate their ability time and time again, which is ironic, for all this talk about "all they care about spreadsheets", i'd expect pretty solid balance in that aspect.

Lastly, it also needs to be said that the vast majority of outdoor content in WoW is just plain bad, unless you're a fan of grinding in style of Classic / TBC, there is hardly any decent outdoor content in WoW.

Funny how we can't even agree on simple things like this. Is it raid or die?

I am asking you, where has WoW not been "Raid or die" to you?

Like what's the endgame for professions?

Nothing, but that's way it has been since Wotlk.

You can't say the game is not made for raiders if the main story is finished in raids and mythic only phases are canon.

I can't believe people are still salty about Mar'gok.

[Garymorilix]

Funny how we can't even agree on simple things like this. Is it raid or die?

For the record how much casual content there is and how much relevant casual content there is, is a different matter. Like what's the endgame for professions? Do you crossbreed plants for your garden? Do you do ocean fishing? Do you decipher teasure maps?

You can't say the game is not made for raiders if the main story is finished in raids and mythic only phases are canon.

Wether the raiders like the content they are given is a different matter.

This is WoW not fucking Stardew Valley.

There are whole zones dedicated to farming vanity items.
What the fuck else do "casual" people need?

We have zones for casual farming, story-mode difficulty for raids, each covenant has their own special building to fuck with, you can farm like 8000 mounts/transmogs throughtout like 15 years of WoW content, pet battles, even world quests and extra reputations you can farm.

WoW is a combat based game, always was, always will be.
What else do you need?
Literally, what else do you need? Casuals can access literally every part of the game if you don't care about difficulty.

[TrollHunter3000]

They should had hired from casual communities like pet/mount collectors and stuff so they keep the game more user friendly to new players and absolute newbies so it grows organically and not by keeping hard core players that were already getting old.

I liked the Elitist Jerks website because I wanted to be optimal at raiding but those people banned you for the slightest excuse so it was a huge mistake respecting that for a game that first became successful for being "user friendly Everquest".

The game is literally the most casual friendly it's ever been. There is so much content for non-raiders right now.

[Revamp Man]

Let’s look at current systems

Covenants
Soulbinds
Conduits
None of these are in any way changed by playing hardcore

The maw
Venari upgrades
If you are a player that does one weekly quest in there you hit max rep months ago and you were on par with hardcore raiders

Torghast
They literally made a system to help more casual players get further and get required items to upgrade legendaries without doing it

Dungeons
M+
Idk why this is seen as hardcore when you can do +5s easily and get weekly gear rewards that would be over normal raid level

Raids
Literally no change in story ending regardless of mythic only phases and you receive the same gear

Hardcore essentially just speeds up everything at most but that’s to allow the hardcore players to enjoy the game which for many they actually did a lot more because of the fact these new systems work against them

[starstationprofm]

They should had hired from casual communities like pet/mount collectors and stuff so they keep the game more user friendly to new players and absolute newbies so it grows organically and not by keeping hard core players that were already getting old.

I liked the Elitist Jerks website because I wanted to be optimal at raiding but those people banned you for the slightest excuse so it was a huge mistake respecting that for a game that first became successful for being "user friendly Everquest".

Absolutely not. The only reason I play WoW these days is that their raid design is by far the best and most complex of any game.

If the game still had Vanilla~WOTLK era encounters that any moron could do I'd not touch the game at all.

Mythic Raids are the best part of WoW.

[Nynax]

Well who else to blame, when the game is raid or die. Like what PvE endgame do you have beside mythic + and raiding? You can't say the game was designed for casuals, can you?

Something at confuses me about this argument is....what is and "endgame alternative?" Other than M+ and the PVP ladder grind, do we wanna see new pet battle tournaments that take weeks to level up and grind through? Do we wanna see months long quest lines like suramar? Gearing through professions via some long Monster Hunter grind system in the open world?

And what other content is going to require organized group play equal to an "endgame?" Why is it that every single combat focused MMO uses some form of raiding for the endgame? And why is every attempt at opening that up to open world raids just a zerg fest?

[Bakis]

Funny how we can't even agree on simple things like this. Is it raid or die?

For the record how much casual content there is and how much relevant casual content there is, is a different matter. Like what's the endgame for professions? Do you crossbreed plants for your garden? Do you do ocean fishing? Do you decipher teasure maps?

You can't say the game is not made for raiders if the main story is finished in raids and mythic only phases are canon.

Wether the raiders like the content they are given is a different matter.

Again, tell us what good and doable endgame PvE should be? You keep bitching and cant even say what it should be.
How do you make daily quests, pet battles, professions etc. endgame?

[Argorwal]

They should had hired from casual communities like pet/mount collectors and stuff so they keep the game more user friendly to new players and absolute newbies so it grows organically and not by keeping hard core players that were already getting old.

I liked the Elitist Jerks website because I wanted to be optimal at raiding but those people banned you for the slightest excuse so it was a huge mistake respecting that for a game that first became successful for being "user friendly Everquest".

He was hired in 2008, let it go man.

[Gorsameth]

Well who else to blame, when the game is raid or die. Like what PvE endgame do you have beside mythic + and raiding? You can't say the game was designed for casuals, can you?

funny considering the game has been less 'raid or die' under Ion then before.

[Kumorii]

For me its the fact that every facet of the game benefits hardcore players more now. For example, one new problem in recent expansions is dungeons used to be considered casual content. Now it is hardcore content thanks to Mythic +. Even transmogs and mounts require hardcore raiding if you want to get all the best ones.

Like you said you have your perspective based on your guild, but from what I see its the complete opposite. There is minimal for casual players to do in SL compared to hardcore players. The whole game (Raiding, dungeons, PVP, collections, transmogs) caters to their playstyle now.

I just have way better options as a casual player for mmos. I don't think the same can be said of WoW. Wow is THE hardcore players paradise.

Casuals don't want or need new mounts and transmogs instantly, which is why they often go and raid older raids to get the transmogs and mount they want. If you are going for the latest transmog and mounts that requires for example mythic raiding, that by itself means you aren't casual anymore. Your goal is just different to other raiders...you are a hardcore mount/transmog collector.

M+ didn't remove anything from "casual" dungeoneers. It just added extra stuff for people who wants to push it.

Funny how we can't even agree on simple things like this. Is it raid or die?

For the record how much casual content there is and how much relevant casual content there is, is a different matter. Like what's the endgame for professions? Do you crossbreed plants for your garden? Do you do ocean fishing? Do you decipher teasure maps?

You can't say the game is not made for raiders if the main story is finished in raids and mythic only phases are canon.

Wether the raiders like the content they are given is a different matter.

Not sure why you bundle me with other peoples opinions... I just speak for my own. Only thing that's for "non-casuals" are high end m+ and higher difficulties of raiding... literally everything else is casual content.

You not having the specific things you mention doesn't mean the rest isn't casual. Treasure hunting, rare hunting, events, assaults, wq's etc etc are all casual content.

[Kokolums]

Can you come up with any other form of endgame? You are mad pet battles or daily quests cant be made into endgame?
So what should be endgame PvE in your mind? Please tell us.

I explained this a million times.

What made endgame raiding great back in the day was the social nature of it. Here is an example.

Your server has a pecking order of raiding guilds, ranked by progression. Guild A is furthest into progression. Maybe Guild B is 5 bosses behind. Guild C is 6 bosses behind. You are in Guild B. In between boss attempts, you get reports on what Guild C is doing. Did they wipe again? Did they kill a boss to catch up to you in progression? What's going on with Guild A? Maybe they are about to collapse, putting your guild as best on server. How about Guild D? They came out of nowhere and are 4 bosses behind Guild B really fast, will they pass us? All of those dynamics made end game raiding social across the server and very interesting.

Today, endgame raiding is much more boring. Maybe you kill some bosses. Maybe you don't. There is no frame of reference that matters. No-one cares. There is no social scene. Nothing matters.

And there are solutions.

1. Just bring back server identities and server rivals.
2. Create "guild leagues" to generate the same sort of inter-guild PVE tension.

[NatePsy]

Focusing on raids is a stale design, it worked ages ago but not so much these days given that the playstyle of the Community has shifted a lot since.

[Bakis]

I explained this a million times.

What made endgame raiding great back in the day was the social nature of it. Here is an example.

Your server has a pecking order of raiding guilds, ranked by progression. Guild A is furthest into progression. Maybe Guild B is 5 bosses behind. Guild C is 6 bosses behind. You are in Guild B. In between boss attempts, you get reports on what Guild C is doing. Did they wipe again? Did they kill a boss to catch up to you in progression? What's going on with Guild A? Maybe they are about to collapse, putting your guild as best on server. How about Guild D? They came out of nowhere and are 4 bosses behind really fast, will they pass us? All of those dynamics made end game raiding social across the server and very interesting.

Today, endgame raiding is much more boring. Maybe you kill some bosses. Maybe you don't. There is no frame of reference that matters. No-one cares. There is no social scene. Nothing matters.

And there are solutions.

1. Just bring back server identities and server rivals.
2. Create "guild leagues" to generate the same sort of inter-guild PVE tension.

I agree with you but you answered what would make the social aspect better. Nothing of what you just wrote has anything to do with your original claim that PvE need more endgame than raids and M+ does it?
This post of yours does not increase endgame nor change it in any way.

[Kokolums]

Steve Jobs had the philosophy that you FIRST found a core room of developers that have a true passion for the mission. The rest takes care of itself, as the passionate people will reinforce discipline and hard work and create a culture of superior results. So in that regard, selecting people from EJ to run things is a sound strategy. The problem is correctly identifying people who have a passion for the mission. Modern WoW game design suggests they no longer do that. The modern game feels like they selected people who have a passion for hating other people, which is why the game feels incredibly antisocial. I have advocated for years they need to clean house of antisocial people.

- - - Updated - - -

I agree with you but you answered what would make the social aspect better. Nothing of what you just wrote has anything to do with your original claim that PvE need more endgame than raids and M+ does it?
This post of yours does not increase endgame nor change it in any way.

My post makes HUGE and NEEDED changes to endgame. These are the changes that are EXACTLY correct.

[Nnyco]

Considering the quality of raids we had since hes in charge, i highly disagree.

Feels more like the usual 'point at the highest up to complain' thread. OMG METZEN BAD, OMG GC BAD, OMG HOLINKA BAD. Seen it a million times.

[ohwell]

Can you come up with any other form of endgame? You are mad pet battles or daily quests cant be made into endgame?
So what should be endgame PvE in your mind? Please tell us.

Let's clarify that even further: They want to get gear on par with raiding and m+/pvp while doing pet battles or collecting herbs.

[Bakis]

My post makes HUGE and NEEDED changes to endgame. These are the changes that are EXACTLY correct.

No? The theme of your posts has been that the only endgame for PvE is raiding and M+ and hinted alot that other areas needed to be endgame.
So what can be concluded is the following:
A: your social aspects doesn't change PvE and M+ for being the only PvE engame content, in fact it would be a community change which I hail still not chaging point A though.
B: you haven't been able to list any other area that could potentially be PvE endgame content

Edit: considering the only raid so far was obsolete months ago I would argue there has been a lack of Raiding and M+ endgame.

[M1r4g3]

They should had hired from casual communities like pet/mount collectors and stuff so they keep the game more user friendly to new players and absolute newbies so it grows organically and not by keeping hard core players that were already getting old.

I liked the Elitist Jerks website because I wanted to be optimal at raiding but those people banned you for the slightest excuse so it was a huge mistake respecting that for a game that first became successful for being "user friendly Everquest".

Just stop this crap, its not hardcore vs casual its soulless devs with massive egos vs players in general, who they should have hired is people with empathy that also have a lot of knowledge about the game as a whole.

[crakerjack]

Absolutely no. What attracted me the most about WoW was the raiding and PvE content. While I don’t care if people collect pets, transmog or mounts, I don’t believe the game needs to focus more on that type of content. WoW is an mmorpg and group content should receive exponentially more attention than solo content. I’m not saying blizzard should take the axe to solo content, but that they should primarily focus on the big 3, raiding, dungeons and PvP. There are countless social mmo’s out there that focus on solo content and collecting stuff. They do a much better job than WoW, but WoW’s raiding will always be better than every other mmorpg IMO.

[Nerovar]

the issue wasn't so much hiring old hardcore players. it was putting them in positions of power. ion was a wonderful boss designer. but he sucks balls when it comes to designing a full game.

When you start approaching a game world that is supposed to offer a holistic RPG experience like a mathematical problem, you will end up with current WoW where every activity feeds into this giant equation that effectively boils down to a function for your player power.

Nothing in this game can exist for its own sake anymore and because of that nothing is designed to stand on its own legs and provide a fun experience. I don't know if this is rooted in a lack of confidence in the work of their own devs or because they don't want to be wasteful with their ressources (I think Ion said that they won't do Legion style class content because it is "wasted" if most players don't play through every campaign). It seems like to them content is only successful if most or all players engage with it. The easiest way to do that is to attach unspecific universally desired rewards (like AP or some currencies) to that content which makes it necessary for your player progression. Naturally, everyone will do world quests if they're the biggest source of AP and everyone will do Torghast if it's your only way to get "legendaries". Therefor these are examples of successful content.

This is how you end up with a bland experience where lore, class fantasy, challenge and reward structure all become subservient to what is effectively economic concerns. Everything we see in the game today like world quests, torghast, covenants etc. are derivatives of previous forms of content molten down into this unspecific mush so that every class/spec/faction/race can (or rather must) play it because that is the most efficient way to design content. The problem is that when you ask players what (designed) experiences were memorable to them, it's usually class specific and/or not tied to power progression like class quests, suramar, artifacts, mage tower, green fire, old legendary quests (though usually not limited to one class) etc.