Hiring People from the Elitist Jerks site was a mistake.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Funny how we can't even agree on simple things like this. Is it raid or die?

For the record how much casual content there is and how much relevant casual content there is, is a different matter. Like what's the endgame for professions? Do you crossbreed plants for your garden? Do you do ocean fishing? Do you decipher teasure maps?

You can't say the game is not made for raiders if the main story is finished in raids and mythic only phases are canon.

Wether the raiders like the content they are given is a different matter.

Yes the game is made for raiders it always has been.

You want to see where the ony quest line goes? You have to raid.

You want to see illidan at all? You have to raid.

You want to learn about the Titans or see how arthas ends? You have to raid.

The only difference is that back before mop there was only really raid content and dungeons for end game (daily’s to I guess) where post mop not counting Wod we have had little extra things none raiders can take part in even if a lot of that stuff isn’t the best.

[rrayy]

Ion and crew are awesome at systems and spreadsheets and metrics and numbers.

They are horrible at fun.

Ion has engineered the perfect game. Now if they could only engineer some fun...

They dio engineer fun. What you really mean "If they could only engineer what "I" find fun". Fun is subjective and you are not the sole arbiter of it.

[Wangming]

Again, tell us what good and doable endgame PvE should be? You keep bitching and cant even say what it should be.
How do you make daily quests, pet battles, professions etc. endgame?

I hear you. But the thing is, even I get tired of always bringing up FFXIV. There is no specific endgame there. It is what you want to do. Sure, you have raids but you also have ocean fishing (group content for fishers with exclusive pets, achievement and mount). One of the best gears you can get is from crafting. There are indeed regular triple triad tournaments (like if Hearthstone would be playable ingame). There are entire subreddits dedicated to how to crossbreed plant seeds in the garden if you are lucky to get a housing plot. Hell you can fuck around just by completing the sightseeing log and turning it into paintings for your wall. Or decipher treasure maps you get during gathering hoping to open portals to the treasure vaults. Or you can just breed racing chocobos for currency at the Gold Saucer (Permanent Darkmoon Faire).
And my favorite part is: Since the main story is told in the dungeons, you aren't really pressured into grinding raid gear if you want to continue.

And this is all I want to say regarding the matter. I sound like a goddamn telemarketer. Ugh.

[Sorshen]

You people said the same thing about Ghostcrawler and now you're crying for him. I too have some problems with some of the last expansions, but things evolve, and they're never gonna be able make everyone happy. Make peace with that.

[Tiwack]

I'm sure collectors and new players alike would appreciate a small thing like dropchances added to the stuff they're trying to collect but EJs serve their corporate masters that always want more bait and retention mechanisms in the game making it the antithesis to such a suggestion to even come up. Like when Fallen Charger goes from 10% drop chance on PTR to 1% on live without a single patchnote as we're not supposed to see anything going on behind the curtains ie. how the sausage gets made, we're just supposed to pay-up and like it too

[Revamp Man]

I'm sure collectors and new players alike would appreciate a small thing like dropchances added to the stuff they're trying to collect but EJs serve their corporate masters that always want more bait and retention mechanisms in the game making it the antithesis to such a suggestion to even come up. Like when Fallen Charger goes from 10% drop chance on PTR to 1% on live without a single patchnote as we're not supposed to see anything going on behind the curtains ie. how the sausage gets made, we're just supposed to pay-up and like it too

Proof??? Or is it just because it doesn’t drop every tenth kill

[Elias1337]

They should had hired from casual communities like pet/mount collectors and stuff so they keep the game more user friendly to new players and absolute newbies so it grows organically and not by keeping hard core players that were already getting old.

I liked the Elitist Jerks website because I wanted to be optimal at raiding but those people banned you for the slightest excuse so it was a huge mistake respecting that for a game that first became successful for being "user friendly Everquest".

Except of fact that current expansions are most casual friendly out of all previous expansions before Legion.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm sure collectors and new players alike would appreciate a small thing like dropchances added to the stuff they're trying to collect but EJs serve their corporate masters that always want more bait and retention mechanisms in the game making it the antithesis to such a suggestion to even come up. Like when Fallen Charger goes from 10% drop chance on PTR to 1% on live without a single patchnote as we're not supposed to see anything going on behind the curtains ie. how the sausage gets made, we're just supposed to pay-up and like it too

Collectors also want items what they collect to have value. If if you eventualy get everything you want there is no point collecting in first place becouse nothing holds any value.

[Icelin]

This is WoW not fucking Stardew Valley.

There are whole zones dedicated to farming vanity items.
What the fuck else do "casual" people need?

We have zones for casual farming, story-mode difficulty for raids, each covenant has their own special building to fuck with, you can farm like 8000 mounts/transmogs throughtout like 15 years of WoW content, pet battles, even world quests and extra reputations you can farm.

WoW is a combat based game, always was, always will be.
What else do you need?
Literally, what else do you need? Casuals can access literally every part of the game if you don't care about difficulty.

So four outfits for 8-10 months worth of content is classified as enough? Four outfits? With different colour variants... pretty sure that's what we are getting again. Four outfits.. for each covenant. Maybe two mounts? Or was it one for launch? (Covenant rewards) Different colour variants. I think with this patch we got one mount to work towards? Covenant specifics again but I know there isn't that much toys, mounts, gear that was implemented. If someone wants to take the time out to count how many were implemented this expansion and not include colour variants by all means do it.

No leisure activities? No fun fishing stuff. Archeology gone. Pet battle dungeons gone.

No big group activities or end game fun? I actually enjoyed warfronts and have expressed it several times. I also enjoyed the groups to farm the rares after the maps opened. I would put PvP in this category too.

It's no offense but I really don't understand where you are coming from...so your argument is everyone can go farm the old content? Since it's pretty obvious they gave us pretty much close to nothing for this expansion. Yet what I been hearing from other players a lot of the old raids haven't even been addressed properly. People were having problems running them. (I haven't tried. So unsure if claims true.) So even if customers wanted to do that as an option they pretty much can't. When in all reality the game has been going that long.. that most people have finished all that content already.

I keep calling this expansion the most severe content cut I have ever seen. Or consumers could go spend 60$ on another game and get how much content? How many armors? How much stuff? You see how none of this adds up. The competition in most cases, doesn't even have a subscription either.....

[dafuq]

if ur main objective is to farm pets and mounts ure in the wrong game. go play tetris or something filthy disgusting casual

[munkeyinorbit]

Again, tell us what good and doable endgame PvE should be? You keep bitching and cant even say what it should be.
How do you make daily quests, pet battles, professions etc. endgame?

You can't without destroying true endgame. What these people are saying is "I want my 252s but I want to do easy casual solo quests to get them". They don't care that this design will kill raiding and mythic plus. They don't care that people always take the path of least resistance. It's all about them and what they think they deserve.

[Bakis]

You can't without destroying true endgame. What these people are saying is "I want my 252s but I want to do easy casual solo quests to get them". They don't care that this design will kill raiding and mythic plus. They don't care that people always take the path of least resistance. It's all about them and what they think they deserve.

I think that the problem is more that said people doesnt understand their utopia is what the vast majority of concent of the game time and content is already aimed at. I dont understand how one can claim that raids and M+ is anywhere near the priority it should be. Its 7 months since the first and only raid, sorry I cant see how raiding is dominant in any way or fashion in terms of focus of content.

[Xath]

If anything past Legion is "Raid or die" to you, then you haven't played the game since Wotlk.

At which point, one needs to accept that this is how WoW has always been and people from that hardcore raiding scene have always been involved in WoW's development.

This is untrue. From BC all the way until legion you could raid log after about the first month of an expac. This is the "problem" that Ion and co set out to fix with neverending systems. They also took away flight to increase the amount of time required to spend in game doing chores. The question is whether these directives came from the top or if they were the brainchild of Ion and co.

[Lady Atia]

I think that the problem is more that said people doesnt understand their utopia is what the vast majority of concent of the game time and content is already aimed at. I dont understand how one can claim that raids and M+ is anywhere near the priority it should be. Its 7 months since the first and only raid, sorry I cant see how raiding is dominant in any way or fashion in terms of focus of content.

It's 7 months since the first and only everything this expansion. Your argument is not valid. 9.0.5 was a joke compared to past "in-between" patches. Also no one wants less raids, they should just add more casual content on top of that. Because that is what brings subs, not content consumed by 1% of all players. Even Heroic raids are only done by roughly 26% of all accounts, and that includes people who bought the achievement. Keystone Master? 20%. Again, I like "elite" content, but they should try to do more stuff for everyone, or subs will crash more and more.

[Kralljin]

This is untrue. From BC all the way until legion you could raid log after about the first month of an expac.

...Okay?
Did you read my post?

I am saying that the era from Wotlk to WoD was where WoW placed the heaviest focus on raiding it ever did.
In other words, looking at the current game and saying "This is raid or die" is plain false / ignoring that the game used to place a much bigger focus on raiding.

The question is whether these directives came from the top or if they were the brainchild of Ion and co.

I'm not going to engage this argument, but rather point out the implication of this thread:
If Ion is supposed to solely care about raiding / "Elitists", then why do raiders are compelled to engage in so much progression outside of raiding?

[MoanaLisa]

This really is an old, old argument. I believe the right people are in charge of instanced content such as raids and dungeons. I'm less sure that these same people—who tend to view the game as an engineering project rather than anything creative—are the right people to be in charge of world and more casual content. They have no doubt made the game so that casual players have stuff to do but the methodology for that was to create a seemingly endless series of finicky, mathy systems.

It's never been a secret that "game" wins out over story in WoW. Game systems at this point resemble more moving deck chairs around in different configurations instead of doing anything new. Perhaps there isn't really that much new to create after all this time with combat systems. After all, there's only so many ways to swing a sword, cast a spell, fire a gun or whatever.

After over 15 years it might be time to hire some people who can really assemble a good story and let them have a higher priority with the design. Story, done well, will keep people around. There are ways of truly advancing a story line in small chunks to keep people interested. They seem to have an inkling about that with quest chains and mini-campaigns but the story department leadership is weak and more interested in shock events to create an =EPIC= story and it still applies that game systems centered around class and combat are prioritized over story content. I don't think that mindset is healthy any longer.

Story and game should work hand in hand. I don't believe that Blizzard has the faintest clue on how to do that.

EDIT: It wouldn't hurt if they took a serious look at professions, added some a lot of depth to them, and made them a valuable relevant addition to the game with substantial rewards for putting in a lot of work and time on some project. I still believe that players should have access to all professions when it comes to that. Create deep recipes that require materials and work from multiple professions and a significant time investment. Then make the resulting work meaningful. There are plenty of examples around of single-player games and other MMO's that have players investing their time in creating crafted items that have real value in the game.

[VinylScratch]

This is untrue. From BC all the way until legion you could raid log after about the first month of an expac.

This in no way addressed what you quoted. What they were saying is that in TBC the game was "raid or die" in the sense it gets used which is you have to raid for upgrades. If you chose not to raid or do heroic dungeons, you had basically pvp and badge gear in 2.4 but you know. . . badges come from heroic dungeons and 10 man raids later in the game's lifespan. Basically, if you just leveled then coasted on daily quests you would have no gear.

This has nothing to do with raid logging which has always been the case in the game. You hit a point where it's ineffective to log in and do things aside from push pvp or farm gold. You always had this in the game from its inception. The only difference is you actually wanted to play the game and do things, it was enjoyable to play. You weren't obligated to log in because they threw in another power system you had to be on top of, or a list of chores that dictated how you played the game. Ironically for all the changes aimed at people screaming "WoW shouldn't be a job" they sure as hell turned it into one. I clock in, the game tells me these things MUST be done before this time (reset) or I will be punished by falling behind everyone else and be gimped not because of a skill gap, but because of some gimmicky system that is by design forcing me to play the game continuously. It's enough of a burden that if you fall enough behind you may as well just quit until the next hard reset.

The current game is far away from "raid or die", raiding still has the best gear (or did, unsure how PvP gear is still) and throws upgrades at you for blowing your nose. Titanforging and Corruption made it so world quest drops could actually be on par with raiding gear if you were lucky despite taking no effort to accomplish. People mistakenly think the game is still "raid or die" just because they don't want to raid and the good stuff comes from raiding, as it always will because it's a PvE focused MMO. They literally had this problem in BFA where there was no incentive to raid past challenge seeking, achievements, and cosmetics. You could get Mythic Raid gear by slamming M+.

[Lucetia]

They should had hired from casual communities like pet/mount collectors and stuff so they keep the game more user friendly to new players and absolute newbies so it grows organically and not by keeping hard core players that were already getting old.

I liked the Elitist Jerks website because I wanted to be optimal at raiding but those people banned you for the slightest excuse so it was a huge mistake respecting that for a game that first became successful for being "user friendly Everquest".

Pet/Mount Collectors didn't come until after they hired the Elitist Jerks people. EJ people were hired around BC. We didn't get pet collection/mount collection until Wrath when they came out with the new storage systems. Not sure how your comment applies to the logic you are trying to apply.

[VinylScratch]

Pet/Mount Collectors didn't come until after they hired the Elitist Jerks people. EJ people were hired around BC. We didn't get pet collection/mount collection until Wrath when they came out with the new storage systems. Not sure how your comment applies to the logic you are trying to apply.

It doesn't, it's not a reasoned argument. It's one purely from emotion. If the game is unsatisfying for people, depending on where they fall they're either going to blame the casual players for why the game is such a drag of bloated systems, or "the elitists" for why the game is such a drag. People haven't figured out that most people on both of these sides hate these things and never asked for them.

You see this when the game is more casual friendly than it ever has been and people are still crying that Blizzard is catering to the elitists, despite Blizzard once more nerfing a bunch of things within the game to be even more accessible. I really wish I could find examples of changes Blizzard made distinctly catering to the elite of the game, but aside of Mythic only phases of fights that are nothing more than an additional challenge for people who went out of their way for additional challenge but I can't. They haven't locked things behind Mythic raiding of any actual relevance to the game since Highmaul where you got a little extra story on the Mythic difficulty for Imperator.

But some people are still saying the Mage Tower was catered to the elite despite the next patch you were over its designed item level by about 40, if you didn't get the Mage Tower done in 7.3 you either were not entering it at all, or just quite frankly did not deserve it. It sucks to say, it sounds elitist as hell but that's the honest truth. There was no reason anybody who actually tried to get the Mage Tower artifact didn't have it after 7.3.5. You could target the legendary you needed to help in that fight, you were a huge item level above what it was designed around and could do it with the intro Argus gear. About the only thing more they could have done was just blanket nerfing it, but it was already nerfed by the other factors, it wasn't necessary.

[Kallisto]

When you start approaching a game world that is supposed to offer a holistic RPG experience like a mathematical problem, you will end up with current WoW where every activity feeds into this giant equation that effectively boils down to a function for your player power.

Nothing in this game can exist for its own sake anymore and because of that nothing is designed to stand on its own legs and provide a fun experience. I don't know if this is rooted in a lack of confidence in the work of their own devs or because they don't want to be wasteful with their ressources (I think Ion said that they won't do Legion style class content because it is "wasted" if most players don't play through every campaign). It seems like to them content is only successful if most or all players engage with it. The easiest way to do that is to attach unspecific universally desired rewards (like AP or some currencies) to that content which makes it necessary for your player progression. Naturally, everyone will do world quests if they're the biggest source of AP and everyone will do Torghast if it's your only way to get "legendaries". Therefor these are examples of successful content.

This is how you end up with a bland experience where lore, class fantasy, challenge and reward structure all become subservient to what is effectively economic concerns. Everything we see in the game today like world quests, torghast, covenants etc. are derivatives of previous forms of content molten down into this unspecific mush so that every class/spec/faction/race can (or rather must) play it because that is the most efficient way to design content. The problem is that when you ask players what (designed) experiences were memorable to them, it's usually class specific and/or not tied to power progression like class quests, suramar, artifacts, mage tower, green fire, old legendary quests (though usually not limited to one class) etc.

The problem is that the player base looooooooooooooooooooooooong before Ion became the head developer essentially entered the mindset of. Does it increase player power? If so it is mandatory. If not then it doesn't exist. This has been happening since Vanilla. Not something new, it's something the devs had to adapt to even back when wow was at its peak.

[tacoloco]

I'm a filthy casual. I don't raid and only run a dungeon occasionally. I think there's plenty for me to do, if I want to do it.