Warcraft 3 undead campaign is just Jailor's assets fighting against eachother

[Feanoro]

Actually it seems he is deliberately keeping himself uninformed so he can cause as much damage as possible to the overall story continuity.

Everything about him makes it crystal clear that he's an inferior writer and knows it deep down. He retcons and spitefully one ups (in his mind anyway... "Oh yeah? Scourge copied my Maldraxxus!") Metzen, out of sheer jealousy that no one was interested in anything he produced on his own. He's a very petty little asshole.

[Dellis0991]

Jailor: Dance puppets! Dance for me!

[Nork]

Some people say stuff like "shitty storyline", "Warcraft's lore died long ago', and so on. Mate, stop taking a game too seriously; they are expanding their world and sometimes you need to change some things. Stop complaining and enjoy what Blizzard is creating. I liked the plot twist about the Jailer being behind everything related to the Helm of Domination; that enrich the lore. It's so pathetic when I see people whining just because they retconned something...

[Combatbutler]

Some people say stuff like "shitty storyline", "Warcraft's lore died long ago', and so on. Mate, stop taking a game too seriously; they are expanding their world and sometimes you need to change some things. Stop complaining and enjoy what Blizzard is creating. I liked the plot twist about the Jailer being behind everything related to the Helm of Domination; that enrich the more. It's so pathetic when I see people whining just because they retconned something...

I for one love to mock bad storytelling, so I enjoy their writing. The last cut scene in particular was amazing I hadn't laughed so hard in a while.

[loras]

So Nerzhul at that time was an asset to the Jailor, right?
And he also considered Arthas his asset.
But the Dreadlords were also an asset to Denathrius, who was an asset to the jailor.
But they tried to stop Arthas from reaching the Lich King's helm.

So the jailor's asset were fighting against eachother.
Actually the whole campaign is about the Jailor's assets infighting.

Is that correct?

Not really.

Jailer assets: Helm of domination & Frostmourne, both of which were seized by Kil'jaeden and tampered with.

Ner'zhul: warped by Kil'jaeden & jailer magic, but semi independant in practice; ultimate loyalty to himself but death aligned due to corruption.

Dreadlords: Deep cover agents of the jailer, but fel-corrupted; their true loyalties were never set in stone as early as TBC they were shown to be mostly self-loyal. So let's say 50% jailer, 25% legion, 25% self in terms of loyalties.

Arthas: self loyal, death aligned but not jailer aligned after corruption.

Sylvanas: True independent before edge of night.


In lractice it roughly went as follows:
- Lich King Ner'zhul arrives, war of the spider, starts losing badly to the Nerubian empire // fel+death vs. void
- Dreadlords sent by Legion to prop him up and keep an eye on him, turning the tide in favor of the scourge// Fel+death vs. void
- Scourging of Lordaeron starts, arthas falls, razing of silvermoon, kel'thuzad summons archimonde, archimonde defeated
- Dreadlords appear surprised at Archimonde's failure, attempt to seize Lordaeron, Arthas & KT escape, sylvanas' insurrection//independant+fel+death vs. Death+independant vs. independant

Just to give a roughly accurate idea of what forces with which loyalties were facing one another.
Only in the dreadlords vs. Arthas in Lordaeron was there a jailer-influenced asset versus a jailer influenced asset, and that quickly ended in the two parting ways. Add to that consideration that Arthas and KT were at the time loyal to Ner'zhul, who defied the jailer, and that the dreadlords were fel corrupted and somewhat independant and it becomes clear that there never were two jailer assets directly opposed to one another.
Even Arthas vs. Mal'ganis consisted if a Ner'zhul-aligned+independant Arthas versus a multiple aligned Mal'ganis, of which only the latter had any loyalty to the jailer.

In conclusion: Yes the story has many flaws, but these are not part of them. By insisting that non-failures are failures you only weaken the case that can be made against genuine retcons and poor storytelling.

[Ivarr]

I liked the plot twist about the Jailer being behind everything related to the Helm of Domination; that enrich the more.

It's a plot twist, but how did it enrich anything at all? How did it put anything that preceded the Jailor into a new light? What did it mean for any of the characters? Where is the shift?

Take the plot twist of Arrival. The protagonist realises that she was the one who accepted a timeline where she got pregnant fully knowing that she would have a daughter would die of cancer at a young age and a husband who would never forgive, or even look her into the eye for doing so. That's a twist. That's something that doesn't just change what the story has been about up to that point, but it also shifts the way a character looks at life.

The Jailor came out of nowhere. At no point did he have any presence in the lore, yet he's responsible for it all. Somehow. What is the shift?

[Giannis-GR]

Shadowlands lore is fan fiction.

You cannot introduce a villain 20 years after a franchise has become mainstream and have him been responsible for every action/conspiracy/war/conflict of the past 20 years (or even MILLIONS of years lore-wise).

Note that I say "after it became mainstream". Because it is forgivable and logical to change aspects of the story from the story transitioning from an RTS with limited appeal (i.e. Warcraft 2) to a multi-billion mainstream franchise.

But when you have people buying books over 20 years (!) containing internal monologues, investing time in the lore, only to have it nullified for the "shock factor" is disrespectful.

When you have multiple writers, building a world full of interesting characters, with motivations, inner dialogues, conflicts with one another, spanning over thousands of years lore-wise... and at 2020 you simply destroy this whole story via the excuse "they were pawns and in reality they were lying to you when you were reading their internal monologues"...... makes a mockery of every prior writer....

Listen, if you try hard enough, you can justify anything. You could say the Allies and Germany were secretly in coordination at WW2. You could build up multiple theories (and people have done that).

Of course you can retroactively justify anything via "this was what was really meant etc."..

There is no WORLD of Warcraft anymore. No world-building. No in-depth conflicts involving emotion, ethical dilemmas, diverse characters.. That's why we have NO UPDATES FOR ANY RACE (!) in respect of their story.

Why build an in-depth story about all the above when you can just go to the ALTERNATE/FUTURE LIGHT-VOID DIMENSIONS to find out the Before Ones who ultimately want to destroy the multiverse and were mind-controlling the Jailer all along?


No WORLD of Warcraft anymore. Just Dragon ball Z / Marvel mini-episodes... together with new store mounts.. just to get enough $$$ until the next quarters Earnings Report...

[Overlordd]

Not really.

Jailer assets: Helm of domination & Frostmourne, both of which were seized by Kil'jaeden and tampered with.

Ner'zhul: warped by Kil'jaeden & jailer magic, but semi independant in practice; ultimate loyalty to himself but death aligned due to corruption.

Dreadlords: Deep cover agents of the jailer, but fel-corrupted; their true loyalties were never set in stone as early as TBC they were shown to be mostly self-loyal. So let's say 50% jailer, 25% legion, 25% self in terms of loyalties.

Arthas: self loyal, death aligned but not jailer aligned after corruption.

Sylvanas: True independent before edge of night.


In lractice it roughly went as follows:
- Lich King Ner'zhul arrives, war of the spider, starts losing badly to the Nerubian empire // fel+death vs. void
- Dreadlords sent by Legion to prop him up and keep an eye on him, turning the tide in favor of the scourge// Fel+death vs. void
- Scourging of Lordaeron starts, arthas falls, razing of silvermoon, kel'thuzad summons archimonde, archimonde defeated
- Dreadlords appear surprised at Archimonde's failure, attempt to seize Lordaeron, Arthas & KT escape, sylvanas' insurrection//independant+fel+death vs. Death+independant vs. independant

Just to give a roughly accurate idea of what forces with which loyalties were facing one another.
Only in the dreadlords vs. Arthas in Lordaeron was there a jailer-influenced asset versus a jailer influenced asset, and that quickly ended in the two parting ways. Add to that consideration that Arthas and KT were at the time loyal to Ner'zhul, who defied the jailer, and that the dreadlords were fel corrupted and somewhat independant and it becomes clear that there never were two jailer assets directly opposed to one another.
Even Arthas vs. Mal'ganis consisted if a Ner'zhul-aligned+independant Arthas versus a multiple aligned Mal'ganis, of which only the latter had any loyalty to the jailer.

In conclusion: Yes the story has many flaws, but these are not part of them. By insisting that non-failures are failures you only weaken the case that can be made against genuine retcons and poor storytelling.

So basically it all came down to the Jailer just saying YOLO and risking thing on random occurances.
Or did he somehow manage to convince Kil'Jaeden to put Ner'zhul's soul into the helmet?

What a trash.

[McNeil]

One thing I thought of today: in the human campaign in Reign of Chaos, Mal'Ganis keeps referring the ''Dark Lord of the Death'' to Arthas as the one being in charge of the undead. I thought he meant the Lich King but I guess he could have been talking about the Jailor instead?

[Nerovar]

Shadowlands lore is fan fiction.

You cannot introduce a villain 20 years after a franchise has become mainstream and have him been responsible for every action/conspiracy/war/conflict of the past 20 years (or even MILLIONS of years lore-wise).

I mean, you can do that but it's usually part of some kind of soft reboot and not done in an ongoing story. The part that's really insulting to me is that they're trying to just sneak a change like this into the franchise while expecting everyone to accept this without flinching. Like back in the TBC days Metzen at least had the decency to admit that he simply forgot about some of the Eredar story when he retconned it. Now they're making even more monumental changes to the lore like it's nothing. It's just bizarre to me.

One thing I thought of today: in the human campaign in Reign of Chaos, Mal'Ganis keeps referring the ''Dark Lord of the Death'' to Arthas as the one being in charge of the undead. I thought he meant the Lich King but I guess he could have been talking about the Jailor instead?

Yeah, maybe Bolvar also was talking about the Shadowlands Jailer back in WotLK when he said:
"Place the crown upon my head, Tirion. Forevermore I will be the Jailer of the Damned."

[Nork]

I mean, you can do that but it's usually part of some kind of soft reboot and not done in an ongoing story. The part that's really insulting to me is that they're trying to just sneak a change like this into the franchise while expecting everyone to accept this without flinching. Like back in the TBC days Metzen at least had the decency to admit that he simply forgot about some of the Eredar story when he retconned it. Now they're making even more monumental changes to the lore like it's nothing. It's just bizarre to me.



Yeah, maybe Bolvar also was talking about the Shadowlands Jailer back in WotLK when he said:
"Place the crown upon my head, Tirion. Forevermore I will be the Jailer of the Damned."

Where is the problem with changing Warcraft's lore? Stop whining, please.

[Aresk]

I mean, you can do that but it's usually part of some kind of soft reboot and not done in an ongoing story. The part that's really insulting to me is that they're trying to just sneak a change like this into the franchise while expecting everyone to accept this without flinching. Like back in the TBC days Metzen at least had the decency to admit that he simply forgot about some of the Eredar story when he retconned it. Now they're making even more monumental changes to the lore like it's nothing. It's just bizarre to me.

How is making dreadlords into covert agents more monumental a change than making the Draenor natives into alien outcasts of a race who were corrupted by the guy whose goal is to kill everything? Not to mention gutting the eredar as demons capable of corrupting a titan to egotistical pawns willing to sell out their world for power. The entire Burning Legion power dynamic changed with that retcon, whereas the dreadlords had always been seen as somewhat separate from the rest of the Legion, conniving, and duplicitous.

[Nerovar]

How is making dreadlords into covert agents more monumental a change than making the Draenor natives into alien outcasts of a race who were corrupted by the guy whose goal is to kill everything? Not to mention gutting the eredar as demons capable of corrupting a titan to egotistical pawns willing to sell out their world for power. The entire Burning Legion power dynamic changed with that retcon, whereas the dreadlords had always been seen as somewhat separate from the rest of the Legion, conniving, and duplicitous.

The eredar retcon (while being completely unnecessary) really didn't change all that much. Instead of getting corrupted by cunning demon race A, Sargeras got corrupted by cunning demon race B. The eredar having a past as non-demons doesn't change the power dynamics much either since they still became the most powerful demons and the chief lieutenants of Sargeras.

Also they didn't just make Dreadlords "covert agents" - they made them the covert agents of a new god they shoehorned into the lore who's incidentally responsible for the creation of the Burning Legion and the Scourge because he's just that evil and clever whereas Sargeras, Kil'Jaeden and the Lich King (who we have already beaten) are all just imbeciles compared to him and his cosmic 5d chess.

Also Kil'jaeden, Gul'dan and Ner'zhul stole their necromantic magic from the Jailer and the Scourge plagiarized Maldraxxus so thoroughly that they even share the same architecture (despite the fact that original Scourge architecture was a result of the combined cultural influences of Tol'vir, Nerubians and the Scourge).

Also Kel'Thuzad apparently was loyal to the Jailer all along despite the fact that Ner'zhul was in his mind and threatened to turn him into a mindless ghoul if he was ever disloyal to him and somehow he (a Jailer agent) warned Arthas about the Dreadlords (Jailer agents).

Come on dude. Why even pretend that this shit is on the same level?

[loras]

So basically it all came down to the Jailer just saying YOLO and risking thing on random occurances.
Or did he somehow manage to convince Kil'Jaeden to put Ner'zhul's soul into the helmet?

What a trash.

You'd be surprised how little certainty exists in the real world, that does not seem to be different for the warcraft universe.

There's always risk, never certainty.

Most likely he had various assets that he manipulated into various gambits at various places and times with variable amounts of succes - and as each succes or failure gave him more information of a sort he might use that to inform his next decision, potentially making it better.

Despite the grandstanding of many characters in WoW none of them posess anything close to omnipotence or omniscience, so you get something analogous to real life: A lot of characters that consider themselves superior in some way or another, and that have too much power to be corrected by most around them no matter how stupid they act.

In that sense the Jailer seems wiser than most, as by his very nature he is extremely limited in his range of motion. That forces him to be more subtle and cunning, as he is / was simply unable to act unimpeded.

I doubt they can write him that well, but if they can then that would truly make his a story of "turning your chains into weapons"; by being forced into inaction he is forced into making every thing that he can still do count. Forced into actually exhibiting some form of wisdon.

If written well that can make him a lot more interesting than the usual blustering superpowered creatures we encounter.

But as i said: It really depends on the execution.

[Razorice]

sounds so bad when you put it that way. lol.

[niilokin]

The eredar retcon (while being completely unnecessary) really didn't change all that much. Instead of getting corrupted by cunning demon race A, Sargeras got corrupted by cunning demon race B. The eredar having a past as non-demons doesn't change the power dynamics much either since they still became the most powerful demons and the chief lieutenants of Sargeras.

Also they didn't just make Dreadlords "covert agents" - they made them the covert agents of a new god they shoehorned into the lore who's incidentally responsible for the creation of the Burning Legion and the Scourge because he's just that evil and clever whereas Sargeras, Kil'Jaeden and the Lich King (who we have already beaten) are all just imbeciles compared to him and his cosmic 5d chess.

Also Kil'jaeden, Gul'dan and Ner'zhul stole their necromantic magic from the Jailer and the Scourge plagiarized Maldraxxus so thoroughly that they even share the same architecture (despite the fact that original Scourge architecture was a result of the combined cultural influences of Tol'vir, Nerubians and the Scourge).

Also Kel'Thuzad apparently was loyal to the Jailer all along despite the fact that Ner'zhul was in his mind and threatened to turn him into a mindless ghoul if he was ever disloyal to him and somehow he (a Jailer agent) warned Arthas about the Dreadlords (Jailer agents).

Come on dude. Why even pretend that this shit is on the same level?

Don't forget Ulthalesh, a super-necromantic weapon that was made by Sargeras himself. So Sargeras too was already proficient with said arts.

[Wilian]

Indeed. Repeatedly it has been stated that a death in the Shadowlands is Oblivion. Non-existence. A removal of your everything, from everything.
But smoothbrains can't comprehend words longer than 2 syllables so of course it's "uhhh death is DEATH but death in DEATH is DEATHh?!"

So why are there sentient undead in Shadowlands. Being undead in Shadowlands implies dying there and being raised after in one form or another. Where does their conciousness come from if their death wholly destroyed anything they were?

[Aresk]

The eredar retcon (while being completely unnecessary) really didn't change all that much. Instead of getting corrupted by cunning demon race A, Sargeras got corrupted by cunning demon race B. The eredar having a past as non-demons doesn't change the power dynamics much either since they still became the most powerful demons and the chief lieutenants of Sargeras.

Also they didn't just make Dreadlords "covert agents" - they made them the covert agents of a new god they shoehorned into the lore who's incidentally responsible for the creation of the Burning Legion and the Scourge because he's just that evil and clever whereas Sargeras, Kil'Jaeden and the Lich King (who we have already beaten) are all just imbeciles compared to him and his cosmic 5d chess.

Also Kil'jaeden, Gul'dan and Ner'zhul stole their necromantic magic from the Jailer and the Scourge plagiarized Maldraxxus so thoroughly that they even share the same architecture (despite the fact that original Scourge architecture was a result of the combined cultural influences of Tol'vir, Nerubians and the Scourge).

Also Kel'Thuzad apparently was loyal to the Jailer all along despite the fact that Ner'zhul was in his mind and threatened to turn him into a mindless ghoul if he was ever disloyal to him and somehow he (a Jailer agent) warned Arthas about the Dreadlords (Jailer agents).

Come on dude. Why even pretend that this shit is on the same level?

Honestly? Because Metzen's retcon in TBC was far more impactful on my perception of the game universe than attributing the dreadlord's actions to some secret entity that was never before mentioned. Dreadlords came from somewhere, and that place being the Shadowlands, while changing their demonic nature, does no more harm than changing the eredar's demonic nature. Indeed, the dreadlord characterization hasn't changed, whereas the eredar as clever manipulators was changed to that of short-sighted egomaniacs. One of the most significant threats in Warcraft, that being Sargeras, went from being the victim of demonic influence to an insane person defying his fellow titans out of fear.

I'll give you the KT retcon is absurd, but so is turning Akama into a malformed, fugitive goat man whose loyalty to Draenor changes from "our ancestral home" to "that place we crashed." Having Maldraxxi architecture resemble the Scourge in order to more thematically tie the Scourge to the Shadowlands doesn't, in my mind, trump turning the nearly extinct natives of Draenor into eredar because they need to be prettier as a playable race.

I must have missed the new lore where Denathrius is responsible for the Burning Legion's formation, given the lore prior to this was that the dreadlords told Sargeras of the void lords' existence, but the decisions to shatter Mardum and create the Legion were his. Likewise, I haven't seen any lore stating that Kil'jaeden or Gul'dan stole anything from the Shadowlands; Ner'zhul's necromancy was "gifted" to him via the Helm, so I wouldn't characterize that as theft. I have seen a lot of people pointing to information about the nathrezim having an association with Denathrius and then spinning theories about how everything must then be connected despite a lack of substantiating lore for it. And even if the dreadlords were attempting to manipulate Sargeras for Denathrius' benefit and even if Kil'jaeden and/or Gul'dan got their necromantic knowledge directly from the Shadowlands, I fail to see the retcon in it; the lore never explicitly stated that the dreadlords had any motivation in Sargeras' turning, nor did it say how Kil'jaeden gained any knowledge of necromancy (while warlock magics--which were akin to necromancy at the time--were innate to eredar back in WC3, Metzen is the one that retconned that, so Shadowlands would just be filling in a void that the TBC retcon left).

While I understand that people have reason to be dissatisfied with the current story, and I can see that lore here seems more significant as it's fresher, I continue to maintain that the implications of this are less impactful than retcons made in the past.

[Nerovar]

Honestly? Because Metzen's retcon in TBC was far more impactful on my perception of the game universe than attributing the dreadlord's actions to some secret entity that was never before mentioned. Dreadlords came from somewhere, and that place being the Shadowlands, while changing their demonic nature, does no more harm than changing the eredar's demonic nature. Indeed, the dreadlord characterization hasn't changed, whereas the eredar as clever manipulators was changed to that of short-sighted egomaniacs. One of the most significant threats in Warcraft, that being Sargeras, went from being the victim of demonic influence to an insane person defying his fellow titans out of fear.

I'll give you the KT retcon is absurd, but so is turning Akama into a malformed, fugitive goat man whose loyalty to Draenor changes from "our ancestral home" to "that place we crashed." Having Maldraxxi architecture resemble the Scourge in order to more thematically tie the Scourge to the Shadowlands doesn't, in my mind, trump turning the nearly extinct natives of Draenor into eredar because they need to be prettier as a playable race.

Again, you'll hear no argument from me defending the Draenei retcon or TBC's lore but in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really change things. Sargeras was still corrupted by demons. While it somewhat cheapens/demystifies the eredar, they are still immensely powerful and intelligent demons. Sure, the root cause for Sargeras' madness changed from demon-induced depression to demon-induced anxiety but that part is really not that significant in my eyes. Also the Nathrezim were always at least partially the reason for Sargeras' fall.

I must have missed the new lore where Denathrius is responsible for the Burning Legion's formation, given the lore prior to this was that the dreadlords told Sargeras of the void lords' existence, but the decisions to shatter Mardum and create the Legion were his.

I guess the Nathrezim, a race of master infiltrators and deceivers, just underwent the transformation into demons for the sake of it and accidentally drove Sargeras into madness, causing him to start a demonic crusade with the Nathrezim on board?

And as previously discussed, our position within the plane of Disorder is proceeding flawlessly. Consuming fel energy is not a pleasant process, but a necessary one.

The deception you have architected will bear fruit in the ages to come.

I really wonder what this is referring to.

Likewise, I haven't seen any lore stating that Kil'jaeden or Gul'dan stole anything from the Shadowlands; Ner'zhul's necromancy was "gifted" to him via the Helm, so I wouldn't characterize that as theft. I have seen a lot of people pointing to information about the nathrezim having an association with Denathrius and then spinning theories about how everything must then be connected despite a lack of substantiating lore for it. And even if the dreadlords were attempting to manipulate Sargeras for Denathrius' benefit and even if Kil'jaeden and/or Gul'dan got their necromantic knowledge directly from the Shadowlands, I fail to see the retcon in it; the lore never explicitly stated that the dreadlords had any motivation in Sargeras' turning, nor did it say how Kil'jaeden gained any knowledge of necromancy (while warlock magics--which were akin to necromancy at the time--were innate to eredar back in WC3, Metzen is the one that retconned that, so Shadowlands would just be filling in a void that the TBC retcon left).

I mean, the retcon is pretty clear-cut. Nathrezim aren't demons. Every expanded story (like their plans of infiltration etc.) resulting from that retcon is also consequentially a retcon since it couldn't have been part of the original continuity. Their motivation for corrupting Sargeras couldn't have been rooted in Denathrius' plans as they previously were primordial demons born of the Twisting Nether and not the Shadowlands.

In regards to the necromancy point: previous lore pretty firmly established the Legion as the origin of necromancy. In WC2 it is even stated that Gul'dan was the one who first developed necromancy as its own school of magic (at least from his point of view) under the guidance of Kil'jaeden.

In pursuit of furthering our magical resources, I opened a new school of magical discipline that became known as Necromancy. We began training young Warlocks in the arcane mysteries of life and death. Again, with tutelage from the Daemon Kil'jaeden, these Necrolytes delved into the dark arts, eventually gaining power enough to animate and control the bodies of the newly dead.

Shadowlands introduced the concept that Maldraxxus (the place where souls randomly choose to walk around as skeletons) is the birthplace of necromantic magic. So if necromancy originates from Maldraxxus and the Legion/Gul'dan use necromancy, this effectively means that Kil'jaeden had to have somehow stolen this power from Maldraxxus first only to whisper it into Gul'dan's ears.

Also the retcon about demons being linked to necromancy wasn't introduced in TBC (back then Brutallus' blood was enough to raise Madrigosa as an undead fel dragon).

[GreenJesus]

Some people say stuff like "shitty storyline", "Warcraft's lore died long ago', and so on. Mate, stop taking a game too seriously; they are expanding their world and sometimes you need to change some things. Stop complaining and enjoy what Blizzard is creating. I liked the plot twist about the Jailer being behind everything related to the Helm of Domination; that enrich the lore. It's so pathetic when I see people whining just because they retconned something...

Maybe because by changing "some things" they sour the story of what used to be there. What if Blizzard 5 years from now said "Acktually, Anduin's body was taken over by a dreadlord back in MoP. He actually died when Garrosh hit him into the gong. Everything he has been doing since then was following the Jailer's plan as a foil to Sylvanas." Ironically, that doesn't sound that crazy considering what they did with Sylvanas.