[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[dribbles]

So you basically don't care what damage you do to Ireland in order to get your "pure" Brexit? Or how that damage spills over elsewhere?

Basically you don't care that people will die, as long as you get the Brexit you want?

Well, the masks really off with this post. You are sickening. My only hope is that the people like Boris that are pulling the strings aren't as dangerous as you. Which doesn't fill me full of hope, sadly.

The UK are not going to impose a hard border in Ireland or on a sea off of Ireland and as such will not break the GFA. It's the EU that may do that and cause the damage you care so much about.

There are several easy solutions for the EU.

1. Impose a border between Ireland and the EU.
2. Ireland leaves the EU.
3. Continue extending the special exemption for all UK goods into NI in a semi permanent never ending transition.
4. Implement and interpret the WA in good faith as intended.

"no deal Brexit is coming"...

Have I gone back in time by a few years? Do I need to warn people of something called SARS-CoV-2? Can I go ahead and make some strategic investments?

Brexit 2.0 is currently on the PTR, release candidate is soon.

[Kallisto]

Unless you're a Brexiteer of course and your secret goal is to pry Ireland out of the EU somehow.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner. This is what the brexiteers want. An RoI that either leaves or is forced out of the EU (Look at Dribbles getting his rubles with the first two options there. Essentially force Ireland out of the EU). Many in the British upper class have not forgiven Ireland for daring to leave the UK in the first place in the 1920s. The whole though of it being independent and not reliant on Westminster to survive is an insult to them. That's also why they go "Well maybe Ireland could rejoin the UK under a more federal system." blah blah.

Which is basically saying "Well the woman I beat up daily, is full of bruises, cuts, broken bones and finally left me should come back home and I totally promise this time unlike the 800 other times I made the promise that I won't hurt you again.". RoI isn't stupid enough to fall for it again.

[Fuiking]

The UK are not going to impose a hard border in Ireland or on a sea off of Ireland and as such will not break the GFA. It's the EU that may do that and cause the damage you care so much about.

There are several easy solutions for the EU.

1. Impose a border between Ireland and the EU.
2. Ireland leaves the EU.
3. Continue extending the special exemption for all UK goods into NI in a semi permanent never ending transition.
4. Implement and interpret the WA in good faith as intended.



Brexit 2.0 is currently on the PTR, release candidate is soon.

Why are you brits such dickheads to Ireland? Isnt 280 years of abusing the irish enough? Want to add more?

[caervek]

To be fair, I think the EU was right in disregarding the CTA, because that is an internal, domestic issue in the UK.

I highly doubt the EU are that stupid, there's so many of them, and Ireland are IN the EU so would have been able to bring the issue up. The people on both sides negotiating the WA would have known full well it was impossible to implement (hell it was obvious to us laypeople) they just wanted to try and pass the hand grenade off in the hope they would be in a different job when it went off, because politicians gonna politic.

And given that the situation is shit, I mean... what other options are there?

No good ones that's for damn sure lol.

It's crazy but the only option on the table right now seems to be "pass and hope another player does something", the UK gov don't want to violate the CTA or the GFA. The RoI gov don't want to violate the CTA or the GFA. I think both govs are genuinely just hoping that if they do nothing long enough the EU will lay the Smackdown so they have somebody to pin the blame on when the proverbial shit hits the fan

[Slant]

The UK are not going to impose a hard border in Ireland or on a sea off of Ireland and as such will not break the GFA. It's the EU that may do that and cause the damage you care so much about.

There are several easy solutions for the EU.

1. Impose a border between Ireland and the EU.
2. Ireland leaves the EU.
3. Continue extending the special exemption for all UK goods into NI in a semi permanent never ending transition.
4. Implement and interpret the WA in good faith as intended.



Brexit 2.0 is currently on the PTR, release candidate is soon.

The UK is responsible for either implementing a border in the Irish Sea or forcing the EU's hand in erecting a border on the island of Ireland. Make no mistake, nobody on the Irish island thinks the EU is to blame for that. All of them know where well where the stink is coming from. You can pretend as much as you like in your little English village, but once bombs go off in London, it won't matter much what you think...

There will never be a border between the RoI and the EU. Nor will RoI leave the EU. That's just complete nonsense. RoI is a full member of the EU and they have stated repeatedly that their membership to the EU with all its privileges and obligations is not going to be compromised by the antics of Westminster.

The extensions will run out soon. The EU has zero interest nor would it gain anything from indefinitely living in a temporary state of suspense with the UK. That's how we got into this mess in the first place, playing along with the antics of the UK.

Good faith goes both ways. Since the UK has demonstrated to have no honour in keeping its word, it's pretty rich for someone like you to expect the EU to just give in and let the UK do what it wants, which is what you really think about when you say "good faith". Ain't gonna happen. The EU is far to big to let local neighbours dictate how it runs its borders.

[Kronik85]

Ding ding ding, we have a winner. This is what the brexiteers want. An RoI that either leaves or is forced out of the EU (Look at Dribbles getting his rubles with the first two options there. Essentially force Ireland out of the EU). Many in the British upper class have not forgiven Ireland for daring to leave the UK in the first place in the 1920s. The whole though of it being independent and not reliant on Westminster to survive is an insult to them. That's also why they go "Well maybe Ireland could rejoin the UK under a more federal system." blah blah.

Which is basically saying "Well the woman I beat up daily, is full of bruises, cuts, broken bones and finally left me should come back home and I totally promise this time unlike the 800 other times I made the promise that I won't hurt you again.". RoI isn't stupid enough to fall for it again.

Incredibly bad take. The English on the whole don't give a fuck about nor understand NI or the ROI. That's the issue, not some weird ass need to keep it as a dependency.

Brexiteers do not care about the UK as a concept, like most nationalist wet dreams it wants to achieve a state of isolationism and independence from external forces.

If BoJo and his cadre could, they would abandon NI in a heartbeat, this notion that he wants to use NI to crowbar the RoI out of the EU is ludicrous. He will just kick the can down the road as long as he can or until someone else fixes the problem for him.

[Slant]

I highly doubt the EU are that stupid, there's so many of them, and Ireland are IN the EU so would have been able to bring the issue up. The people on both sides negotiating the WA would have known full well it was impossible to implement (hell it was obvious to us laypeople) they just wanted to try and pass the hand grenade off in the hope they would be in a different job when it went off, because politicians gonna politic.



No good ones that's for damn sure lol.

It's crazy but the only option on the table right now seems to be "pass and hope another player does something", the UK gov don't want to violate the CTA or the GFA. The RoI gov don't want to violate the CTA or the GFA. I think both govs are genuinely just hoping that if they do nothing long enough the EU will lay the Smackdown so they have somebody to pin the blame on when the proverbial shit hits the fan

Oh, I'm 100% sure everyone on the EU side saw that problem. But knowing about it and doing the due diligence for the other side, that's just not how negotiations work. At some point you have to assume the other side knows what they're doing. Do you know a car sales man that ever went to the customer and went "Oh, dude, really, you can't afford this car and this lease, you should not make this deal, honestly..."

I don't. No car salesman in the history of car dealerships has gotten far in his career acting like that.

I'm honestly not sure what the solution is, either. Mine would have been to not do Brexit in the first place, if not for all the other reasons, then for this. GFA was created pretty much with the EU in mind. It's like... we have this thing in Germany, if you enter a contract that makes certain assumptions (say your steel sheets don't rust) and it turns out that the steel sheets do rust, the entire contract is null and void and gets reversed. GFA is kinda like that, it was made with the assumption that Schengen (or similar implementations on the UK side) would make a border irrelevant and thus there isn't really a reason to fight over what nationality you're under, because who gives a fuck what the street signs say, eh?

Ideally, strictly from a legal point of view, GFA would have been invalidated on the date the UK left the EU. Nobody thought that a possibility during the GFA time, but ideally that should have been a clause in the treaty.

What to do?

I'd throw up the border and see what happens, to be honest. If NI goes up in flames, so be it. It's outside the EU external border and thus BY DEFINITION not our problem. And despite what people in the world think, the EU doesn't exist to solve other people's problems for them. It exists so the EU member states can solve their problems together. And right now the relationship with the UK is one of those problems.

[Gorsameth]

The UK are not going to impose a hard border in Ireland or on a sea off of Ireland and as such will not break the GFA. It's the EU that may do that and cause the damage you care so much about.

There are several easy solutions for the EU.

1. Impose a border between Ireland and the EU.
2. Ireland leaves the EU.
3. Continue extending the special exemption for all UK goods into NI in a semi permanent never ending transition.
4. Implement and interpret the WA in good faith as intended.



Brexit 2.0 is currently on the PTR, release candidate is soon.

There is a document signed by the EU and the UK that says the UK will put a border in the Irish Sea.

If the UK wants to ignore their own international treaties that they recently signed that is their prerogative as a sovereign country. Just as its the rest of the worlds prerogative to ostracize the UK if it goes through with it.
And again, we know what happened last time Boris publicly considered doing this.

(not to mention that the government would probably be taken to court in the UK by any number of UK citizens and/or companies over breaking their own law by refusing to implement the WA).

[dribbles]

There is a document signed by the EU and the UK that says the UK will put a border in the Irish Sea.

If the UK wants to ignore their own international treaties that they recently signed that is their prerogative as a sovereign country. Just as its the rest of the worlds prerogative to ostracize the UK if it goes through with it.
And again, we know what happened last time Boris publicly considered doing this.

(not to mention that the government would probably be taken to court in the UK by any number of UK citizens and/or companies over breaking their own law by refusing to implement the WA).

I'm sure there are several documents signed by the EU and the UK. The problem with them is in the interpretation.

Specifically the one causing all the hassle says that goods that are in danger of entering the EU internal market from the UK via NI need to be checked. The EU's interpretation is that everything is a danger and must be checked, of course the UK position is that very little is a danger and hardly anything needs to be checked.

Without sensible compromise by the EU, are a few UK sausages really a threat?, the UK has no choice but to withdraw from the WA as is legally provided for in that agreement.

If the EU behave true to form there will be, fingers X on my part, no compromise and bring on that sweet sweet no deal Brexit 2.0 as a result, we should have done that from the very beginning.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

are a few UK sausages really a threat?

A few tainted steaks caused a decade-long import ban on UK beef pretty much across the world back in the 90s when it turned out British farmers had been feeding their cows with brains, and those steaks started killing people with BSE.

[caervek]

I'm honestly not sure what the solution is, either. Mine would have been to not do Brexit in the first place.

That would have been the best solution for sure, pity our current PM changed his mind on having a confirmatory vote before leaving (I mean, it's also a pity he changed his mind on the UK staying in the single market after leaving, but nobody ever accused him of being honest :P).

GFA is kinda like that, it was made with the assumption that Schengen (or similar implementations on the UK side) would make a border irrelevant and thus there isn't really a reason to fight over what nationality you're under, because who gives a fuck what the street signs say, eh?

I'm pretty sure the CTA does completely cover that (at least as it pertains to RoI/UK issues), also I could be wrong but I though Ireland wasn't even part of Schengen?

I'd throw up the border and see what happens, to be honest. If NI goes up in flames, so be it. It's outside the EU external border and thus BY DEFINITION not our problem.

Problem is, the UK isn't going to put a hard border between RoI/NI, and RoI aren't going to do it, because in the face of Brexit both have fully reiterated their commitment to the CTA (and thus the paradox rolls on lol).

A few tainted steaks caused a decade-long import ban on UK beef pretty much across the world back in the 90s when it turned out British farmers had been feeding their cows with brains, and those steaks started killing people with BSE.

Yeah but nobody has to worry about that happening again, as the Brexiteers can't feed the cows what they don't have xD

[Slant]

I'm sure there are several documents signed by the EU and the UK. The problem with them is in the interpretation.

Specifically the one causing all the hassle says that goods that are in danger of entering the EU internal market from the UK via NI need to be checked. The EU's interpretation is that everything is a danger and must be checked, of course the UK position is that very little is a danger and hardly anything needs to be checked.

Without sensible compromise by the EU, are a few UK sausages really a threat?, the UK has no choice but to withdraw from the WA as is legally provided for in that agreement.

If the EU behave true to form there will be, fingers X on my part, no compromise and bring on that sweet sweet no deal Brexit 2.0 as a result, we should have done that from the very beginning.

Someone must have forgotten that I love digging through legal texts just to show them up... alright, here we go:

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...=EN#d1e32-92-1

From the preamble (Dribs, this is a summary of intent meant to help guide interpretations of the legal text it preambles.. read this sentence again, aloud, to make sure you understood what I just said. I'll spell it out: THIS IS WHAT LAWYERS USE TO INTERPRET THE FOLLOWING LEGAL TEXT. With me so far? Good, carry on.)

MINDFUL that the rights and obligations of Ireland under the rules of the Union's internal market and customs union must be fully respected,

Just pointing this out, because this is not implying, not interpretation... this is outright stating that Ireland (who signed this treaty) is well aware and willing to carry out the obligations the internal market expects from them, that is safekeeping the external border.

RECALLING that the Union and the United Kingdom have carried out a mapping exercise which shows that North-South cooperation relies to a significant extent on a common Union legal and policy framework,

This is the bit where the UK signed, EXPLICITELY, that they are aware that the North-South relationship of the two Irelands rely on Northern Ireland following the EU legal and policy framework. Again, no interpretation, this is LITERALLY what the UK signed and acknowledged. Do not even for a second pretend they aren't aware of this. Ignorance and incompetence is not an option here.

As for which goods are going to have to be checked, that's put down in the WA, Article 5:

No customs duties shall be payable for a good brought into Northern Ireland from another part of the United Kingdom by direct transport, notwithstanding paragraph 3, unless that good is at risk of subsequently being moved into the Union, whether by itself or forming part of another good following processing.

The UK signed that. Anything that could be moved into the EU while circumventing EU regulations is part of this. Yes, that means UK sausages. And everything else, too, that can be commercially sold at Irish supermarkets. The UK signed this. The UK was well aware of the meaning when they signed this.

And lastly... I have to admit, you're getting better. I almost missed this, but this is what you said:

"the one causing all the hassle says that goods that are in danger of entering the EU internal market from the UK via NI need to be checked."

No, my friend. That's not how it goes. EVERYTHING needs to be checked. EVERYTHING needs to go through customs and have the paperwork and documentation for the destination. What you so elegantly almost fudged into something completely different is that the goods that are in danger of entering the EU are THE ONES YOU PAY FOR. But to find out which goods those are, the CHECKS have to be done on EVERYTHING.

And that's the issue. The UK isn't complaining about good having to be paid the proper customs if they go into the EU. The entire issue is about where those checks take place. And no, we will not believe a UK exporter if he just makes a nice claim at the customs check. There will be a hard border somewhere. You can pick where it is, the Irish Sea or the Island of Ireland. The choice is YOURS, but there will be a customs check on EVERYTHING that goes through Northern Ireland. If you don't do it for us in the Irish Sea, we'll do it at the Irish border. The choice is yours. And that's ultimately why you won't be able to pin it on us.

- - - Updated - - -

That would have been the best solution for sure, pity our current PM changed his mind on having a confirmatory vote before leaving (I mean, it's also a pity he changed his mind on the UK staying in the single market after leaving, but nobody ever accused him of being honest :P).



I'm pretty sure the CTA does completely cover that (at least as it pertains to RoI/UK issues), also I could be wrong but I though Ireland wasn't even part of Schengen?



Problem is, the UK isn't going to put a hard border between RoI/NI, and RoI aren't going to do it, because in the face of Brexit both have fully reiterated their commitment to the CTA (and thus the paradox rolls on lol).



Yeah but nobody has to worry about that happening again, as the Brexiteers can't feed the cows what they don't have xD

Huh, you're right. Ireland is not part of Schengen. Since the UK never really had a border check for the EU, I kinda muddled it up a bit. It's funny, cos the UK only objected to Schengen formally but implemented everything as if they were in Schengen. Heck, I travelled to the UK with nothing but an ID card before. Customs guy didn't even bat an eyelid. Just waved me through the (empty) EU queue.

RoI is of course playing nice. But ultimately, when push comes to shove, they have to choose who they want to be with, the EU that provides them a pretty big boost to the economy right now, or... England. I know where I'd put my money.

Why do they have to choose? Simple, the EU has to treat the UK as a bad faith actor at this point. If they introduce bad stuff into Northern Ireland that then gets passed onto the RoI, it means our standards and regulations are being subverted. The EU would have to exclude RoI from the internal market simply to ensure the integrity of the single market. Ultimately, the EU has no choice in doing that, unless they want to give the UK the power to just unravel the whole point of the economic foundation the EU is built on.

There is no option but for RoI to make that decision at some point. Northern Ireland is the Gordic Knot. And the hard border is going to be the sword that cuts it. The question is where, Irish Sea, on the island of Ireland or in the Channel. Dribbles wants the EU to cut RoI off, but the EU will not actively pursue that avenue. Ireland will have to throw itself onto that sword, but the EU won't pull the sword away. It can't. And no IRA bombings can change that. It's OUR sovereignity that's at stake then.

[Elegiac]

Without sensible compromise by the EU, are a few UK sausages really a threat?

Bruh British people still aren't allowed to give blood in a whole lot of places because of your country's lax quality controls regarding beef, so the answer is a hard "yes". Lol.

[dribbles]

Someone must have forgotten that I love digging through legal texts just to show them up... alright, here we go:

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...=EN#d1e32-92-1

From the preamble (Dribs, this is a summary of intent meant to help guide interpretations of the legal text it preambles.. read this sentence again, aloud, to make sure you understood what I just said. I'll spell it out: THIS IS WHAT LAWYERS USE TO INTERPRET THE FOLLOWING LEGAL TEXT. With me so far? Good, carry on.)



Just pointing this out, because this is not implying, not interpretation... this is outright stating that Ireland (who signed this treaty) is well aware and willing to carry out the obligations the internal market expects from them, that is safekeeping the external border.



This is the bit where the UK signed, EXPLICITELY, that they are aware that the North-South relationship of the two Irelands rely on Northern Ireland following the EU legal and policy framework. Again, no interpretation, this is LITERALLY what the UK signed and acknowledged. Do not even for a second pretend they aren't aware of this. Ignorance and incompetence is not an option here.

As for which goods are going to have to be checked, that's put down in the WA, Article 5:



The UK signed that. Anything that could be moved into the EU while circumventing EU regulations is part of this. Yes, that means UK sausages. And everything else, too, that can be commercially sold at Irish supermarkets. The UK signed this. The UK was well aware of the meaning when they signed this.

And lastly... I have to admit, you're getting better. I almost missed this, but this is what you said:

"the one causing all the hassle says that goods that are in danger of entering the EU internal market from the UK via NI need to be checked."

No, my friend. That's not how it goes. EVERYTHING needs to be checked. EVERYTHING needs to go through customs and have the paperwork and documentation for the destination. What you so elegantly almost fudged into something completely different is that the goods that are in danger of entering the EU are THE ONES YOU PAY FOR. But to find out which goods those are, the CHECKS have to be done on EVERYTHING.

And that's the issue. The UK isn't complaining about good having to be paid the proper customs if they go into the EU. The entire issue is about where those checks take place. And no, we will not believe a UK exporter if he just makes a nice claim at the customs check. There will be a hard border somewhere. You can pick where it is, the Irish Sea or the Island of Ireland. The choice is YOURS, but there will be a customs check on EVERYTHING that goes through Northern Ireland. If you don't do it for us in the Irish Sea, we'll do it at the Irish border. The choice is yours. And that's ultimately why you won't be able to pin it on us.

- - - Updated - - -



Huh, you're right. Ireland is not part of Schengen. Since the UK never really had a border check for the EU, I kinda muddled it up a bit. It's funny, cos the UK only objected to Schengen formally but implemented everything as if they were in Schengen. Heck, I travelled to the UK with nothing but an ID card before. Customs guy didn't even bat an eyelid. Just waved me through the (empty) EU queue.

RoI is of course playing nice. But ultimately, when push comes to shove, they have to choose who they want to be with, the EU that provides them a pretty big boost to the economy right now, or... England. I know where I'd put my money.

Why do they have to choose? Simple, the EU has to treat the UK as a bad faith actor at this point. If they introduce bad stuff into Northern Ireland that then gets passed onto the RoI, it means our standards and regulations are being subverted. The EU would have to exclude RoI from the internal market simply to ensure the integrity of the single market. Ultimately, the EU has no choice in doing that, unless they want to give the UK the power to just unravel the whole point of the economic foundation the EU is built on.

There is no option but for RoI to make that decision at some point. Northern Ireland is the Gordic Knot. And the hard border is going to be the sword that cuts it. The question is where, Irish Sea, on the island of Ireland or in the Channel. Dribbles wants the EU to cut RoI off, but the EU will not actively pursue that avenue. Ireland will have to throw itself onto that sword, but the EU won't pull the sword away. It can't. And no IRA bombings can change that. It's OUR sovereignity that's at stake then.

All you are doing is parroting the EU position and it is all very well the EU lawyers drawing up an unworkable agreement then getting the UK to sign it, but that very same agreement allows quite legally for the UK to just tear it up. It is what will happen if this carries on with the UK quite rightly shouting to all who will listen it's the EU's fault. (and all my dreams of a proper brexit come true)

Any agreement can not only work on paper in theory but must in practice too.

All the UK are asking is the EU treat the NI/Eire border in the same manner they treat all their other borders. You know, those ones that are not just porous but open wide to thousands of undocumented immigrants and goods of an undesirable nature.

The EU are selectively implementing controls in one place that are not applied in any other locations.

Clearly, the EU is continuing to refuse to accept the UK has now left the bloc - meaning we are perfectly entitled to break away from their legislation.

https://www.express.co.uk/comment/ex...d-grace-period

Bring on that no deal Brexit, I can feel it in my bones, I can smell it that's how close it is!

Bruh British people still aren't allowed to give blood in a whole lot of places because of your country's lax quality controls regarding beef, so the answer is a hard "yes". Lol.

At least we learnt our lesson, the EU are making legal the same dodgy practices of the UK that exactly led to the BSE crisis. Time for the UK to ban EU meat imports if their direction of travel in standards are to the bottom of the barrel.

Last week the EU has lifted a ban on chicken feed being made from animal remains, a ban on this kind of feed for cattle was implemented to stop the spread of ‘Mad Cow Disease’

https://www.express.co.uk/comment/ex...d-grace-period

Madness.

[Elegiac]

At least we learnt our lesson, the EU are making legal the same dodgy practices of the UK that exactly led to the BSE crisis.

No they aren't. What the Express (lul) omits is that the "animal remains" being approved for use in feed is... insect protein.

Ignoring the fact that chickens do in fact eat bugs as part of their natural diet, there's no evidence that consuming insect protein transmits prion diseases as is the case with same-species consumption like what led to Foot and Mouth, something which REMAINS banned in the EU.

So, stop lying. It's doubly cringeworthy when you're trying to complain about EU chicken whilst actively encouraging the importing of American chlorinated lizard chicken post-Brexit.

[Slant]

All you are doing is parroting the EU position and it is all very well the EU lawyers drawing up an unworkable agreement then getting the UK to sign it, but that very same agreement allows quite legally for the UK to just tear it up. It is what will happen if this carries on with the UK quite rightly shouting to all who will listen it's the EU's fault. (and all my dreams of a proper brexit come true)

It's the UK position. They signed it. Nobody forced them. They thought it was an adequate deal. Stop whining.

[Twdft]

All the UK are asking is the EU treat the NI/Eire border in the same manner they treat all their other borders. You know, those ones that are not just porous but open wide to thousands of undocumented immigrants and goods of an undesirable nature.

The EU are selectively implementing controls in one place that are not applied in any other locations.

Dude what? I always assumed you were just a troll, but maybe you are simply that stupid.

[Slant]

I didn't even spot that. So clueless...

[Slant]

Interesting read, albeit a biased opinion piece, of course:

https://www.ft.com/content/af15b3fa-...4-bae72d0d58dd

To the victor, the spoils. Boris Johnson won the referendum on UK membership of the EU just over five years ago, went on to win the leadership of the Conservative party in July 2019, reached a deal with the EU in October and won a decisive victory under the UK’s first-past-the post system in the general election of December. He has re-made his country. But has he remade it for the better or for the worse? Has he increased opportunities for British people, or diminished them? Has he made the UK more influential and prosperous, or less so? My answer to all these questions is: “the latter”. But I admit it is still early days in this story.

[Forogil]

It's the UK position. They signed it. Nobody forced them. They thought it was an adequate deal. Stop whining.

Not merely adequate.

Here's what BoJo said then: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-51244126

The signing is a fantastic moment, which finally delivers the result of the 2016 referendum and brings to an end far too many years of argument and division