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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Sargeras was still corrupted by demons.
    Now that the retcon happened, were the Nathrezim Sargeras encountered even demons then? I'm really confused who are the true demons in the lore now, the original ones and responsible of converting other races and beings to demons that Sargeras fought against in the first place.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by niilokin View Post
    Now that the retcon happened, were the Nathrezim Sargeras encountered even demons then? I'm really confused who are the true demons in the lore now, the original ones and responsible of converting other races and beings to demons that Sargeras fought against in the first place.
    They were probably Nathrezim who infused themselves with the Fel (becoming demons in the process) in order to deceive Sargeras. But my guess is as good as any.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    Maybe because by changing "some things" they sour the story of what used to be there. What if Blizzard 5 years from now said "Acktually, Anduin's body was taken over by a dreadlord back in MoP. He actually died when Garrosh hit him into the gong. Everything he has been doing since then was following the Jailer's plan as a foil to Sylvanas." Ironically, that doesn't sound that crazy considering what they did with Sylvanas.
    Yeah, this doesn't actually sound any more or less bizarre than what we got with SL.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    Maybe because by changing "some things" they sour the story of what used to be there. What if Blizzard 5 years from now said "Acktually, Anduin's body was taken over by a dreadlord back in MoP. He actually died when Garrosh hit him into the gong. Everything he has been doing since then was following the Jailer's plan as a foil to Sylvanas." Ironically, that doesn't sound that crazy considering what they did with Sylvanas.
    What would be the problem with that? They didn't do any "crazy" plot twist. Most of the things they've changed made sense. If it were for people like you, this would still be a simple Orcs vs Humans fantasy average game. I'm sure that people like you complained when they created Kalimdor out of the blue. What would you do if you had a 30 years old game? They're just trying to expand and develop their lore; enjoy the journey and stop whining, because it's so pathetic.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Again, you'll hear no argument from me defending the Draenei retcon or TBC's lore but in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really change things. Sargeras was still corrupted by demons. While it somewhat cheapens/demystifies the eredar, they are still immensely powerful and intelligent demons. Sure, the root cause for Sargeras' madness changed from demon-induced depression to demon-induced anxiety but that part is really not that significant in my eyes. Also the Nathrezim were always at least partially the reason for Sargeras' fall.
    Similarly, the changes to the nathrezim have left them as powerful and intelligent demons, at least as much as the eredar are. The fact they didn't start as demons is really no different from the retcon with the eredar, but the nathrezim have maintained their mastery of deception, where the eredar were duped by Sargeras. The fact that they report to their creator doesn't change them that drastically. Before they destroyed planets by possessing (according to the WC3 manual) and corrupting the people within, and now they serve as infiltrators that bring about the destruction of the other forces by integrating them into their ranks. There's some shift there, but it remains that they are shadow actors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    I guess the Nathrezim, a race of master infiltrators and deceivers, just underwent the transformation into demons for the sake of it and accidentally drove Sargeras into madness, causing him to start a demonic crusade with the Nathrezim on board?


    I really wonder what this is referring to.
    I hadn't seen that quote before; where's it from? In terms of their purpose for transforming themselves into demons, that can still be intentional without having an entire twelve-step plan dealing with predicting the actions of other entities, such as Sargeras. Without further context, I still see it as an opportunistic maneuver: infiltrate the cosmic forces, gather intelligence, and figure out a means of influencing and disrupting them. They didn't necessarily need to know that Sargeras would go mad to infiltrate the realm of disorder, be found by Sargeras, be imprisoned, and then seize an opportunity to ingratiate themselves to him once Mardum is shattered. If it turns out the original plan was to place themselves where they did with the intention of being imprisoned and then being set free, I would agree that it is a ludicrous strategy without some further means of divining the future, which we haven't seen as of yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    I mean, the retcon is pretty clear-cut. Nathrezim aren't demons. Every expanded story (like their plans of infiltration etc.) resulting from that retcon is also consequentially a retcon since it couldn't have been part of the original continuity. Their motivation for corrupting Sargeras couldn't have been rooted in Denathrius' plans as they previously were primordial demons born of the Twisting Nether and not the Shadowlands.
    Again, I fail to see how this is more significant than making the eredar non-demons. While I admit that the scope of the retcon is large, the impact of it is overall not that significant. Understanding the nathrezim's instructions doesn't, in my opinion, undermine their accomplishments. Maybe it does for you, because the change alters something you found significant about them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    In regards to the necromancy point: previous lore pretty firmly established the Legion as the origin of necromancy. In WC2 it is even stated that Gul'dan was the one who first developed necromancy as its own school of magic (at least from his point of view) under the guidance of Kil'jaeden.

    Shadowlands introduced the concept that Maldraxxus (the place where souls randomly choose to walk around as skeletons) is the birthplace of necromantic magic. So if necromancy originates from Maldraxxus and the Legion/Gul'dan use necromancy, this effectively means that Kil'jaeden had to have somehow stolen this power from Maldraxxus first only to whisper it into Gul'dan's ears.
    But nothing has retconned the dreadlords in the Legion being Kil'jaeden's elite troops or having access to necromancy. Kil'jaeden could have learned it from them without stealing anything from the Shadowlands, and that information would then be passed down to Gul'dan when Kil'jaeden instructed him in the ways of warlock magics. Even if Kil'jaeden did not understand necromancy from the dreadlords, we do not have definitive evidence that necromancy could only have one origin. Druidism has three separate origins that I'm aware of thus far: Cenarius, Gonk, and the Drust. Paladins have derived their powers from worshipping the Light, siphoning naaru, praising the sun, or dedicating themselves to Rezan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Also the retcon about demons being linked to necromancy wasn't introduced in TBC (back then Brutallus' blood was enough to raise Madrigosa as an undead fel dragon).
    I didn't intend to imply it was. My point there was that eredar as innate demons started with warlock and necromantic powers in WC3. They no longer had them as an innate ability after the retcon, because eredar were not warlocks until after joining the Burning Legion. Thus, the dreadlords sharing necromancy with them addresses the question of how they gained those abilities. This is really no different than assuming other demons taught them warlock capabilities after joining the Legion; it just provides a more narrow scope on who within the Burning Legion would've been capable of sharing that information.

    Regardless, I appreciate your diving a bit further into your thoughts on this, and I definitely see why you feel the way you do. For me, the impact of Metzen's retcon was greater, partially because it paved the way for further retcons of this nature. Thus, the Shadowlands retcon doesn't particularly strike me deeply, as I'm numb from seeing it with the eredar. You're definitely entitled to feel Shadowlands was more significant, and I hope that the story can find some way of making up for that loss to you; I know TBC never did for me, leaving that as a very sour expansion in my memory.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Nork View Post
    Most of the things they've changed made sense.
    Why does scourge architecture look like maldraxxus architecture when it was based on the preexisting architecture of old god races, why are maldraxxus and the scourge so perfectly symmetrical they both even have spider people when said spider people were created by the old gods.

    If you have an answer to either of those questions that isn't nostalgia baiting when can talk about how the retconslore expansions make sense.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  6. #226
    The Lightbringer Nathreim's Avatar
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    The loyalty of Ner'zul and Arthas was likely to themselves. The Helm couldn't control Bolvar either.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathreim View Post
    The loyalty of Ner'zul and Arthas was likely to themselves. The Helm couldn't control Bolvar either.
    It's not even likely, it's stated outright by the Blue Man that all the Lich Kings did their own thing and didn't contribute to his goals and in doing so 'failed him'. Ner'zhul's description in the raid and one of the Torghast quests both say this in unambiguous terms. Danuser went out of his way to say that Arthas was his own man in the interviews. It's why I can't really get behind any arguments about the Scourge being undermined in this expansion because if anything the new bad guy is preemptively handicapped so as to preserve their agency. Individual characters were completely demolished like Kel'thuzad, mind, but the Scourge et al if anything got a better shake.

    Rightly so from an out of story level, since Arthas and the Scourge are much more relevant to the game in all regards than the Blue Man will ever be. Ner'zhul should also be treated with that kind of respect but the writers have completely dicked him since Wrath so that ship's long sailed. Also rightly so from a narrative level because the story completely collapses more so than it already would if Ner'zhul and the like were direct proxies of the Jailer yet did nothing to advance his goals, as is indeed the case.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-07-06 at 06:51 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  8. #228
    I am Murloc! Chonar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilian View Post
    So why are there sentient undead in Shadowlands. Being undead in Shadowlands implies dying there and being raised after in one form or another. Where does their conciousness come from if their death wholly destroyed anything they were?
    Obviously being undead in the Shadowlands means something very different than it would in the realm of the living? Honestly technically they should all be "Abberations", but since game mechanics need certain abilities to work against certain types of mobs, they are classified as undead. Game mechanics > Lore, like Blizzard has always done.

    None of these things are farfetched. This is all about how far you are willing to suspend your suspension of disbelief.
    Like with any story.
    But, as is custom with MMO-champion forums, there are a lot of unwilling people here.
    Looking marvelous in velvet.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    Why does scourge architecture look like maldraxxus architecture when it was based on the preexisting architecture of old god races, why are maldraxxus and the scourge so perfectly symmetrical they both even have spider people when said spider people were created by the old gods.

    If you have an answer to either of those questions that isn't nostalgia baiting when can talk about how the retconslore expansions make sense.
    The fact that Maldraxxus' architecture bothers you is the proof that you're taking this game too seriously. Complaining about an architecture incoherence in a game is ridiculous.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    Why does scourge architecture look like maldraxxus architecture when it was based on the preexisting architecture of old god races, why are maldraxxus and the scourge so perfectly symmetrical they both even have spider people when said spider people were created by the old gods.

    If you have an answer to either of those questions that isn't nostalgia baiting when can talk about how the retconslore expansions make sense.
    It's actually even worse because we know that the Nerubians got the architecture from the Tol'vir. So it's like Tol'vir + Nerubians + Cult of the Damned = Scourge.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Nork View Post
    The fact that Maldraxxus' architecture bothers you is the proof that you're taking this game too seriously. Complaining about an architecture incoherence in a game is ridiculous.
    Don't ask questions, just consume product and then get excited for next products.

    Methinks that coming to a lore forum on a fan website to simp for a multinational corporation and resorting to personal attacks when you (checks notes) have no argument. Suggests this might be a situation where the lady doth protest too much.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  12. #232
    Bloodsail Admiral Trollhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nork View Post
    The fact that Maldraxxus' architecture bothers you is the proof that you're taking this game too seriously. Complaining about an architecture incoherence in a game is ridiculous.
    Fuck world building amirite!?

    Can't wait for the Amazon LOTR TV to hear the horns of the Rohirrim again.. Wait thats not horns! That's engines! The Rohirrim have traded in their horses for Abrams M1A2's!

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollhammer View Post
    Fuck world building amirite!?

    Can't wait for the Amazon LOTR TV to hear the horns of the Rohirrim again.. Wait thats not horns! That's engines! The Rohirrim have traded in their horses for Abrams M1A2's!
    Bro why do you care about transportation methods in a fantasy setting? You're taking it too seriously.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    Don't ask questions, just consume product and then get excited for next products.

    Methinks that coming to a lore forum on a fan website to simp for a multinational corporation and resorting to personal attacks when you (checks notes) have no argument. Suggests this might be a situation where the lady doth protest too much.
    Arguments? Your arguments are pointless. You're just complaining because the architecture of a place is similar to another. Do I need to explain you that there were pyramids in America and Egypt even though their cultures never made contact? "OH, THEY'VE GOT SIMILAR ARCHITECTURE!!! BLIZZARD IS A SHITTY COMPANY!!" Grow up.

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Nork View Post
    Arguments? Your arguments are pointless.
    1. Trying to make out a lore argument on the lore forum of a fansite for a fantasy mmo is pedantic and pointless is missing the forest for the trees my simping friend.
    2. Trying to pass off 'similar' architecture as a totally organic coincidence is hurting blizzard's argument because they said the maldraxxus architecture was the same as the scourge one because the scourge copied maldraxxus as I pointed out before forgetting scourge architecture is based on the nerubian/tol'vir styles who were created by the old gods and titans respectively.
    3. Interesting you seem to be focusing on the architecture argument (presumably to continue this narrative you're spinning about pointlessness) while repeatedly ignoring the issue that maldraxxus has spider people because blizzard wants the scourge to be a copy of maldraxxus in-universe while forgetting the scourge didn't create the nerubians the old gods did.

    So again try having an argument next time you need to step in to defend the maiden blizzard's honor.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    1. Trying to make out a lore argument on the lore forum of a fansite for a fantasy mmo is pedantic and pointless is missing the forest for the trees my simping friend.
    2. Trying to pass off 'similar' architecture as a totally organic coincidence is hurting blizzard's argument because they said the maldraxxus architecture was the same as the scourge one because the scourge copied maldraxxus as I pointed out before forgetting scourge architecture is based on the nerubian/tol'vir styles who were created by the old gods and titans respectively.
    3. Interesting you seem to be focusing on the architecture argument (presumably to continue this narrative you're spinning about pointlessness) while repeatedly ignoring the issue that maldraxxus has spider people because blizzard wants the scourge to be a copy of maldraxxus in-universe while forgetting the scourge didn't create the nerubians the old gods did.

    So again try having an argument next time you need to step in to defend the maiden blizzard's honor.
    You fail again with your arguments. Blizzard said that Maldraxxus is the place where the scourge gets its power from; they've never said anything related to Maldraxxus architecture nor why there are spider people in Maldraxxus.

    It's so easy to invalidate your arguments. As I said before, you'd better grow up and stop taking a game too seriously; you'll be happier.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Nork View Post
    You fail again with your arguments. Blizzard said that Maldraxxus is the place where the scourge gets its power from; they've never said anything related to Maldraxxus architecture nor why there are spider people in Maldraxxus.

    It's so easy to invalidate your arguments. As I said before, you'd better grow up and stop taking a game too seriously; you'll be happier.
    11. In a previous interview, it is said that Maldraxxus is somewhat reminiscent of the Scourge. Is this just visual inspiration or is it part of the story? In addition, we know that Ner'zhul was indeed inspired by the Nerubians for the architecture of his faction.

    Remember that the influence of death was present in Azeroth long before Ner'zhul became the Lich King. We may one day discover what the Nerubians were doing in their vast kingdom and what terrible wonders may have inspired them.

    Oh look here's a quote from your spiritual liege Narthanos himself doing damage control after the fact. That looks pretty far away from never said anything about architecture.

    I think it is clear when you look at Maldraxxus there are a ton of echoes of that classic image of undead and Scourge represented in Warcraft III and Wrath of the Lich King expansion. There is no question that there are visual and thematic ties there.
    Well lookie here, this quote is just blizzard admitting maldraxxus is nostalgia bait (and also has the added bonus of obliterating your claim that any similarities are organic coincidence), I wonder how all the nerubian influences accidentally got swept up in that decision.

    Again I'm going to ask you to adduce an argument or take your blasted booty and go.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    11. In a previous interview, it is said that Maldraxxus is somewhat reminiscent of the Scourge. Is this just visual inspiration or is it part of the story? In addition, we know that Ner'zhul was indeed inspired by the Nerubians for the architecture of his faction.

    Remember that the influence of death was present in Azeroth long before Ner'zhul became the Lich King. We may one day discover what the Nerubians were doing in their vast kingdom and what terrible wonders may have inspired them.

    Oh look here's a quote from your spiritual liege Narthanos himself doing damage control after the fact. That looks pretty far away from never said anything about architecture.

    I think it is clear when you look at Maldraxxus there are a ton of echoes of that classic image of undead and Scourge represented in Warcraft III and Wrath of the Lich King expansion. There is no question that there are visual and thematic ties there.
    Well lookie here, this quote is just blizzard admitting maldraxxus is nostalgia bait (and also has the added bonus of obliterating your claim that any similarities are organic coincidence), I wonder how all the nerubian influences accidentally got swept up in that decision.

    Again I'm going to ask you to adduce an argument or take your blasted booty and go.
    All your examples don't confirm your intial statements ("scourge copied Maldraxxus", "Maldraxxus has got spider people because they wanna link them with Nerubians").

    Your arguments are so poor. They have said Maldraxxus and the Scourge are related in some way, but nothing you've said was true, it was just your speculation infested with whining.

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