Hiring People from the Elitist Jerks site was a mistake.

[Aphrel]

People who think they can quantify fun with metrics and charts usually fall flat on their faces doing so.

I don't think even fun enters the equation anymore. Its all about "how long can we get away with having players chasing this carrot until we need to spice things up.

[Azerate]

They should had hired from casual communities like pet/mount collectors and stuff so they keep the game more user friendly to new players and absolute newbies so it grows organically and not by keeping hard core players that were already getting old.

I liked the Elitist Jerks website because I wanted to be optimal at raiding but those people banned you for the slightest excuse so it was a huge mistake respecting that for a game that first became successful for being "user friendly Everquest".

As a collector I find the completionist content plentiful and fairly enjoyable, what are you talking about?

[loras]

They should had hired from casual communities like pet/mount collectors and stuff so they keep the game more user friendly to new players and absolute newbies so it grows organically and not by keeping hard core players that were already getting old.

I liked the Elitist Jerks website because I wanted to be optimal at raiding but those people banned you for the slightest excuse so it was a huge mistake respecting that for a game that first became successful for being "user friendly Everquest".

Honestly you need input from all sorts of players, but yeah that focussing on people calling themselves "elitist jerks" is a bad idea should not surprise anyone.
It's like with pro sports: sure the guys doing it do what they do better than all others, but do not mistake that for them genuinely consciously having a clue as to what they are doing. ^^'

Exceptions notwithstanding of course, but it's often the more basic skills that are well developed with them, as such they're not the sort you'd want to have making decisions later on despite their "experience", which frankly is often irrelevant; the best vantage points are rarely out in the field, to play gives no guarantee that you can understand matters in a broader context.

You see this in various industries as well of course, but as the intelligence and education (separate and different things mind you) required to perform a task increases you can expect people to progress to managerial / "developmental" positions more naturally.

Gaming however has a lot more in common with sports than with industry in that sense; "pro" experience of a dedicated gamer is not enough if the broader perspective is lacking.

[epLe]

I'm a filthy casual. I don't raid and only run a dungeon occasionally. I think there's plenty for me to do, if I want to do it.

Casuals are the new hardcore.

They invest way more time, into a much wider aspect of the game, hence contributing more to keeping the world alive.

Raidloggers were always the bane of mmorpgs.

/nosarcasm

[Kumorii]

Insane amount... realy?

Even people here lose it. There is not much content in general... treasure hunting is non excisting and new zones and stuff is for everyone.. the major develop time goes into the raids and dung. But for a while now its just not cutting it an we all know it.

Existing and new zones are for everyone, doesn't change that it's casual content. Which is my point. Even raids and dungeons which takes the most development have casual modes for it. The only hardcore content is the higher difficulties. Rest is casual.

[GreenJesus]

Casuals are the new hardcore.

They invest way more time, into a much wider aspect of the game, hence contributing more to keeping the world alive.

Raidloggers were always the bane of mmorpgs.

/nosarcasm

It is pretty funny. Mythic raiders generally seem to play 10-12 hours a week raidlogging and doing a single m+ a week. Meanwhile "casuals" play like 20-40 hours a week farming transmogs, mounts, and doing world quests etc.

[rrayy]

Really, you find everything you do in the game fun? Nothing ever feels like a chore to you?

Yes, I do find everything fun. Funny how people have different opinions than you.

[Varitok]

It's kind of ironic in a way as WoW initially hired a bunch of hardcore EQ players. However, those players had the fore site to see that making the game a niche hardcore game was not the way to go. They ended up making the best casual mmo anyone had ever seen at the time.

It could have worked here, but they just got the wrong guy. Listening to Ion talk tells you all you need to know about his direction for this game. His overly convoluted vernacular translates directly into how the last few expansions have gone. People who think they can quantify fun with metrics and charts usually fall flat on their faces doing so.

I wasn't planning on posting in this thread but your post is 100% correct.

[Alanar]

Existing and new zones are for everyone, doesn't change that it's casual content. Which is my point. Even raids and dungeons which takes the most development have casual modes for it. The only hardcore content is the higher difficulties. Rest is casual.

Hardcore is a lost term these days anyway.., but even * hardcore * people use casual aspects of the game, so I don't consider everything casual ground like you say, besides one difficulty. More a matter of time spend. It's the moment when people started making groups for mythic raids in the lfg tool that i kinda went.. what ever.

Long story short, casuals are the people who have the most valuable feedback imo covers way more ground and points in general of the game, ofc it needs some filtering, but still.

- - - Updated - - -

It is pretty funny. Mythic raiders generally seem to play 10-12 hours a week raidlogging and doing a single m+ a week. Meanwhile "casuals" play like 20-40 hours a week farming transmogs, mounts, and doing world quests etc.

That is very true.

[Gorsameth]

It is pretty funny. Mythic raiders generally seem to play 10-12 hours a week raidlogging and doing a single m+ a week. Meanwhile "casuals" play like 20-40 hours a week farming transmogs, mounts, and doing world quests etc.

It does appear that way outside of the very top who keep up with way to many characters.

[Revamp Man]

I haven’t really seen the “elitist jerks” crew cause many complaints from people who interact with them

I remember celestalon being a tool and a half

[infinitemeridian]

You can make the argument that there is a lot of casual content in the game, but you can't convince me that it's good, especially the SL stuff.

[Kumorii]

Hardcore is a lost term these days anyway.., but even * hardcore * people use casual aspects of the game, so I don't consider everything casual ground like you say, besides one difficulty. More a matter of time spend. It's the moment when people started making groups for mythic raids in the lfg tool that i kinda went.. what ever.

Long story short, casuals are the people who have the most valuable feedback imo covers way more ground and points in general of the game, ofc it needs some filtering, but still.

"hardcores" using casual aspects of a game doesn't change the fact its casual content.

[klogaroth]

You might as well have said that hiring people that did a chemsity class in school was a mistake and claim that it would lead to the game having too much of a focus on chemical bonds.

People are generally not one dimensional. They are capable of learning across a wide range of domains. They also may have hobbies in a completely different area to their professional expertise. Some people have a hobby that is right there in their area of professional expertise, but very slightly leaning towards a particular aspect of that hobby that you don't personally favour. And you think that is a problem?

Are you insane?

[Yriel]

I find it amusing that you think a perfect game is one where fun does not exist. It really shows how difficult of a battle Blizzard has with making some people happy.

I don't think it's difficult at all.
Blizzard is very good in making the game development efficient.
They create content that takes a minimum of development effort to create maximum replayability. Something along the lines of "20% less dev hours for a content patch that keeps a avarage player occupied for 30 hours a week for 5 months." Their Bosses probably love it, it's ideal content on a spreadsheet. It's just not fun to play.
It's like a food compay designing a protein bar with all required nutrients that is super cheap to make but tastes like cardboard. Great from a company standpoint, not so great for the consumer.

I bet the everquest devs really had their shoulders patted when they came up with raids. "What if, instead making a new dungeon every month we just make a new dungeon every 9 months but just turn up the number so that it takes people hundreds of hours to complete it?" It's the pinnacle of efficiency.

[Raisei]

WoW has been about dungeons and raids since Vanilla. People come to this game because no other offers this content. For that purpose Ion and the other Devs are doing a fine job, not perfect, but fine. If for some reason you came here and expected to get a full game experience while staying away from the central content of the game then you made a mistake. It is not the Dev's fault that you expect the world to revolve around your whims. Go play something else that caters to your demands and stop trying to ruin WoW for the people who like it here.

For example, have you heard about that crazy little game called Final Fantasy? Yes? Me too. In every bloody damn thread that gets opened in this WoW forum these days. Since it is apparently doing everything better then WoW maybe all the haters and complainers could go there and leave the people who enjoy WoW alone. That would be really swell.

I hear you. But the thing is, even I get tired of always bringing up FFXIV. There is no specific endgame there. It is what you want to do. Sure, you have raids but you also have ocean fishing (group content for fishers with exclusive pets, achievement and mount). One of the best gears you can get is from crafting. There are indeed regular triple triad tournaments (like if Hearthstone would be playable ingame). There are entire subreddits dedicated to how to crossbreed plant seeds in the garden if you are lucky to get a housing plot. Hell you can fuck around just by completing the sightseeing log and turning it into paintings for your wall. Or decipher treasure maps you get during gathering hoping to open portals to the treasure vaults. Or you can just breed racing chocobos for currency at the Gold Saucer (Permanent Darkmoon Faire).
And my favorite part is: Since the main story is told in the dungeons, you aren't really pressured into grinding raid gear if you want to continue.

And this is all I want to say regarding the matter. I sound like a goddamn telemarketer. Ugh.

That is great to hear. Then we can keep WoW as it is and everyone that doesn't want to take part in what WoW is all about, which is dungeons and raids since Vanilla, can go play with fish and plants in FF.
My guild came to WoW from SWTOR specifically because SWTOR abandoned its raiding community in favour of becoming a solo-player experience with sub and cash shop. Years of being faithful to the game and they dropped us because it wasn't cost effective to produce real content over something for casuals. That's where these endless complaints from the so-called casual playerbase leads.

So there are at least 2 AAA titles you can go to if you are not liking WoW's focus on dungeons and raids. Why do we need WoW to change and cater to the casuals as well? Are two huge games not enough? Are the casuals only happy if every last game on the market has conformed to their demands? It certainly seems this way.

If Final Fantasy is so friggin great for casuals then they should go, no one cares. But stop coming back here saying everything in WoW needs to change because it is not like Final Fantasy. It's getting extremely annoying.

[Akka]

They should had hired from casual communities like pet/mount collectors and stuff so they keep the game more user friendly to new players and absolute newbies so it grows organically and not by keeping hard core players that were already getting old.

That's the perfect recipe to make a terrible, boring, shallow game.
Ion team is bad because they are too much about "spreadsheet and analysis", not because they are "hardcore". Fact is, the original WoW designers WERE hardcore players.

[Lady Atia]

WoW has been about dungeons and raids since Vanilla. People come to this game because no other offers this content. For that purpose Ion and the other Devs are doing a fine job, not perfect, but fine. If for some reason you came here and expected to get a full game experience while staying away from the central content of the game then you made a mistake. It is not the Dev's fault that you expect the world to revolve around your whims. Go play something else that caters to your demands and stop trying to ruin WoW for the people who like it here.

For example, have you heard about that crazy little game called Final Fantasy? Yes? Me too. In every bloody damn thread that gets opened in this WoW forum these days. Since it is apparently doing everything better then WoW maybe all the haters and complainers could go there and leave the people who enjoy WoW alone. That would be really swell.



That is great to hear. Then we can keep WoW as it is and everyone that doesn't want to take part in what WoW is all about, which is dungeons and raids since Vanilla, can go play with fish and plants in FF.
My guild came to WoW from SWTOR specifically because SWTOR abandoned its raiding community in favour of becoming a solo-player experience with sub and cash shop. Years of being faithful to the game and they dropped us because it wasn't cost effective to produce real content over something for casuals. That's where these endless complaints from the so-called casual playerbase leads.

So there are at least 2 AAA titles you can go to if you are not liking WoW's focus on dungeons and raids. Why do we need WoW to change and cater to the casuals as well? Are two huge games not enough? Are the casuals only happy if every last game on the market has conformed to their demands? It certainly seems this way.

If Final Fantasy is so friggin great for casuals then they should go, no one cares. But stop coming back here saying everything in WoW needs to change because it is not like Final Fantasy. It's getting extremely annoying.

But many people play WoW for it's setting, the lore, the achievments, the collections. No clue why you are telling people to play FFXIV instead if that game has nothing of that? Never unstood people who play games only for "gameplay" lol. Also I played SWTOR casually since it's release for some time - it never really had any "good" endgame compared to WoW. PvP was great at the start but they botched it quite early.

And honestly, it wouldn't hurt WoW to get some ideas from both SWTOR and FFXIV.

[Sanguinerd]

WoW is doing a fine job at scaring away the majority player base to FF because that game IS catering to them where as WoW is not anymore by putting everything behind ridiculous walls and acting like its supposed to be fun. It's not. Theres way too much math involved in WoW right now.

Take a simple thing like conduits and really look at how fucking stupid that system is for both casuals and hardcore. Why are you limited in swapping? Why are there even so ranks? Why are they so different between each covenant? Why make them a "reward" when they get forced on you to begin with? Why did they bother making conduits with useless effects?

Then someone had to take the time to go through all those numbers.. for each class, spec and covenant >_<

Too. much. math.

[khazmodan]

Ion and crew are awesome at systems and spreadsheets and metrics and numbers.

They are horrible at fun.

Ion has engineered the perfect game. Now if they could only engineer some fun...

Perfectly said, Ion is a lawyer and an analytics guy but not an artist or an innovator and coming out of "elitist jerks" means he is a bottom line sort of guy. Bottom line people tend to be one dimensional people that are fine in the finance department but creating a great game experience takes people more excited by fun features and depth of creativity. The talent has left the building and anybody expecting anything more than generic time sink grinds and excessive monetization should wake up and smell the Blizzard corpse.