Israel and Palestine Conflict Heats Up

[Orange Joe]

First you know all too well there were no human casualties in the destruction of the media building as even the building owner has confirmed there was nobody inside and he has done so before a camera, so don't mention clearly unrelated stuff just do add weight to your arguments, it has the opposite effect. And yes we are currently discussing civilian casualties.
As for your other example, you don't know whether there is a proof (and I don't know that either), however there is a difference between a court hearing where both sides present their proofs and arguments etc etc, and an actual war where you get an intel and you act on that intel rather than present a proof to a random guy at his/her computer on the other side of the world and waiting for their approval. If you said Israel doesn't put enough effort to prevent civilian deaths, I'd still disagree but that'd be a reasonable argument worth discussing. Saying they kill civilians on purpose? It's bs and you know it's bs



So you are basically saying Israel does it just for the lols, just to be evil, at the cost of getting a major negative PR with various consequences (including for example being unable to complete the military campaign against Hamas and thus making sure this will happen again in a few years once Hamas rearms), with no tangible benefits for itself? That sounds like a good argument...

If no one was in the building why did they target it?

[shimerra]

At least, you are now presenting the facts more honestly than you did and than you usually do .

I'm not sure why I have to explain this but if your modifications ultimately changed nothing than it was stupidly pointless to make them and your original criticism against him rings hollow.

All you did is ask him to spell something out that didn't need to be unless you're an idiot. The fact that you think not including your pointless addition was dishonest says more about you than him. The analogy was fine, unless you're an idiot, and you're just being pointlessly pedantic.

[PC2]

If no one was in the building why did they target it?

They targeted it because it was terrorist infrastructure that was being used by Hamas.

[JohnBrown1917]

They targeted it because it was terrorist infrastructure that was being used by Hamas.

With zero evidence.

[Orange Joe]

They targeted it because it was terrorist infrastructure that was being used by Hamas.

Based on what proof.

[tehdang]

Hamas sympathizers: They destroyed this building without any evidence.
[Israel shares with US state dept, military, intelligence the evidence, by request] [US acknowledges]
Hamas sympathizers: We also need the evidence. (psst the terrorists should know who how sites of terrorist planning were identified. In fair play.)
Israel: How dumb do you take us for?
Hamas sympathizers: They may kill as many of your civilians as they can, so long as any retaliation at launch sites and planners ends in disproportionate civilian casualties.
Israel: ???
Hamas sympathizers: You're guilty of war crimes and genocide.
Israel: Really now?
Hamas sympathizers: We'll revisit this topic after Hamas replenishes the 4,000+ rockets expended in attacks against Israel.

[Omega10]

At least, you are now presenting the facts more honestly than you did and than you usually do .

Your clarification smears you a lot more than it smeared him. As you requested, he added some irrelevant details. The fact that you consider them relevant is on you, not him.

[PC2]

With zero evidence.

Yeah of course, everything classified is based on zero evidence/proof for everyone who doesn't work for an intelligence agency. That's not unique to Israel though because that's how it works in general for all countries.

Also you should almost never believe anything based on "evidence", the actual criteria is "explanations" and not evidence. If you think the best interpretation of these events is that Israel is intentionally targeting civilians and non-terrorist infrastructure then of course you are free to your interpretation. The truth always comes out in the end so only time will tell.

[Orange Joe]

Hamas sympathizers: They destroyed this building without any evidence.
[Israel shares with US state dept, military, intelligence the evidence, by request] [US acknowledges]
Hamas sympathizers: We also need the evidence. (psst the terrorists should know who how sites of terrorist planning were identified. In fair play.)
Israel: How dumb do you take us for?
Hamas sympathizers: They may kill as many of your civilians as they can, so long as any retaliation at launch sites and planners ends in disproportionate civilian casualties.
Israel: ???
Hamas sympathizers: You're guilty of war crimes and genocide.
Israel: Really now?
Hamas sympathizers: We'll revisit this topic after Hamas replenishes the 4,000+ rockets expended in attacks against Israel.

Are all Palestinians Hamas? Cause if not your statement makes no sense. I would be ok with them targeting Hamas, but they seem to be targeting Palestinians to hit Hamas.

[Draco-Onis]

Hamas sympathizers: They destroyed this building without any evidence.
[Israel shares with US state dept, military, intelligence the evidence, by request] [US acknowledges]
Hamas sympathizers: We also need the evidence. (psst the terrorists should know who how sites of terrorist planning were identified. In fair play.)
Israel: How dumb do you take us for?
Hamas sympathizers: They may kill as many of your civilians as they can, so long as any retaliation at launch sites and planners ends in disproportionate civilian casualties.
Israel: ???
Hamas sympathizers: You're guilty of war crimes and genocide.
Israel: Really now?
Hamas sympathizers: We'll revisit this topic after Hamas replenishes the 4,000+ rockets expended in attacks against Israel.

The US said they received no such intelligence and they had no clue what Israel was talking about. Israel's actions are not supported by a majority of Jews and even people in Israel including former IDF members have spoken out against them guess they are all "Hamas sympathizers". Maybe it is the simplest explanation that people not named you don't like indiscriminate bombings and slaughter of innocent people.

[downnola]

Nice to include another instance where terrorists, in this case Hezbollah, invaded into Israel, killing and capturing Israeli soldiers. The thousands of rockets Hezbollah fired on Israel predated the Iron Dome defensive system. Rockets fell on Israel prior to that conflict too, killing civilians while capturing and killing soldiers. "bUt iSRael's rESponSE" once again ignoring the one-sided violence immediately preceding the action. Israel learned valuable lessons in that war and their later development in intelligence gathering and precision munitions (defensive and offensive) greatly aided their current actions.

Bro, you're here accusing others of covering for actual war crimes, and people defending Israel in this thread are regularly accused of supporting genocide and an ethnostate. You can stand for a little deserved backlash. Namely, that your softball criticism of Hamas together with lies and pearl-clutching with Israel amounts to a pro-Hamas position. Every time Israel defends itself, your only response is detailing all the reasons they deserve to stand idle in the face of rocket fire because Hamas hides in civilian architecture. Come off it.

Link Fox News to somebody that relies on their reporting, or agrees that arguing by analogy is good stuff.

It's a wonder they choose to wage war in such a targeted manner, when all they get in response is "feign concern." Israel protected its population with targeted munitions, effectively saving thousands of Palestinian lives with their restraint. And all you can muster is "feign concern." They're letting the terrorists along with civilians go free after the knock bombs. Terrorists waging war against their nation. Any wonder why people conclude the disparate treatment amounts to a pro-Hamas and anti-Israel position? Granted, I'm glad that you don't post any "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free," which is the more overt form of Hamas support.

You are covering for actual war crimes and you did it in your first paragraph in this post. Also, people like Gaidax and Easo have clearly shown support for an ethnostate in Israel in this very thread. What do you think "protecting the Jewish identity" and placing Palestinian right to return into the "no fucking way" bucket actually means, fella? You have to put words in my mouth, baselessly call me a liar, and perform all sorts of mental gymnastics to label me as a supporter of Hamas or antisemitic. One person has even gone on to claim that I hate Israel. Says fucking who? I've even gone out of my way that I support Israel's right to exist and Jewish people's right to self-determination. What I don't support is their treatment of Palestinians, especially in occupied East Jerusalem, the West Bank, and even within Israel's borders. That position is inconvenient for you because it makes nonsense of all of these ad hominems that you and others lazily rely on.

I haven't made a single argument that Hamas shouldn't be held accountable for their crimes against Israeli and Palestinian civilians. I haven't argued that they're justified in their attacks because they're not. I can easily say that and so can Endus and the majority of people in this thread who are critical of these bombings. You, on the other hand, take the position that these bombings are justified and Israel should not be held accountable, all without backing up any of these claims with a single source. I link human rights group investigations and you accuse me of lying and pearl clutching. I point out that your defense of Israel is identical to other forms of war-crime and genocide denial and you try to jump through hoops like Glenn Beck on a chalkboard to try to argue that my position is somehow pro-Hamas. From what I can tell, you're just not a serious person and are really here just to shit post.

Like this poster, too:

Cannot read yet again. Urgh...

I can read just fine, I'm just not taking your ridiculous bait. Point out where I've claimed Israel has to explain itself to me or anyone on this forum. You're just evading the point because you don't have an argument.

[Elegiac]

Hamas sympathizers: They destroyed this building without any evidence.
[Israel shares with US state dept, military, intelligence the evidence, by request] [US acknowledges]

The term for this is "hearsay".

ITT:

[tehdang]

Are all Palestinians Hamas? Cause if not your statement makes no sense. I would be ok with them targeting Hamas, but they seem to be targeting Palestinians to hit Hamas.

The US asked for evidence that the building that was destroyed had a Hamas office. The Netanyahu administration provided it to the US. Reporters asked the US whether or not it was actually given and sufficient proof, and the US responded in the affirmative.

For the rest of the post, respond with questions about the rest of the post.

- - - Updated - - -

You are covering for actual war crimes and you did it in your first paragraph in this post.

Then don't whine when people use incisive rhetoric in response. Seriously.

Also, people like Gaidax and Easo have clearly shown support for an ethnostate in Israel in this very thread. What do you think "protecting the Jewish identity" and placing Palestinian right to return into the "no fucking way" bucket actually means, fella?

And then the mods banned the discussion, so maybe save that argument for a venue that allows both sides.

You have to put words in my mouth, baselessly call me a liar, and perform all sorts of mental gymnastics to label me as a supporter of Hamas or antisemitic. One person has even gone on to claim that I hate Israel. Says fucking who? I've even gone out of my way that I support Israel's right to exist and Jewish people's right to self-determination. What I don't support is their treatment of Palestinians, especially in occupied East Jerusalem, the West Bank, and even within Israel's borders. That position is inconvenient for you because it makes nonsense of all of these ad hominems that you and others lazily rely on.

You keep making up shit about Israel's culpability in war crimes etc. You masquerade skepticism like your raised eyebrow is equal to other debater's arguments. Do better. Please.

I don't mean this to express ingratitude to admitting that Israel has a right to exist and the Jews have a right to self determination. This is a major admission from the usual ilk of Israel-critics and it's refreshing to not have to argue from that point.

And if you think whatever I've said constitutes an ad hominem, then kindly remember that you just finished accusing me of "covering for actual war crimes." Because what I've said can only be considered as ad hominem under the terms that would reveal yourself as equally guilty.

I haven't made a single argument that Hamas shouldn't be held accountable for their crimes against Israeli and Palestinian civilians. I haven't argued that they're justified in their attacks because they're not. I can easily say that and so can Endus and the majority of people in this thread who are critical of these bombings. You, on the other hand, take the position that these bombings are justified and Israel should not be held accountable, all without backing up any of these claims with a single source. I link human rights group investigations and you accuse me of lying and pearl clutching. I point out that your defense of Israel is identical to other forms of war-crime and genocide denial and you try to jump through hoops like Glenn Beck on a chalkboard to try to argue that my position is somehow pro-Hamas. From what I can tell, you're just not a serious person and are really here just to shit post.

When it comes to what should actually be done to hold Hamas accountable you're cleverly silent. Forgive us for wondering if dead Israelis should just be mourned as victims without any possible action taken in response. For all I know, you'd be equally capable of defending or advocating inaction had the casualties been doubled or tripled on the Israeli side.

Like this poster, too:

Take it up with other posters. I don't speak for them. All your angst about other posters should be addressed to them. Or do you want to answer for other posters that address me as defending genocide?

Just give me a heads up if you seek to bear the mantle for all the other ill comments addressed to me, up to and including that I don't regard Palestinians as human.

- - - Updated - - -

The US said they received no such intelligence and they had no clue what Israel was talking about.

The Israelis then provided it to the relevant departments. The Israelis maintain, and nobody has disagreed, that the necessary intelligence was first relayed to the military and intelligence wings of the US.

[Polyxo]

So, is the information about these buildings coming from the same Mossad that bombed US businesses in Egypt and then blamed it on Islamists? Cause that's kind of an issue with credibility.

[Specialka]

I'm not sure why I have to explain this but if your modifications ultimately changed nothing than it was stupidly pointless to make them and your original criticism against him rings hollow.

All you did is ask him to spell something out that didn't need to be unless you're an idiot. The fact that you think not including your pointless addition was dishonest says more about you than him. The analogy was fine, unless you're an idiot, and you're just being pointlessly pedantic.

So all you can do is ad hominem ? That is saying a lot about you.

When you get in front of a judge, you have to say all the details unless you want to lose your case. That what I helped him.

- - - Updated - - -

Your clarification smears you a lot more than it smeared him. As you requested, he added some irrelevant details. The fact that you consider them relevant is on you, not him.

So only ad hominem ? That is more saying about you rather than me.

[Draco-Onis]

The US asked for evidence that the building that was destroyed had a Hamas office. The Netanyahu administration provided it to the US. Reporters asked the US whether or not it was actually given and sufficient proof, and the US responded in the affirmative.

False

https://apnews.com/article/middle-ea...49e1cce7dbc49e

The US has yet to make a statement as of today affirming they received this "proof" only the usual "Israel has the right to defend itself". Please provide evidence that the US has affirmed it because so far only Israel has made those claims.

The Israelis then provided it to the relevant departments. The Israelis maintain, and nobody has disagreed, that the necessary intelligence was first relayed to the military and intelligence wings of the US.

Again link the proof, all there is so far are right wing media outlets claiming that the US has affirmed the proof but there has been no official statement by anyone in the US to that affect.

[Orange Joe]

The US asked for evidence that the building that was destroyed had a Hamas office. The Netanyahu administration provided it to the US. Reporters asked the US whether or not it was actually given and sufficient proof, and the US responded in the affirmative.

Hi, American citizen here. My country has lied about this kind of shit before. (iraq WMD's) I don't trust them either.

[Fandis]

Hi, American citizen here. My country has lied about this kind of shit before. (iraq WMD's) I don't trust them either.

In that case you can go ahead and trust Hamas instead. You have no choice but to trust someone (or trust nobody I guess). No one is going to present classified information to YOU, unless you work for one of the relevant US departments of course.

[uuuhname]

In that case you can go ahead and trust Hamas instead. You have no choice but to trust someone (or trust nobody I guess). No one is going to present classified information to YOU, unless you work for one of the relevant US departments of course.

if the government can't be bothered to disclose certain information to the press then that is their fault for not being fully honest with the public. I mean really what's so classified about confirming if Hamas was in a press building or not?

because I have yet to see a single article, from any of you, that backs the claim that Hamas was in that building.

[Endus]

So all you can do is ad hominem ? That is saying a lot about you.

When you get in front of a judge, you have to say all the details unless you want to lose your case. That what I helped him.

You didn't "help" anything. Your "corrections" did not improve upon the analogy in any practical way whatsoever. Nor did they affect the conclusion I drew from it.

It's like if I said "an apple is like an orange, they're both fruit and taste sweet", and you jumped in with "a RED apple!" Yeah? How does that affect anything? It's a meaningless interruption that doesn't contribute to the point. You're just wasting people's time.