Systems in WoW

[tacoloco]

Min maxing is Sololy a player made issue none of the systems blizzard has added to the game are above a grade school level of complication but instead of players thinking for them selfs or picking what’s fun they want what’s optimal which in lies the need to use 3rd party sites.

The systems aren't complicated on their own. But there are too many of them.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The systems aren't complicated on their own. But there are too many of them.

Even with all of them combined they aren’t complicated your average Pokémon game post silver has more systems with more depth then wow right now.

[Relapses]

I could give a fuck about the number of systems in WoW. As long as the systems make sense, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. But the current game has systems that barely make sense, have absolutely no in-game resource to explain what their purpose is, and seemingly serve only to inconvenience a certain subsection of the playerbase (Conduit Energy says hi). It really makes you wonder why they removed things like Reforging and DoT snapshotting in an effort to streamline accessibility only to then add system after system to the game which effectively have all of the same downsides of these removed systems with none of the benefits. I hope Blizzard takes a hard look at their design philosophy moving into 10.0 and dials back some of the superfluous anti-degeneracy roadblocks they've added to the game in recent years.

[Zyrinx]

Yeah 9.1 was it for me, after 16 years. Another island to run around being constantly swarmed with mobs so you can't even take a breath, trying to fill an arbitrary bar. To get flying. Which you can't use in this new zone with it's billion mobs.

Idk, the systems suck (Schitzode I think upthread mentioned inventory. 10 different types of research nuggets for no reason whatsoever, along with 8 anima nuggets also for no reason), but the complete lack of imagination of this content, maybe outside the raid, it's just over.

Edit: I wish I'd had more available characters to type in my Why did you Unsub message, but I tried to make my points.

[Echo of Soul]

100% agree.

Today's Blizzard spends so much time in balancing and changing the systems, but rarely tweaking the basics anymore.

Imagine if they spent all that time and energy on developing content instead.
That's why the competitors are so successful, they make small changes incrementally and don't spent entire expansions fucking around with tweaking all the convoluted crap they decided to include in the box.

[LordVargK]

Threat is still an issue ask Boomkins and Fire Mages.

It is not. Not at all. No boomkin, no Fire Mage draws aggro on a boss. In m+ yes, you have to wait like 2 seconds before you unleash your burst. You still don't have to throttle your DPS anywhere.

Mana is still an issue. Ask Disc Priests.

Well, yes. It's the only issue for healers. I was of course talking about DPS mana. Should have been obvious.

I think Snapshotting still exists for Feral.

Not in the way it was before WoD

However I think all of that is fine. Dps shouldn’t be able to just be spergs. The tank should have to establish threat.

Mana management is fine too. It’s a resource.

Snapshotting. Probably go half and half here. Some liked it some didn’t. I think delegating it to one caster spec and one melee spec would be a good compromise.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but undoubtly those systems have been dialed back. So the game got way easier in one regard and more complex in others. The overall complexity did not change drastically though.

Hit Cap/Expertise Cap was fine because you had BiS lists. You didn’t have to sim yourself every time you opened the vault. Haste Breakpoints were fine for the same reason.

You did have to "sim" yourself though. In Cata you went straight to the reforger and let an addon figure out the optimal stat distribution based on stat weights you simmed before. In WotLK you had Rawr. The mindset was different though and there were less pseudo elitists running around that make a big deal out of a 0.05% DPS increase.
Also you don't have to sim yourself now. In most cases an ilvl upgrade is an upgrade for you. Simming is only (somewhat) important if you replace a piece of gear of similar ilvl. And this only shows, that stats are now pretty balanced. Because how did you decide when to replace gear in WotLK? You consulted a third party website and looked at your BIS gear list. It's really not that different. There are BIS lists right now. If you choose to ignore them and instead sim yourself you just look for a more exact measurement of your potential upgrade. The same could have been done before the weekly vault. But most people did not care back then (and most people don't care now).
BTW: Pawn exists for TBC Classic as well and is well used. It's not that you did not have to sim yourself back then. It's that simming addons were not as widely available.

[Debased]

I had the same thought (again) as I tried to decompress what I need to do in 9.1 to be raid ready. It's honestly a chore, and I hate it. In fact I almost said * it about a month into SL because of how dense all of the systems are, how there is ZERO context in-game, and how EVERYTHING is gated.

It's one thing if at the end I felt rewarded, but nah. Conduits, legos, all the crap is just an elaborate talent system, that is basically cookie-cutter all the same

[kaminaris]

Neither the complexity nor the amount matters.

Community clutched to buzzword "Systems" without realizing that game having a lot of systems isn't bad.

Complex systems are good = that actually requires you to think.
Convoluted systems are bad = that are actually simple but are confusing.

Example of super complex system is battle pets = all pets, pet abilities, pet breeds, pet combos, pet families etc.
Example of convoluted systems is current legendaries which are ultimately just a talent row crafted on a gear. There is no depth to it, just additional steps.
And that also applies to past expansions systems as well which at core are just a talent rows with extra steps, legendaries, relics, crucible, azerite, essences, etc

But when you have literally braindead gear you can't do much in that regard. Since there is always just one answer.
Now when we check PoE that is example of having many many good and complex systems that actually expands game and have depth to it.

[Ivarr]

We are junks trying to haggle with our dealer over how much laundry detergent is cut through our crack.

[Schizoide]

Casuals don't notice/care about most of the systems since they run passively in the background, the only ones confused by them are the ones focusing on them too much.

They certainly notice, I see people asking questions about this or that stupid-ass system or currency in general chat all the time.

Complexity and amount both matter. It's easy to wrap your mind around smaller numbers of simple systems. I agree that needless complexity, complexity for the sake of itself, is simply bad design, and it's fair to call those convoluted.

What we have in Shadowlands is a metric ton of fairly simple systems. It would be worse if they were all complex, certainly, but the state of 9.1 is not great.

[Aliven]

I could give a fuck about the number of systems in WoW. As long as the systems make sense, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. But the current game has systems that barely make sense, have absolutely no in-game resource to explain what their purpose is, and seemingly serve only to inconvenience a certain subsection of the playerbase (Conduit Energy says hi). It really makes you wonder why they removed things like Reforging and DoT snapshotting in an effort to streamline accessibility only to then add system after system to the game which effectively have all of the same downsides of these removed systems with none of the benefits. I hope Blizzard takes a hard look at their design philosophy moving into 10.0 and dials back some of the superfluous anti-degeneracy roadblocks they've added to the game in recent years.

Shapshotting and reforging doesnt increase MAU metrics.

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Neither the complexity nor the amount matters.

Community clutched to buzzword "Systems" without realizing that game having a lot of systems isn't bad.

Complex systems are good = that actually requires you to think.
Convoluted systems are bad = that are actually simple but are confusing.

Example of super complex system is battle pets = all pets, pet abilities, pet breeds, pet combos, pet families etc.
Example of convoluted systems is current legendaries which are ultimately just a talent row crafted on a gear. There is no depth to it, just additional steps.
And that also applies to past expansions systems as well which at core are just a talent rows with extra steps, legendaries, relics, crucible, azerite, essences, etc

But when you have literally braindead gear you can't do much in that regard. Since there is always just one answer.
Now when we check PoE that is example of having many many good and complex systems that actually expands game and have depth to it.

I would change word complex for deep and we can agree. Complex system are not good or bad. Deep systems are always good.

[Relapses]

Shapshotting and reforging doesnt increase MAU metrics.

Come on dude, if you look at everything through the lens of whether it increases MAU metrics then you'll never be satisfied with anything the developers ever do. This is such a pointlessly cynical outlook. It's like blaming all of the world's problems on capitalism. Like, yeah. It's an issue for sure. But if we're just providing a hollow repudiation of it for the sake of appealing our opinion to other people we'll never actually get to a point where we can discuss possible solutions.

[tacoloco]

Even with all of them combined they aren’t complicated your average Pokémon game post silver has more systems with more depth then wow right now.

I never said that things were more complicated because there are so many systems. Complicated isn't the point.

[Edward Wu]

The game suffers from a terminal case of the devs being too far up their own assholes. The WoW dev team genuinely thinks they are God's gift to gaming.

It's pathetic and needs to be dispelled as soon as possible. 99% of community desires aren't even being considered because the devs think those designs are beneath them and that they can do better. Even while they continuously fail.

[Relapses]

The game suffers from a terminal case of the devs being too far up their own assholes. The WoW dev team genuinely thinks they are God's gift to gaming.

It's pathetic and needs to be dispelled as soon as possible. 99% of community desires aren't even being considered because the devs think those designs are beneath them and that they can do better. Even while they continuously fail.

Your desires = / = 99% of the community's desires. Just because you log onto a wasteland of negativity like this forum and find 5 other random people to agree with your superbly unique take doesn't mean all players feel this way.

[Edward Wu]

Your desires = / = 99% of the community's desires. Just because you log onto a wasteland of negativity like this forum and find 5 other random people to agree with your superbly unique take doesn't mean all players feel this way.

It's amazing how someone can write something and have it contain absolutely nothing of substance whatsoever. Put me on ignore and stop whining to me and infesting my notifications if I'm keeping you up at night this much.

[Yizu]

Its the reason why i came back last week but stopped logging in after the 1st day. I quit the game only last tier and i got 20 new currencies in my bag that i dont know what to do with, what why?

[kaminaris]

Shapshotting and reforging doesnt increase MAU metrics.

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I would change word complex for deep and we can agree. Complex system are not good or bad. Deep systems are always good.

yeah i mean complex itself doesn't give full picture. Complex AND meaningful.

[Tiwack]

Agreed, the game used to be intuitive in design but these days it's really the opposite..

[Relapses]

It's amazing how someone can write something and have it contain absolutely nothing of substance whatsoever. Put me on ignore and stop whining to me and infesting my notifications if I'm keeping you up at night this much.

Projecting much? Jesus.