Sanctum of Domination Ending cinematic

[Vakir]

There's a high chance her memories will haunt her, and there is a high chance Blizzard will throw the "feel pity" card on us when she feels remorse and goes crazy thinking of all the things she did but was not fully in control of because instead of a soul all she had was darkness inside.

And yes, she was just a half-existing brainlet.

I mean, as long as you acknowledge it's bad storytelling.

It's not even about hate or punishment or whatever, at least not to me. There's a version of a story where you can redeem her and she makes the decision to change on her own, there's a version where she gets dragged off to Mega Hell forever and it's played as either cathartic or tragic, or anything in-between...the issue is just that this is the absolute worst version of the story they picked.

The thing that everyone seems to get away from, especially the writers themselves on Twitter, is that this can be less about what happened so much as how it happened. "This is a polarizing character! " or "The story isn't over! " is meaningless.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Controversial Take:

There's nothing inherently "bad writing" about Sylvanas characterization. The problems come from the execution, which as sucked for two major reasons:

-The major pivot from a kinda self serving, conflicted individual up to Legion, to the "Actually it has all been a charade all along" and all the edges where you can see the retcon.

-The "Lost" kind of narrative where mysteries are piled on mysteries with no resolution.

The story itself is quintessentially Warcraft -and Blizzard- it's just the way they have told it has sucked. It just really seems they realized mid Legion that she was Bad, Actually, and the shift was not well built.

If BfA had made this transition more soft instead of, you know, starting with the Genocide of the Kaldorei, it could have worked without major story changes. But the way the story has been told has failed in huge parts, building almost no good faith and instead alienating the playerbase.

But the whole "I realized my business partner does not sees me as an equal and I am going to get fucked too" Is not inherently a bad beat. I mean the whole thing about destroying existence to start fresh, only to start over another one with the same lack of intrinsic choice, is a bummer.

[Super Dickmann]

Yeah, Sylvanas being a braindead moron is the main takeaway, and at the risk of invoking Death of the Author (which I generally don't like doing), it's what I interpret as canon. Sylvanas was always an imbecile; it's why she powerslid into Frostmourne, it's why she failed in her attempt to ambush Arthas, it's why she trusted the likes of Varimathras or Lord Godfrey, it's why she basically failed upwards for the entirety of her runtime in the MMO, it's why her motives, plans and personality all shift around on a dime, and it's finally why she is full on team Jailer despite friggin Gul'dan looking and sounding less evil and untrustworthy than this guy. It all makes sense now in its own hilarious way, and it's the only way I'll ever interpret the character moving forward; always remember that she's the one stupidest character in Warcraft, which is no mean feat by the by.

It's obviously not intended, but you can create an extremely compelling argument that Sylvanas's real problem comes not to her being paranoid or thinking the worst of people but the opposite. She's actually just the world's most terrible judge of character who wants to think the best of everyone, give them the benefit of the doubt and every single failure of hers dates back to her acting in this way. From Varimathras and Putress who she gave jobs to and assumed would be content with not dying, to every named post-Cataclysm Forsaken who after being given free reign either turned on her or sabotaged her plans in some way like Godfrey and Galen and up to BFA with Sadfang. You can even tie into her overall trust issues since she also gets to feel betrayed by her sisters and her homeland after the former turned on her and the latter refused to help her until she carried them. Sadfang not stabbing Malfurion obviously causes her some angst given their final fight. She repeatedly trusts someone, gets fucked over and then looks for someone else to attach to. Over time, this results in her mistrusting even those who do actually want to help her, no strings attached, like the Forsaken, Nathanos or the Valks, fucking up her relationships with them as well. The Blue Man is just the ultimate example of this sad psychological complex she has and having lost everyone else she stays in denial about this extremely blatantly evil dude since if the guy who saved her doesn't give a shit either then she's all on her own.

Being too trusting and by proxy stupid however can't be an acknowledged flaw when you play this character as this paranoid 8D Chess playing intellect but that you can even go over this mental exercise at all and have it make some sense is an indictment of how terribly they've missed the mark in what they tried to do.

Re: the Jailer's new set - it's better, but just bland. I was thinking they'd go for a more ethereal look, aping the Arbiter's own design since it's now confirmed he used to be the original. It could still be that was his original look with the chest wound still on his plate being where the other Eternal Ones tore out his heart/sigil and that before the realms it was just the Maw, with Oribos being a riff on Torghast from which he ruled but I don't buy it and I don't think Blizzard thought that far.

[Bloomer]

As much as I disliked his Handsome Squidward appearance, anyone else disappointed by the fact that his design turned into "Maw NPC#454352" after getting his armor back?

[Smallfruitbat]

Controversial Take:

There's nothing inherently "bad writing" about Sylvanas characterization. The problems come from the execution, which as sucked for two major reasons:

-The major pivot from a kinda self serving, conflicted individual up to Legion, to the "Actually it has all been a charade all along" and all the edges where you can see the retcon.

-The "Lost" kind of narrative where mysteries are piled on mysteries with no resolution.

The story itself is quintessentially Warcraft -and Blizzard- it's just the way they have told it has sucked. It just really seems they realized mid Legion that she was Bad, Actually, and the shift was not well built.

If BfA had made this transition more soft instead of, you know, starting with the Genocide of the Kaldorei, it could have worked without major story changes. But the way the story has been told has failed in huge parts, building almost no good faith and instead alienating the playerbase.

But the whole "I realized my business partner does not sees me as an equal and I am going to get fucked too" Is not inherently a bad beat. I mean the whole thing about destroying existence to start fresh, only to start over another one with the same lack of intrinsic choice, is a bummer.

I agree the biggest problem is the execution of the story. The trouble is, Blizzard are trying to tell the story through multiple mediums most of which conflict. Whether or not you like the novels, there are big beats in the story that conflict with what happen in game. The one that stuck out the most was Jaina at the end of Warcrimes 'Sure, I'll try and give the Horde another chance.' First appearance in WoD 'Screw the Horde, they are evil incarnate.' Someone needs to either keep a tighter rein on the writers or make sure the books are edited in line with where the in game stuff is going before publishing.

They also seem to have these big ideas, and then fail to follow through with them. The Night Warrior for example, the personification of Elunes vengeance, super powerful. What we get in game is Tyrande running around screaming 'muh revenge' and doing nothing spectacular with the power.

We get the cunning and sly Sylvanas, oblivious to the fact the Jailer is clearly not going to treat her as equal, try to take him out with a single arrow. -Oh please! A few tweaks and they could have made the story look far less contrived. World of Warcraft is in many ways a simple world, we don't need overly complicated plots and mysteries. Simple story-telling is much better and more suited to what they are able to do in game.

[Iheartnathanos]

In my version of this story she would have quickly seen the Jailer's true intentions after arriving in the Maw and developed her own plan to betray him. Let him break free and invade Azeroth but sabotage him in some way or secretly give us some advantage to ensure we defeat him. Then while we're all distracted she can take over the Shadowlands for herself, say by possessing the Arbiter's body or something. And the final patch would have us invade and destroy the new paradise realm she created for us.

She burned down Teldrassil for this.

She started a pointless war for this.

FFS now that her moment is here LET HER ACTUALLY ATTEMPT TO DO THE THING.

What even is THE THING? It is so unclear what she actually wants. It has been 3 years of snide hints.

[Xilurm]

I'm not even gonna bother writing longer posts, this story doesn't deserve that. Really, it doesn't deserve the attention it's getting, negative or otherwise. It deserves to disappear in the pits of hell forever, never to be mentioned again.

How does it feel to have finally seen the light?

[exochaft]

I agree the biggest problem is the execution of the story. The trouble is, Blizzard are trying to tell the story through multiple mediums most of which conflict. Whether or not you like the novels, there are big beats in the story that conflict with what happen in game. The one that stuck out the most was Jaina at the end of Warcrimes 'Sure, I'll try and give the Horde another chance.' First appearance in WoD 'Screw the Horde, they are evil incarnate.' Someone needs to either keep a tighter rein on the writers or make sure the books are edited in line with where the in game stuff is going before publishing.

This why I enjoy the overarching narrative of the world versus the "highschool drama" narrative we get in-game. It's absolutely an execution issue, as a player just using in-game lore and story is left scratching their head as to what is going on or not invested in the story at all.

For example, the experience of the Battle of Ardenweald is absolutely not congruent with what the situation is meant to be, and that's completely an execution problem. Instead of a built-up problem that is escalating over time, all you do is kill some things and click some things... and it's over. Anduin just comes out of bloody nowhere and leaves while the player is just dicking around apparently, which is just jarring. It would've been way more effective story-telling if they ripped off the Halls of Reflection dungeon: instead of the Lich King, you have Anduin join the fight and just destroy everything in his path... and have him just slowly making his way towards his goal while you as the player try to keep ahead of him. A sense of impending doom and dread would be a welcome addition to any battle scenario of this type, but there's nothing but one-shotting a few mobs then a cutscene. In fact, many pertinent events in-game don't even involve the player, so I think the writers and the game designers together leave holes where the player misses out on not only a good experience, but also relevant plot points.

Ultimately, I think it's terrible game design if a player cannot logically follow the main story in WoW without reading external media sources. You can have supplemental material that goes into more detail or expands upon events, but the key word is supplemental. Crucial events and plot points need to be in the game and experienced by the player, period.

[Xilurm]

I hope she does get a redemption arc. I actually like Sylvanas.

Redemption arcs are cool and all, but not when they involve the murder of millions.

Like Garrosh for example, he didn't deserve a redemption arc, he didn't get one, and most important of all, he didn't even want one.

There's literally NOTHING that Sylvanas can do that can redeem her. Even if she gets to "save" the universe, the people she murdered remain dead. Unless somehow she brings them back to life.

[bowlink]

Redemption arcs are cool and all, but not when they involve the murder of millions.

Like Garrosh for example, he didn't deserve a redemption arc, he didn't get one, and most important of all, he didn't even want one.

There's literally NOTHING that Sylvanas can do that can redeem her. Even if she gets to "save" the universe, the people she murdered remain dead. Unless somehow she brings them back to life.

Exactly this isn't Ender's game where the protagonist didn't know he was dooming thousands apon thousands to slaughter.

Sylvanas knew full well she doomed milions to the maw by burning teldrassil and insighting the most bloody war since the scourge.

She isn't a maverick like illidan who lives by the ends justify the means.

Shes been trying to save her own ass and nothing more.

[Nerovar]

Also, we know that undead senses are numbed and their souls twisted so that they can't feel their rotting body. Now that an untouched part of her soul got back to her, maybe she will...

That part is rooted in the fact that the souls of the undead are imperfectly attached to their bodies so it shouldn't really change for Sylvanas.

[arrantprac]

What even is THE THING? It is so unclear what she actually wants. It has been 3 years of snide hints.

Yeah, that's the biggest reason we need an actual payoff and why her giving it up at the critical moment just ruins everything they tried to build up to.

[Gorsameth]

What even is THE THING? It is so unclear what she actually wants. It has been 3 years of snide hints.

Sylvanas motivations are actually one of the few things that is well established. She is utterly utterly afraid of dying and what comes after. That is why she tried to enslave the Valkyr in Legion (to be able to be constantly resurrected, tho the SL retcon of her having worked for the jailer all along and the Valkyr working for the Jailor makes this a big Oo) and why she joined the Jailer.

[Feanoro]

@Xilurm @bowlink
Just think, we've had people on this forum completely sneering at the prediction of Sylvanas Kerrigan, and it's unfolding now.

[bagina]

How does it feel to have finally seen the light?

I feel... free. I can finally let go of the shitpile that is WoW's story and forget I've ever been interested in it. I don't have to lie to myself anymore. I'm a changed person.

[Soon-TM]

I feel... free. I can finally let go of the shitpile that is WoW's story and forget I've ever been interested in it. I don't have to lie to myself anymore. I'm a changed person.

It looks like Danuser redeemed not only his waifu, but also (indirectly) you. You should be thankful to the guy

[Frontenac]

That part is rooted in the fact that the souls of the undead are imperfectly attached to their bodies so it shouldn't really change for Sylvanas.

They could always say that missing a part of your soul makes it imperfectly attached to your body...

- - - Updated - - -

@Xilurm @bowlink
Just think, we've had people on this forum completely sneering at the prediction of Sylvanas Kerrigan, and it's unfolding now.

People were saying the same thing about Illidan Kerrigan in Legion and it never happened. We'll see.

[Nerovar]

They could always say that missing a part of your soul makes it imperfectly attached to your body...

Yeah, but assuming she's still undead her soul would still be impferctly attached to her dead body. The only difference is that it's a whole soul now instead of a fragment.

[Varodoc]

Oh boy I can't wait for the next CGI Sylvanas cinematic (this time featuring azure eyes!), meanwhile the Allied race leaders have been gathering dust in the corner since 2018. Why can't we have a cinematic about Magister Umbric instead? Because Danuser doesn't feel attracted to him I guess.

[Darth-Piekus]

Oh boy I can't wait for the next CGI Sylvanas cinematic (this time featuring azure eyes!), meanwhile the Allied race leaders have been gathering dust in the corner since 2018. Why can't we have a cinematic about Magister Umbric instead? Because Danuser doesn't feel attracted to him I guess.

All I can say is wow. Everything swept under the rug with the excuse that it was the bad soul that did all that. It's too bad Arthas didn't had that choice and he was a much more popular and better character than Sylvannas will ever be. I am really speechless. It's so nice from the devs to take a crap to the majority of the playerbase not to mention butchering the character of Sylvannas like noone ever before.