Sylvanas’ Culpability *spoilers*

[Soulwind]

There's no doubt that she was lied to by the Jailer -- the WoW story establishes this firmly. But it would be unfair and irrational to judge her too harshly for trusting him; far more omniscient beings than her have been fooled by far less powerful beings than the Jailer, in fiction.

Is there a single villain in Warcraft who wouldn't be in that list? Everyone was corrupted, maddened or misled by something. None get the benefit of the doubt except Sylvanas. Whose whole character was built around being too smart and/or independent to be manipulated by others.

If anything, she should be held to a higher standard than, say, Arthas, or Deathwing, or Kil'jaeden, or Azshara, or Sargeras. All of whom were manipulated by beings they had no understanding of, and who appealed to their arrogance and goals.

Sylvanas escaped Arthas' control only to turn around and serve a guy (who pretty much cosplays as the Lich King) who only talked about power, control and submission. And we're now supposed to not only believe her Pikachu face when the guy used her to get enough power to submit the universe to his control, but even feel sorry for her? I feel sorry that her character got butchered like that, sure, but I have no sympathy for the cardboard-cutout-of-a-person she is now.

[Ivarr]

There's no doubt that she was lied to by the Jailer -- the WoW story establishes this firmly. But it would be unfair and irrational to judge her too harshly for trusting him; far more omniscient beings than her have been fooled by far less powerful beings than the Jailer, in fiction.

Either he committed genocide and she's a weak impotent puppet of a character. Or she's the one who committed the genocide and responsible for it. She's either a better person and a worse character, or a better character and a worse person.

Is there a single villain in Warcraft who wouldn't be in that list? Everyone was corrupted, maddened or misled by something. None get the benefit of the doubt except Sylvanas. Whose whole character was built around being too smart and/or independent to be manipulated by others.

And the same bait and switch can be pulled on the Jailor. He was merely misled by someone else who was the real villain. That way responsibility keeps shifting but the audience never gets to make up their own mind.

I don't know what it is with modern writers and their reluctance to let their characters face consequences for anything. There's some serious rot setting into our pop culture.

[sighy]

Vader died in canon too, and was so utterly reviled by everybody aside from Luke that it would ruin the whole career of Leia if people figured out her real father was Vader.

Sylvanas death fits perfectly within the trope of "maker of your own misfortune" and "too far gone to be redeemed without dying".

I meant it more in the context that, if Galen Marek chooses to kill Vader everyone he cares about dies, he gets scorched and turned into a semi-machine like Vader was enslaved to the Emperor's whims. And Vader's redemption, in the canonical timeline is on a more personal level, where he never did anything to redeem himself, in the eyes of the galaxy at large.

And while it's true that she can fit that archetype I'm inclined to believe that it'd be a waste to axe her, in the long run. As a storyarc i find it more interesting, when characters can't just take the "noble suicide" option and have to work for it. For one it leaves room for further character development and it also leaves more room for interesting options down the line like saving Aleria from the Void, whenever that storyarc rolls around. I agree she is definately going to be out of the spotlight for some time after the xpac concludes regardless of the fine details.


Not to mention the characters present are Thrall, whose entire character is basically based on rehabilitation, Bolvar, who probably has the best idea what kind of difference the soul can make and Jaina, who has become a bit more wholesome after her BfA arc and likely could be talked down, by the other two, with the additional incentive of Sylvanas having more insight into the Jailer's inner workings. (That said i do find it amusing Vereesa knew the Sylvanas we had was basically the evil twin, for decades and told literally noone, in all that time.)

[Uzkin]

Either he committed genocide and she's a weak impotent puppet of a character. Or she's the one who committed the genocide. She's either a better person and a worse character, or a better character and a worse person.

You are trying to impose these binary categories, but that's not the case here. She committed genocide for what she thought to be greater good. The Jailer simply didn't fulfill his part of the plan. Of course, an emphatic actor would not nuke a city full of civilians even during a war -- such an action requires quite profound lack of empathy, e.g. due to not having a soul.

[Ivarr]

You are trying to impose these binary categories, but that's not the case here. She committed genocide for what she thought to be greater good. The Jailer simply didn't fulfill his part of the plan. Of course, an emphatic actor would not nuke a city full of civilians even during a war -- such an action requires quite profound lack of empathy, e.g. due to not having a soul.

If that's the defense you want to lock in, then you hereby chose to make her a weak character in order to make her a good person.

[Uzkin]

I am going to leave these two ideas to you.
If we can't punish Sylvanas because there is an innocent soul there ... that would be like a Thoma de rhenes. Bring out the innocent and voila.
If by changing "you are not fair for being someone else" then in wow you get a piece of soul or you get corrupted with something and you are unpunished.

Well, that's just how things are in fiction in which the concept of soul is real. Losing one's soul profoundly changes one's personality. If one's soul is removed against one's will, then that person is not to be blamed for the decisions and actions he/she made due to not having a soul.

When she got her soul back her personality transformed back to someone who would (likely) not nuke a city full of civilians. The soulful Sylvanas is not culpable for the actions made by the soulless Sylvanas.

- - - Updated - - -

If that's the defense you want to lock in, then you hereby chose to make her a weak character in order to make her a good person.

Nah, you just keep insisting such. But I don't buy into your binary categories.

[Ivarr]

Yeah. Her character is totally protected.
https://streamable.com/emlhqg

[bagina]

There's no doubt that she was lied to by the Jailer -- the WoW story establishes this firmly. But it would be unfair and irrational to judge her too harshly for trusting him; far more omniscient beings than her have been fooled by far less powerful beings than the Jailer, in fiction.

Fuck no. FUCK NO. It's precisely because he is what is she should have NEVER trusted him. It doesn't make sense for her to put her blind trust in a powerful, seemingly malevolent entity. And he didn't even fucking "trick" her. He was pretty fucking honest with his intentions, as far as literal Satans go. He didn't mind control her, he didn't blackmail her, he just spun a tale and Sylvanas just went with it, no questions asked. They won't ever show how that deal went about because they literally can't, there's just no way of portraying something like that without it turning into a fullblown parody. And if other NPCs could tell at first glance that Jailer is up to no good, why couldn't Sylvanas? She's a fucking asshole, it takes one to know one. Because she's a grade A cunt, she should've seen through the Jailer right away. It's just completely wrong for her not to. She didn't even consider the possibily? Like, just in case, worst case scenario? It's just fucking immpossible, plain and simple.

Just fucking think about it. Just think about it. It's not some petty crime, we're talking about remaking the fucking reality here. The sheer fucking magnitude of that endeavour. The sheer fucking scale of that shit. You don't go into something like that without spending at least 5 minutes of some careful consideration. You don't just go about remaking the fucking cosmos without some planning, you don't do that if you're not pretty fucking convinced in your ideals. Few fucking years has Sylvanas been serving.. oh pardon, working with the Jailer. Few years to think, to asses the risks and think things through. Countless instances of Arthas-like behaviour, throwing the S word around, and nope. It all was forgotten. Blizz act like she's traumatised and the sheer mention of the word "serve" reawakens her trauma when they had her throw that word around like it means nothing. It doesn't work that way. You can't have cake and eat it too.

Don't try to justify it. No matter how you try to spin it, it's bad. Bad. BAD! Bad and fucked three ways from sunday.


Oh man, I have much more to say, but I won't. It's not worth it. I owe it to myself to just move on as soon as it's possible.

[Atrea]

This thread has definitely delivered.

The nerdrage at peoples' headcanon not being confirmed, the new headcanon being spun. It's just wonderful to see.

[Uzkin]

And he didn't even fucking "trick" her. He was pretty fucking honest with his intentions, as far as literal Satans go. He didn't mind control her, he didn't blackmail her, he just spun a tale and Sylvanas just went with it, no questions asked.

Lol, that's a record-fast way to contradict oneself.

[bagina]

Lol, that's a record-fast way to contradict oneself.

Not a native speaker and used that expression wrong. I just meant he told her his intentions and she went with them.

Doesn't change how bad it the development is.

[Neverafter]

"SYLVANAS BURNED TELDRASIL BECAUSE SHE WANTED ALL TO SERVE DEATH"

Did she though? I realize the headcannon is strong in this thread and Sylvanas is a polarizing character, but I don't know if burning Teldrasil was her end goal. It seemed to me to be more a moment of rashness. The whole "you can't kill hope" thing. Sylvanas wanted to start a war. And she accomplished that. But she didn't have to burn Teldrasil to accomplish that. The war machines and everything are still there, she could have simply attacked it, destroyed part, etc. Yea, this is headcannon also, but the way the cinematic plays out isn't like, "ok, continue with the plan to burn the tree". Its more, "ok, change of plans, burn it", and when the soldiers hesitate she yells "BURN IT!" It seems Blizz has been trying to show more nuanced emotion in some of their cinematics, especially in regard to Sylvanas.

[Mehrunes]

As if the lore will go as deep into the topic as the issue of culpability. Sylvanas will help us out against the Jailer and that's that.

[Le Conceptuel]

Fuck no. FUCK NO. It's precisely because he is what is she should have NEVER trusted him. It doesn't make sense for her to put her blind trust in a powerful, seemingly malevolent entity. And he didn't even fucking "trick" her. He was pretty fucking honest with his intentions, as far as literal Satans go. He didn't mind control her, he didn't blackmail her, he just spun a tale and Sylvanas just went with it, no questions asked. They won't ever show how that deal went about because they literally can't, there's just no way of portraying something like that without it turning into a fullblown parody. And if other NPCs could tell at first glance that Jailer is up to no good, why couldn't Sylvanas? She's a fucking asshole, it takes one to know one. Because she's a grade A cunt, she should've seen through the Jailer right away. It's just completely wrong for her not to. She didn't even consider the possibily? Like, just in case, worst case scenario? It's just fucking immpossible, plain and simple.

Just fucking think about it. Just think about it. It's not some petty crime, we're talking about remaking the fucking reality here. The sheer fucking magnitude of that endeavour. The sheer fucking scale of that shit. You don't go into something like that without spending at least 5 minutes of some careful consideration. You don't just go about remaking the fucking cosmos without some planning, you don't do that if you're not pretty fucking convinced in your ideals. Few fucking years has Sylvanas been serving.. oh pardon, working with the Jailer. Few years to think, to asses the risks and think things through. Countless instances of Arthas-like behaviour, throwing the S word around, and nope. It all was forgotten. Blizz act like she's traumatised and the sheer mention of the word "serve" reawakens her trauma when they had her throw that word around like it means nothing. It doesn't work that way. You can't have cake and eat it too.

Don't try to justify it. No matter how you try to spin it, it's bad. Bad. BAD! Bad and fucked three ways from sunday.


Oh man, I have much more to say, but I won't. It's not worth it. I owe it to myself to just move on as soon as it's possible.

I mean, to be entirely fair, Sylvanas is kind of an idiot. That's been pretty well-established from the get-go. She's a savant when it comes to tactics (especially given the low bar she's up against), but she's not particularly bright.

[Nerovar]

As if the lore will go as deep into the topic as the issue of culpability. Sylvanas will help us out against the Jailer and that's that.

Pretty much this. The moment someone is on the good side again (for whatever reason) they will not face any consequences.

[Le Conceptuel]

As if the lore will go as deep into the topic as the issue of culpability. Sylvanas will help us out against the Jailer and that's that.

Well, the question is more how people will respond afterwards. Someone either has to kill her, or not kill her, or do something with her. She obviously won't just disappear after this--she needs to do something, and the others need to respond in some way. Things obviously do not occur in a vacuum, and that's the topic at hand.

[TBCCLOL]

The Lore is shit, Sylvanas was Edgy an Unpredictable early in WoW and know is just an annoy yandere.

[Le Conceptuel]

That was the real 6d underwater backgammon. Just like she's aware she's a character in a book and so hides her true intentions even in internal monologue to deceive the reader she uses her meta abilities to set up her own redemption. Truly devilish.

This whole time, Danuser has actually been Sylvanas in disguise. I mean, she's a narcissistic dictator--do you really think she wouldn't be utterly obsessed with herself? Think, Dickmann, think!

[Mehrunes]

Looks like Baine is going to have defend another warchief in court again.

I wonder how will he try to believably claim he's not an Alliance bootlicker this time, given how he literally cut off a part of his body and sent it to the Alliance's High King just because he could no longer be his pen pal since the previous trial.

Well, the question is more how people will respond afterwards. Someone either has to kill her, or not kill her, or do something with her. She obviously won't just disappear after this--she needs to do something, and the others need to respond in some way. Things obviously do not occur in a vacuum, and that's the topic at hand.

That's precisely what I was talking about. The act of helping us alone will itself redeem Sylvanas, brush everything under the carpet and the plot will contort itself so that Sylvanas will face no repercussions. No one on the good guys side ever does in Warcraft. Especially if they are of the pro-Blanduin variety of good guys.

[Le Conceptuel]

I wonder how will he try to believably claim he's not an Alliance bootlicker this time, given how he literally cut off a part of his body and sent it to the Alliance's High King just because he could no longer be his pen pal since the previous trial.




That's precisely what I was talking about. The act of helping us alone will itself redeem Sylvanas, brush everything under the carpet and the plot will contort itself so that Sylvanas will face no repercussions. No one on the good guys side ever does in Warcraft. Especially if they are of the pro-Blanduin variety of good guys.

Are you certain? Naïve of me, perhaps, but I'd assume they'd at least make some effort to tie up the loose end. I'd presume the Forsaken wouldn't welcome her back, so where would Sylvie go?