Hiring People from the Elitist Jerks site was a mistake.

[Glorious Leader]

Funny how we can't even agree on simple things like this. Is it raid or die?

For the record how much casual content there is and how much relevant casual content there is, is a different matter. Like what's the endgame for professions? Do you crossbreed plants for your garden? Do you do ocean fishing? Do you decipher teasure maps?

You can't say the game is not made for raiders if the main story is finished in raids and mythic only phases are canon.

Wether the raiders like the content they are given is a different matter.

The game is absolutely made for raiders but you'll never get these people to admit it because it would absolutely expose their privilege. Look when push came to shove and they had to justify the enormous expense and cost of raiding instead of moving resources to developer other content the developers just jammed raiding downs everyone's throat. LFR is the perfect example of how privileged raids are.

[Wangming]

The game is absolutely made for raiders but you'll never get these people to admit it because it would absolutely expose their privilege. Look when push came to shove and they had to justify the enormous expense and cost of raiding instead of moving resources to developer other content the developers just jammed raiding downs everyone's throat. LFR is the perfect example of how privileged raids are.

Genius

- Only putting genunine effort into raiding is awesome.
- But boss, only a minority of our players raid at a high level.
- No prob, let's dumb down raids.
- Say what?
- Let's create a raiding difficulty that is so easy it isn't fun for everyone, but at least anyone can clear it. Then they can't say we are developing for a minority.

Triple A company.

[potis]

The game is absolutely made for raiders but you'll never get these people to admit it because it would absolutely expose their privilege. Look when push came to shove and they had to justify the enormous expense and cost of raiding instead of moving resources to developer other content the developers just jammed raiding downs everyone's throat. LFR is the perfect example of how privileged raids are.

What privilege? There isnt any, its just plain facts.

I have been saying that if you arent raiding in WoW, even as a casual Normal raider, you are playing the wrong game and you are the problem and you are wasting your money.

And every time i have been saying it for 15 years, i get bashed about "THERE ARE SO MANY MORE THINGS TO DO IN WOW, ITS NOT ABOUT RAIDING".

[Triceron]

The game is absolutely made for raiders but you'll never get these people to admit it because it would absolutely expose their privilege

Er, those people aren't the problem, Blizzard choosing to pigeonhole all of end game content into raiding is the problem. It has nothing to do with 'privelege'.

[OrcsRLame]

Well who else to blame, when the game is raid or die. Like what PvE endgame do you have beside mythic + and raiding? You can't say the game was designed for casuals, can you?

As someone that used to hardcore raid but quit wow due to how grindy it became just to maintain one character, I never asked for any of this shit lol. So don't bother blaming me.

[Kokolums]

It was hilariously strict. If you did the cardinal sin to not be 100% on-topic or 100% original or even 100% with good english even if you were extremely polite: ban without warning.

I liked it for optimizing raiding: but for the general public: absolutely haram.

Its amazing how forums can be so hilariously bad at policing bad apples.

What most posters want is moderation to ban:
1. people who launch personal attacks
2. people who gossip about other posters

And so many forums fail to get it right. In fact, many moderators seems to be the biggest offenders, attacking other posters personally, playing favorites, coddling "yes men" and spreading gossip, all shielded with a faux crusade to "weed out troublemakers". Absolutely toxic. The EJ forums were a super special case of stupid with grammar police on top of it.

[Tortuga234]

For example, one new problem in recent expansions is dungeons used to be considered casual content. Now it is hardcore content thanks to Mythic +. Even transmogs and mounts require hardcore raiding if you want to get all the best ones.

Noone forces you to go M+. Also, should they just hand you "best ones" on a silver plate just for logging it. I mean you literally said "best ones", usually there is some work implied.

[Echo of Soul]

It's hard to take someone seriously when their reasoning for removing pvp vendors was because "players couldn't find them".

That's literally how a MMORPG should work. Putting shit in menus and UI elements is the complete opposite.
Ion would know this if he had taken a basic game design course.

[Diaphin]

I really don't get that game. I tried it for a few days and it felt like a bad copy cat of wow because the lore was completely nonsense (especially if you didn't know the lore before first entering 14) and I didn't see anything special in mechanics to make it more fun (in fact: it looks a bit more clunky). It's like playing a polished turd wow shat.

- - - Updated - - -

It becomes better once you reach around Heavensward and the gameplay becomes better I would say arround 60 or 70. The long GCD makes sense if you consider that most classes have much more abilities than what would be common in WoW and that they involve long combo chains and weaving ogcd abilities in betweeh, which makes the game much faster, as long as you're not a healer or a tank.

[epigramx]

Its amazing how forums can be so hilariously bad at policing bad apples.

What most posters want is moderation to ban:
1. people who launch personal attacks
2. people who gossip about other posters

And so many forums fail to get it right. In fact, many moderators seems to be the biggest offenders, attacking other posters personally, playing favorites, coddling "yes men" and spreading gossip, all shielded with a faux crusade to "weed out troublemakers". Absolutely toxic. The EJ forums were a super special case of stupid with grammar police on top of it.

To be fair: unlike the regular forum they were very consistent at what they were doing: favorites were not a thing they were playing (at least not obviously). The system sort-of worked because it was clear that the purpose of the strictness was to raise the quality of PURE theorycrafting and trim out ANYTHING having to do with the social aspect of the game or generally anything subjective about the mechanics of it.

The main point I was making though is that while that works if you want to be optimal at raiding: it can be a negative for the general public: the game itself started as a sort of "Everquest but for the general public and prettier!" so WoW really was never something that based its biggest successes on the hard core players even though it could accommodate even them at its absolute best (Ulduar).

[shimerra]

Its amazing how forums can be so hilariously bad at policing bad apples.

What most posters want is moderation to ban:
1. people who launch personal attacks
2. people who gossip about other posters

And so many forums fail to get it right. In fact, many moderators seems to be the biggest offenders, attacking other posters personally, playing favorites, coddling "yes men" and spreading gossip, all shielded with a faux crusade to "weed out troublemakers". Absolutely toxic. The EJ forums were a super special case of stupid with grammar police on top of it.

Also people like it when those who post wild conspiracy theories constantly with no basis in reality. Especially in the politics forum.

*cough**

[Glorious Leader]

Er, those people aren't the problem, Blizzard choosing to pigeonhole all of end game content into raiding is the problem. It has nothing to do with 'privelege'.

That's 1000% privilege because if we assume that the amount of effort and resources blizzard will put into the game is finite then at some point they'll pick favorites. Privelege.

[Crimson Spears]

That's 1000% privilege because if we assume that the amount of effort and resources blizzard will put into the game is finite then at some point they'll pick favorites. Privelege.

It just strikes me as odd how they never seem to do what raiders want if they are the ones being focused on... all ive seen raiders ask for is better raids and dungeons with less busy work via grinding.

All they get is more and more busy work grinds. Its weird how things work that was isn't it?

[Triceron]

That's 1000% privilege because if we assume that the amount of effort and resources blizzard will put into the game is finite then at some point they'll pick favorites. Privelege.

Of course it's finite, it will never be infinite.

But Blizzard picking and choosing what content to focus on is not privilege, otherwise you could also call store mounts for 6-month subs to be privilege too. They could be spending that time making more visual content, but instead you should be happy as a 6-month subber, right? Privilege.

[Wangming]

It just strikes me as odd how they never seem to do what raiders want if they are the ones being focused on... all ive seen raiders as for is better raids and dungeons with less busy work via grinding.

All they get is more and more busy work grinds. Its weird how things work that was isn't it?

Well because they are a bunch of corporate asshats focusing on raid content. We never said they are good at their job.

[epigramx]

It just strikes me as odd how they never seem to do what raiders want if they are the ones being focused on... all ive seen raiders ask for is better raids and dungeons with less busy work via grinding.

All they get is more and more busy work grinds. Its weird how things work that was isn't it?

Well because they are a bunch of corporate asshats focusing on raid content. We never said they are good at their job.

Grinds are shoehorned into the game all the time because the goal is to keep players playing. Grinds often take more than 1 monthly fee so it makes them money. It becomes worse if you add on that the microtransactions and pay to win schemes (like "buy gold to buy BOEs/boost runs to win over others") because then it's solidified that while the game makes a lot of money: the subs are diminished because the few players that remain are of a similar type of a person with sunk cost fallacy or/and addiction and very few that actually liked a game for the first time.

[Glorious Leader]

Of course it's finite, it will never be infinite.

But Blizzard picking and choosing what content to focus on is not privilege.

Of course it is. What else would call it? Raiders may not ultimately be responsible but that doesn't mean they aren't privileged by it.

- - - Updated - - -

It just strikes me as odd how they never seem to do what raiders want if they are the ones being focused on...

They don't? You get a raid every patch... Thats the best part is that this is occurrence is so natural to you you can't conceive of a game where that didn't happen and because its perfectly natural and correct you don't understand how its you thats being catered and yes ultimately privileged.

[Crimson Spears]

Of course it is. What else would call it? Raiders may not ultimately be responsible but that doesn't mean they aren't privileged by it.

- - - Updated - - -



They don't? You get a raid every patch... Thats the best part is that this is occurrence is so natural to you you can't conceive of a game where that didn't happen and because its perfectly natural and correct you don't understand how its you thats being catered and yes ultimately privileged.

I can't recall a single patch that didn't add a quest. I can recall .5 patches that didn't add raids.

Check and mate gg

[Triceron]

Of course it is. What else would call it? Raiders may not ultimately be responsible but that doesn't mean they aren't privileged by it.

Privilege means special right or advantage.

There is no special advantage in having raiding as content. It's made available to even the most common player through LFR, so I'm not quite sure why you consider it a privilege at all if all players are funneled to this one source of content. It's actually the opposite of being a privilege, it is the default end game.

Raids aren't a privilege, they are a mainstay, a standard. That anyone raids is them doing the standard content that everyone else is doing. Raids are standard content provided in every major content patch.

Perhaps you think privilege means something beyond this?

[epigramx]

Privilege means special right or advantage.

There is no special advantage in having raiding as content. It's made available to even the most common player through LFR, so I'm not quite sure why you consider it a privilege at all if all players are funneled to this one source of content. It's actually the opposite of being a privilege, it is the default end game.

Raids aren't a privilege, they are a mainstay, a standard. That anyone raids is them doing the standard content that everyone else is doing. Raids are standard content provided in every major content patch.

Perhaps you think privilege means something beyond this?

That would only be true if everyone liked LFR (and probably very few do). I don't care that much about that raiding related subject but I think what those people mean is that they prefer a game that raiding is not as important and not the end game at all.

But I doubt that WoW was ever that; while raiding was less streamlined into the main story before it was still always the most important part of the story; I guess it's mainly people from FF14 talking like that (though I guess Vanilla was less about it).