Sanctum of Domination Raid Finale - Chains of Domination Cinematic

[Lorgar Aurelian]

That didn't take long to be unlisted from YouTube search.

It was uploaded unlisted days before the raid opened.

[Eapoe]

This argument only makes sense if sylvanas has been walking around for the entire duration of the events of shadowlands with her eyes literally closed (what with the jailer's entire MO being using enslaved souls to serve him). Actually, it doesn't even then because the whole point of the Anduin arc was an anaemic attempt to show the seed of doubt being placed in her mind.

Further, it's not just or even primarily what happened that's the issue it's how it was executed. Goth emo waifu has been consistently portrayed as a 5d chess playing omegabrain who's deceived and outfoxed everyone to achieve her goals. You're telling me she hasn't even conceptualised the jailer's sudden but inevitable betrayal until her 'sons of Martha' moment?


Come on dude it's because they were killed by frostmourne it's basically stated directly in the Bastion afterlives short, simply saying 'we just don't know' is a meaningless defence because blizzard intentionally rarely directly confirms things because ambiguity makes it easier to pivot without being accused of retconning things or dropping story threads.

Further, even if uther and sylvanas are 'exceptions' that is just creating an intentionally inconsistent plot contrivance explicitly to retroactively remove agency from a character, all of those things are from chapter 2 of bad writing techniques 101.

The argument makes sense when you realize that she doesn’t have the full story. She isn’t seeing every aspect we are. Hell, our own characters don’t see every aspect we see as players. She isn’t privy to everything happening in the world, let alone what the Jailer does without her when he acts alone and/or conspires with other characters.
The “how” it’s executed thing is also not as terrible or as you make it out, especially once you realize what I typed in the last paragraph. She is not omnipotent and she doesn’t see all. Seeing Anduin, who in certain cutscenes has been shown to have something like respect for him, ring enslaved as a weapon while the Jailer’s words and motives become more like the Lich King’s finally struck home to her as to what he is about.

We know it was because they were killed by the blade. What I stated we don’t know is why those two so far. There has been no one else revealed to us. So the speculation is to what caused their souls to split the way it did. Was it a fluke? Was it Uther’s conviction to the light? If it was Uther’s conviction, then why Sylvanas? Is it because Arthas did this to them on purpose, to make them struggle in death. See where the speculation comes from now?
How do any of those things remove agency from anyone? If anything, it could be used for further plots and motivations.
Your biggest problem, from what it seems, is that you are making up issues with the fact you don’t know everything and not knowing that bothers you. You must hate cliff hanger movies, or movies that end with no real resolution.

[dunkl]

Whether those of us players/fans enjoyed it or not, whatever side your on or those who are indifferent, you don't need to care one way or another or be on a bandwagon, the truth is, it's been a very long time and I feel that her being reunited with her soul should have been a quieter, personal moment. A scene of reflection and they could have really built up the curiousness as to whether she was going to merge with her soul after so many years of seeking and torment, or, if she'd embrace herself as is/the soulless part of her walks away from becoming whole.

It also could have been a beautiful character based moment, one we've waited for for a long time and one that kind of defines the wc/wow story. I feel like it wasn't handled well, and that we as fans and players weren't' considered, I feel like the writer doens't like anyone, that is my only explanation for why this moment which should have been handled with care and compassion not just to Sylvanas's character arc but to us as fans and players, was an event that happened during someone else's scenes rather than her own. The writer seems to hate everyone, otherwise Sylvanas reuniting with her soul would be it's own special thing, not part of some forgettable spectacle.

Wondering about when, where, how, if Sylvanas will ever get her soul back, to me, was always an deep and curious thing to think about, and exciting to go over possibilities. Before Shadowlands, while I did imagine she'd be alone during her quest to find her soul, and upon nearing it or meetting it would have a choice to make, I also pictured it'd be more intimate, contemplative, quiet. So, I suppose what I am saying is that having it thrust into her out of the blue with no build up and with no personal scene beforehand with just her and her soul, is shockingly upsetting and really quite disheartening no only because the possibilities are now wasted and the scene in which she finally got her soul back which should have been a font and center personal moment for her, was sidelined but too much other stuff going on, it was lost in he mix of lights and noises and talking and super hero stuff.

Anybody wish we got to experience a quiet, personal moment with Sylvanas and her soul?

I was hoping, after decades, we'd see her reflecting or at lest be given a contemplative, emotional scene with just her and her soul (or wherever it was contained.)

It does not feel acceptable to have had her soul thrusted into her with so much activity around her. It was too busy to feel the weight of what such a powerful, long-awaited moment should have been. Inappropriately and heartlessly conceived, no thought given to us or her.

It should have been quieter, thoughtful, an intense moment for her an wc/wow fans. I feel like we and her deserve a special, intimate moment with the reuniting of her with her soul, partly because we've waited so long, but mostly, it just feels right, compassionate, and necessary.

The writer stole that moment from her and us.

I'm not jumping on a bandwagon for or against anyone, but blizzard please, the writer did not consider wc/wow's past, its following, us fans and players, the story's characters, etc. Nothing and no one was considered with this empty scene. Instead of making a memorable and meaningful experience for us, witnessing Sylvanas and her soul in a quiet moment, the writer ruined us and her and a portion of wow. The writer knowingly took something away from us.

They could have had her alone, approach her soul or where it was contained, and shown flashback or sounds from the past, with us left not knowing if she'd choose to merge with it, until later when we see her either still undead or fixed, that would be a cool reveal. Then later/after a while, we could have cut back to the moment we left her to make her decision, and see her interaction and contemplation before a beautiful moment of either choosing to merge or walk away.

Not only did the writer ruin us and her, they threw away potential and opportunities for a poignant and emotional scene with her and her soul. Her making a difficult decision, and quite possibly her remembering what it was like to be the real her before she was turned. She could have remembered quel'thalas, lor'themar, being a ranger, leaves falling while hunting, silvermoon, arthas, her sisters, her deeds since being changed, and so on. Instead, the writer made a stage with flashing lights and noises and a giant throw her soul at her (which somehow also caused a e.m.p. for even more extra noise and flashiness, and nothing about it was personal, intimate, reflective, quiet, important, meaningful or memorable. The writer made a forgettable scene out of what should have been a long awaited, holding our breath, edge of our seats decision making moment, like, would Gollum decide to walk away from the ring or not kind of decision.

Or we could have had her sister on her own quest, leaving her kids and trying one last time to help Sylvanas by finding her soul, that would have been an epic and emotional storyline. Her sister or someone who remembers her for who she was and still has hope, on a secret mission to find and give her sister's soul back to her could have approached a very amazing and memorable scene, and introduced the sister as a new main character with a goal and we can get to know her better. A lot has lead to her moment with her soul, but the writer didn't think of us or her, and that's scary and sad just how evil they are, knowing this was supposed to be a very special moment for us and her, and they took it upon themselves to deny a resonant moment. Not all of us need or want over the top spectacle. You're making nothing matter.

I have always hoped and thought if she were to ever come in contact/the possibility of getting her soul back, it would be a quiet, almost peaceful, reflective moment, like approaching a long hallway and alter where her soul awaits, or nearing a secret chamber her soul is contained in, or leaping into unknowable darkness to try to find her soul.

It deserves an intimacy and a private time, to think of flashbacks, to consider the choice to be merged with soul or to continue on without, etc. Soul returning shouldn't have been done TO her and not with all the flashing lights and noisy environment and additional characters and spectacle, it should have been as if we the player/audience were watching a character come full circle after decades, approaching the one place she can to make her decision, a very quiet, emotional scene, not like this.

If they knew the above is what we and Sylvanas deserve and have been waiting for for decades, and chose to rob us of a respectful, quiet moment, then they're cruel and heartless and inconsiderate to both their characters/world and to us as fans, and we don't have to let them treat us like this.

I would have made Sylvanas's soul moment memorable and meaningful and personal to her as a character and to us fans. Writer betrayed us and sacrificed what could have been one of the best parts of this expansion and in wow, by going all spectacle, no heart.

[Rendark]

Holy crap, the amount of 12-year old downvoting the hard work of NORMAL FOLKS is crazy.

I hate you guys that do this so much. The ones who downvote a video like that, you all made me hate the job. I had to ignore you fuckers and try to find the fun in what I made, because you made me feel so awful for it all the time.

I can't imagine how these people feel now that WoW has even more toxic hate.

Maybe they downvote the video because they don't like what's in the video.

[Omedon]

A few expansions ago (I'm not going to look for it but it's there, maybe in MoP?) devs said they they realized that they wanted to create continuity in the storyline, to give players reason to be interested in the next patch so that it didn't feel like it was coming out of left field. Ever since then, many end of raid videos have been more about setting up the next patch than about giving a satisfying conclusion to the story of the current patch.

If you look, that's a clear thread in many of the raid tiers/expansions. Legion had the Gul'Dan connection, MoP was Garrosh, Legion BFA had the sword, Sylvanas's story extended into Shadowlands etc. But in my opinion, this desire to keep players interested in the NEXT thing means that they've been seriously lacking in payoffs when stories end.

This cinematic suffers from that issue too. Blizz doesn't want you to care about the end of the "Sylvanas as villain" story, they're using this cinematic to set up the next part where the Jailor is the bad guy now. When that patch ends, the Jailor will fall over dead and be an afterthought in the cinematic as they again set up the next thing.

Stories need to have a payoff. We need to see Arthas sitting there dying with his father watching to be invested. I feel like modern storytellers tasked with designing the story for ICC and knowing deathwing was coming, would have found some way to get him involved in the ending Arthas cinematic just to "hype" Cata. GTFO. Finish a story, stop doing this shit!

Cause what I see in this patch is, hey guys, forget about Sylvanas, who cares? Let's go get the Jailor!

Wow, I was going to post a long rant here, but you basically spoke my mind.

Only thing I’d add (not necessarily at you but at this whole topic) is that the “wait and see” idealism is a dead horse when the narrative trickles out at 15 minutes of story every 6-8 months. There’s “instant gratification whining,” and then there’s having no precedented reason to expect a timely payoff. WoW isn’t played in a vacuum: there are standards to storytelling, time is finite, and WoW has competition for that time (and I don’t just mean other video games). They need to do better.

Either they want our emotional investment or they want our patience. When you weigh “horrible genocide vs popular genocidal maniac,” the clock is ticking, and you can’t have both patience and investment. Shit or get off the pot, accept the player exodus that comes with committing on this axis in the corner you painted yourself into, pay the story off properly (you cowards) and move on!

[Palapop]

N'zoth is dead until Blizz decides to bring him back for some reason. We blew him up with the Heart of Azeroth.

I wouldn't agree on that 1.

Yeah, we did "blew him up". But we never saw him reaching 0%/dead.

[Saltysquidoon]

I was originally going to write up a big essay about how ridiculous your simping is and how stupid sylvanas' "sons of martha" moment was when telling people they serve her was one of her favorite phrases in legion and BFA.

We know it was because they were killed by the blade. What I stated we don’t know is why those two so far. There has been no one else revealed to us. So the speculation is to what caused their souls to split the way it did. Was it a fluke? Was it Uther’s conviction to the light? If it was Uther’s conviction, then why Sylvanas? Is it because Arthas did this to them on purpose, to make them struggle in death. See where the speculation comes from now?
How do any of those things remove agency from anyone? If anything, it could be used for further plots and motivations.

But then I read the bolded gem above.
If you can't see how an intentionally inconsistent (by your own admission) plot device that exists solely to oblivate culpability in a character by putting their morals in a blue pokeball for 20 years removes agency there is no point engaging further, you have at this point proven you cannot critically analyse text.

[Wangming]

If you can't see how an intentionally inconsistent (by your own admission) plot device that exists solely to oblivate culpability in a character by putting their morals in a blue pokeball for 20 years removes agency there is no point engaging further, you have at this point proven you cannot critically analyse text.

Sylvanas is one thing, but the cinematic also removed agency from the player as well. Which is one of the things I hate most about it.

- - - Updated - - -

Sylvanas going to the Maw when she jumped off ICC in WotLK proves it was broken back then.

Or maybe she was a total bitch even back then. Regardless of you believing her about Putress (I don't), undead Sylvanas was never a saint. The best she could have mayne hoped for was Revendreth.

[Selastan]

Or maybe she was a total bitch even back then. Regardless of you believing her about Putress (I don't), undead Sylvanas was never a saint. The best she could have mayne hoped for was Revendreth.

The fact that the Val'kyr showed up implies that they brought her to the maw directly, in a similar way to how Uther brought Arthas.

[liqwidram]

I'm waiting for Disney to send Blizz cease and desist letters about copywrite infractions on how much this is just a AU MCU story.. I guess we're in the Endgame now...

[dwarven]

I see what they're doing. This is the beginning to Frozen 3.

[neik]

Really? Do people actually work like this?... Scary.

Forgiving her atrocities you automatically become disarmed, and since you already so compassionate, and blind, why won't you succumb for more garbage we have for you in store. Basic manipulation/marketing tactics.

[Nachturnal]

Just like how you're doing the bidding of big tech corporations by posting your thoughts on this forum?

I was speaking about the context of the cinematic as it has evolved within the story to this point. Can we have a discussion in these forums without immediately being snarky? Some other posters added a bit more context and I understood it as it was explained to me. Your post just reads a little angst-y.

[bowlink]

I'm waiting for Disney to send Blizz cease and desist letters about copywrite infractions on how much this is just a AU MCU story.. I guess we're in the Endgame now...

Blizzard already managed to pull a fast one with the starcraft Zerg, the argued that Zerg is pronounced differently than Zurg (the Buzz Lightyear antagonis). Which it clearly doesn't but ok

[Kumorii]

Forgiving her atrocities you automatically become disarmed, and since you already so compassionate, and blind, why won't you succumb for more garbage we have for you in store. Basic manipulation/marketing tactics.

But that's already the state of the person. If they forgive someone or a character due to reason, that's because of the nature of their personality. What baffled me was the idea that if someone forgive a character in a story, why would they forgive blizzard for whatever they want to forgive them for?

Only way I see this would lead to people forgiving Blizzard, for lets say the story, is if they like the story. That's of course up to them and perfectly valid opinion to have since liking a story is subjective.

What do you think people will forgive Blizzard for if they forgive Sylvanas?

[emilpor]

This is garbage (story-wise).

[Florena]

Blizzard already managed to pull a fast one with the starcraft Zerg, the argued that Zerg is pronounced differently than Zurg (the Buzz Lightyear antagonis). Which it clearly doesn't but ok

THat's kind of a flimsy case to start with, the SC Zerg don't really have anything to do with the toy story character other than having similar names and even then, it's a singular person vs a race of aliens being compared.

[Eapoe]

I was originally going to write up a big essay about how ridiculous your simping is and how stupid sylvanas' "sons of martha" moment was when telling people they serve her was one of her favorite phrases in legion and BFA.

But then I read the bolded gem above.
If you can't see how an intentionally inconsistent (by your own admission) plot device that exists solely to oblivate culpability in a character by putting their morals in a blue pokeball for 20 years removes agency there is no point engaging further, you have at this point proven you cannot critically analyse text.

Maybe because she doesn’t see herself the same as the Lich King or the Jailer. She also said she herself does not “serve.” Can you just not see that characters have flaws.
There are plenty of stories where people become or act like what they hate and don’t see it. Hell, look at what she was going to do with Jaina’s brother, making him a walking, brain washed bomb. To her, they were also ways to set people free of injustices she saw. Whether she is blind or not to the fact she acted the same way can be another topic.
Basically, I think you’re just trying to sound intelligent while completely ignoring things in your face to hate on a company you just like to hate on.

Also, just so I’m clear, are you honestly comparing Bruce and Clark’s sudden friendship out of a made up battle over the fact their mothers share one of the most common names in the world, to Sylvanas’ sudden realization that her partnership in trying to free people from an unjust system is nothing more than the same type of tyrant that she dedicated her entire undeath, and part of life, to destroying?

Also, I want to add one last thing:
https://mythicscribes.com/character-...racter-agency/

Does it seem like the story would have progressed the same way, or that Sylvanas or Arthas, have acted against their own character, or that they didn’t influence the actions and outcomes of certain events?

[pewpmeiser]

This is a well done cinematic, in a very good storyline. I'm very excited to see what is next.

[Bakis]

She also said she herself does not “serve.”

thats what shes been doing for quite some time now and suddenly the last 60s when its already too late she pops out the comment that she does not serve.
Make no sense, just like the lore hasn't for two expansions with Sylvanas.