Sylvanas’ Culpability *spoilers*

[Xilurm]

You know, sometimes revenge is what people need.

What is "justice" going to do? Atleast with revenge you know Sylvanas would be dead and she wouldn't be able to harm anyone.

[BrintoSFJ]

What Sylvanas wanted was immortality for all, not being chained to death, not living in fear of dying, or what happens after death. If Jailer actually kept his words and all those who died from Azeroth truly became immortals, then Sylvanas would be a hero. But now all of that is gone in smokes. She was not even manipulated, she took the risk knowningly.

Considering how Jailed turned her into living again, he would clearly be able to transform people's souls into immortal souls, she was right to take the risk and ally with him. Was it a bad decision to trust him? I am not really sure as Jailer seems like he is traumatized after being chained to a role for an uncountable number of years. So he could have been more sympathetic towards her and the people of Azeroth but his trauma is just too much I guess.

I admit, I originally wanted her to be tortured for eternity in the Maw but after the revelation that Jailer could possibly give the denizens of Azeroth immortality, it is really hard for me to blame Sylvanas for trying to get a better deal for the people of Azeroth. If Jailer kept his words, it would have been completely worth it.

[geco]

What Sylvanas wanted was immortality for all, not being chained to death, not living in fear of dying, or what happens after death. If Jailer actually kept his words and all those who died from Azeroth truly became immortals, then Sylvanas would be a hero. But now all of that is gone in smokes. She was not even manipulated, she took the risk knowningly.

But at some point is this clearly stated?

[Jujudrood]

The problem is, doing everything she did just to get her soul back is not a very good excuse for near genocide (among other things).
Plus, wtf did she expect when she helped capture Anduin, break him so he could be MC'd, then give all the power of the Shadowlands to the Jailer?
She literally broke how the afterlife works and handed immense power (basically, made him Thanos) as if she was somehow immune to it...
You think she can just like, I dunno, return to Azeroth and be like "welp, got my soul so everything's right as rain!"?
Her "feeling bad" for Thrall and co, then firing the arrow and saying she won't serve, is not redemption in any way, it's just sad.

If the next thing is not "tell me everything you know and we'll make your true death' swift", then it's a sad excuse for shitty writing for a shitty character to keep them around longer than their shelf life.

But we all know what's next: she will have some crucial information that will allow us to beat the Jailer, which in turn will be her "redemption" of sorts.
If they allow that to happen, and if they even let her sacrifice herself to stop him, or at the least to free Anduin who then stops him, it will be about the blandest, most nonsensical outcome that could happen, so that's probably what will come to pass.

Bonus shit sprinkles on the shit sundae if Sylvanas was the one who tucked Varian away and she pulls him out of her proverbial pocket to snap Anduin out of the MC so he can do whatever he's gonna end up doing to the Jailer because we all know he won't just be LK 2.0 forever.

[Uzkin]

But the whole point about the forsaken is that, undeath with free will is strictly not corruption, they are the exact same people they were during their life. This whole argument is based on such flawed premises, because being undead doesn't make you evil, or even incline you to be more evil.

Actually, if you speak with the forsaken in-game they will tell you that their condition has numbed their ability to feel emotions such as love, empathy, etc. Losing one's soul certainly tends to suppress the "good" emotions the individual is capable of feeling, this is standard stuff in fantasy/fiction.

Edit. For example, the official description of the Forsaken says: "Now, free of the bonds of servitude as well as the troublesome emotions and connections of their human lives, the Forsaken have found a new home—with the Horde."

[Ivarr]

What Sylvanas wanted was immortality for all, not being chained to death, not living in fear of dying, or what happens after death.

Kinda hypocritical after begging for a quick death herself.

[WaltherLeopold]

Actually, if you speak with the forsaken in-game they will tell you that their condition has numbed their ability to feel emotions such as love, empathy, etc. Losing one's soul certainly tends to suppress the "good" emotions the individual is capable of feeling, this is standard stuff in fantasy/fiction.

Edit. For example, the official description of the Forsaken says: "Now, free of the bonds of servitude as well as the troublesome emotions and connections of their human lives, the Forsaken have found a new home—with the Horde."

What does this have to do with souls? The implication that having a soul = good is a judeochristian concept, not a warcraft one and if true is completely out of the blue in WoW lore. We have multiple of good undead, we have multiple of evil undead, we have multiple good living, we have multiple evil living. The soul is not the arbiter of morality in the warcraft verse.

I'm not saying that OP is wrong in his interpretation (no one knows so far), but it's completely unfounded based on existing lore about undead and souls.

[deenman]

ehm... I think a dead person can't be a danger to society, so the death penalty serves the second purpose perfectly.

sure,if you ignored the rest of what i said

[Dazmalak]

I am sticking with my theory that Sylvanas is going to be Sadvanas in ways we haven't seen since Sadfang.

Looking at things from her perspective, just imagine having your conscience and life ripped away from you while you're made to serve the one who inflicted that misery upon you. It's very easy to say "kill her, she's evil" but in all truth Sylvanas (and all Forsaken according to their early lore) were lacking what was effectively a conscience. Yes, they were evil, but it wasn't so much a choice as it was a condition afflicted upon them.

Now, after all the terrible things you do because you don't have that nagging conscience saying "no, that's wrong, don't do it" you suddenly have it restored and are left with the knowledge of what you've done. What would any of you do if you woke up tomorrow and realized you murdered a bunch of people? It doesn't excuse her actions, just pointing out that she is going to basically wake up and hate herself for what she's done.

I see her character arc being a callback to Grom Hellscream in WCIII. Do a no no, comes to senses, regret, sacrifice. Atonement? Honestly they'll leave it to the judgment of the player probably. NPCs will be like "well now that that's over, we should go forget this ever happened and act surprised when some other cosmic force attacks us". The player will say "yeah it redeemed her, I hope she found peace" or "she should burn in hell, but at least she's gone now".

It's fairly entertaining watching all the hate in this thread regardless. Brings a smile to my face to see so many unhappy people on all sides.

[Rexosaurus]

Now, after all the terrible things you do because you don't have that nagging conscience saying "no, that's wrong, don't do it" you suddenly have it restored and are left with the knowledge of what you've done. What would any of you do if you woke up tomorrow and realized you murdered a bunch of people? It doesn't excuse her actions, just pointing out that she is going to basically wake up and hate herself for what she's done.

I think most people realize the implications of her getting her soul restored, it's just that it's really stupid to a lot of us. The whole "Oh no, what have I done?" shtick was already in place for the Forsaken thanks to their time as members of the Scourge. Figuring out where their place in the world was after breaking free was part of what made them compelling as a faction in the first place.

So the idea that Sylvanas and the Forsaken have actually been "incomplete" this whole time, and that they can't really be blamed for their actions, is both a giant cop out and also a near repeat of their OG backstory.

[Dazmalak]

I think most people realize the implications of her getting her soul restored, it's just that it's really stupid to a lot of us. The whole "Oh no, what have I done?" shtick was already in place for the Forsaken thanks to their time as members of the Scourge. Figuring out where their place in the world was after breaking free was part of what made them compelling as a faction in the first place.

So the idea that Sylvanas and the Forsaken have actually been "incomplete" this whole time, and that they can't really be blamed for their actions, is both a giant cop out and also a near repeat of their OG backstory.

Oh I totally agree that it's a giant cop out and a sham. I don't agree that players get Sylvanas' motives or the story trying to be ineptly told. They just want her dead and gone for good or ill no matter what. It's a shame really. Frozen Throne Sylvanas was one of my favorites. WoW ruined her like every other character though.

[Soon-TM]

The best part about Sylv's culpability is that 1) it is a completely abstract discussion, since there is no way that there will be a War Crimes 2.0 for her... Unless writers want to go full cheek-in-tongue mode with the Garrosh 2.0 meme, I guess. And more importantly 2) they've written Sylv in a way that conforms neither her detractors (since she's being effectively redeemed) nor her supporters, since she's being depicted as a colossal moron who had very little, if any, agency of her own.

Maybe that's what MoRaLLy gReY meant, after all

[deenman]

The largest reason for prison is deterrence. Discourage people from committing crimes in the first place.

That said, yeah... imagine someone gave you bath salts without you knowing and you wake up and discover that you ate a bunch of faces. How culpable are you really?

education and a healthy societal and economical enviroment is deterrence,not prison

prison actualy works counter to the concept of deterrence,its why in countries with light sentences crime is also lower,meanwile in usa or places with life and death penalty you see the worse crimes happen,a guy who robs you will now also kill you to try and avoid prison

[Super Dickmann]

I am sticking with my theory that Sylvanas is going to be Sadvanas in ways we haven't seen since Sadfang.

Absolutely cursed sentence, but also true. The saving grace is that SL has a smaller budget and is also definitely getting cut short which means we won't be getting four to five of the things in HD where Sylvanas cries at the NPC of the hour over what she's done.

Its problem isn't as a character beat in the microcosm of what they've made. The basic human psychology of Sylvanas committing every crime under the sun for years and ruining every relationship she's had from the personal ones to that with her people only for it to have always been for nothing would drive anyone into depression. I wouldn't call it a good story, but conceptually it's fine, especially if you add removing the filter of undeath so she now has empathy to contend with on top of it. I don't think the soul splitting nonsense was a necessary addition at all - having it be a unique thing only for Uther because he asked the Light to save him was cool and the reduced positive emotions of undeath were previously explained by way of the misalignment of souls. Having the Jailer align her soul using his cosmic powers would achieve the same.

The problem is as a piece of continuing storytelling. In terms of the former, this beat, like everything regarding Sylvanas in Shadowlands could conceivably work if BFA hadn't characterized her as a comical psychopath killing scores of people not out of any political goals, a vendetta or even for the greater good but purely out of spite to increase her own power. The Anduin scene covers the same ground as the Delaryn scene, albeit it's much better, but as the Delaryn scene has still happened everything regarding her repeating the experience she had with Arthas and just how feeble her explanation is when she's actually confronted about it doesn't work. BFA has fucked any kind of pathos for her for big parts of the playerbase and also turned her characterization into mush. You can bridge Shadowlands Sylvanas with pre-BFA Sylvanas if you squint and accept the Blue Man retcon and focus on the personality beats, you can't square any of her moral grievances with someone who spent two years of game time eating puppies for the explicit stated purpose of making everyone serve Death, i.e herself. Afrasiabi fucked it and Danuser, even if he were a leagues better writer than the mediocrity he actually is, can't pick up the tab because no one could gel these two radically different plot directions.

The marketing element is the other part. Sylvanas, like everything in WoW, is a product. There's a demographic that liked her incarnation up to Legion and also disliked her opposition more than her in BFA, I would know, I'm one of them. There's also a demographic that got on board for the BFA build up of her as a villain and would not be satisfied with any outcome but to kick her ass. The present story gives neither any resolution. It effectively eliminates Sylvanas as a character - I'm sure there's some part of that fanbase that wants to see how Sylvanas copes with the aforementioned 'ruining everything for herself and everyone else for nothing' route or what herself as a Ranger-General would think of her as the Banshee Queen. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't at least morbidly curious. But as Sadfang's cinematic series showed, WoW isn't the vessel for that kind of storytelling and such a route doesn't please either of the bigger demographics - she's no longer the biggest bad out there she was in BFA, and all her detractors never actually got to fight her, kick her ass and have the investment the game itself put into building her up as the Devil incarnate paid off. As for those who liked her pre-BFA incarnation - they're shit out of luck too. Present Sylvanas is an explicit rebuffing of that same character and essentially seals the fate of a chance to ever have such a character as a player ally again. Oh, and she still has us stuck with Calia.

[LordVargK]

sure,if you ignored the rest of what i said

The rest of what you said doesn't counter the fact, that a dead person can no longer be a threat to society.
And yes, the death sentence is a babaric punishment. Azeroth is a babaric world. I mean, I don't know if you noticed, but killing is the preferred method of solving conflicts on Azeroth. My main character alone has killed 158474 humanoids. There is no doubt about Sylvanas' guilt. And on Azeroth death sentences are spoken for much lesser crimes than hers. Like stealing. Or standing around menacingly...

[BrintoSFJ]

But at some point is this clearly stated?

I deduced after watching the story unfold up to this point. This makes sense to me, after what Jailer did at the end of the cinematic, I am willing to believe that Jailer offered immortality or at least an escape from death to Sylvanas. So basically, even thoug so many died, if Jailer kept his words, it would not matter at all as they would be reborn in a new state of immortality or something along the line.

- - - Updated - - -

Kinda hypocritical after begging for a quick death herself.

People change man. I am not defending the genocide she committed, I am just saying that she could have thought along the line that all of those who died would be reborn in at least an enhanced state and all would be well in the end.

[Ivarr]

The largest reason for prison is deterrence. Discourage people from committing crimes in the first place.

That said, yeah... imagine someone gave you bath salts without you knowing and you wake up and discover that you ate a bunch of faces. How culpable are you really?

That's a weird point in a game where you're constantly asked to kill swathes of corrupted/haunted/tortured npc's though. Why would Sylvanas be an exception to all the mobs we slaughtered?

[Nerovar]

The present story gives neither any resolution.

True. Even if Sylvanas dies now (which many originally wanted to see) it will satisfy absolutely no one since they've simply turned her into a different character. The moment we saw that tortured look on her face in that cursed cinematic, the character of the Banshee Queen was effectively gone forever and killing another character can't really be a resolution to the original character's arc.

That's why she's already "redeemed".

[Ivarr]

Its problem isn't as a character beat in the microcosm of what they've made. The basic human psychology of Sylvanas committing every crime under the sun for years and ruining every relationship she's had from the personal ones to that with her people only for it to have always been for nothing would drive anyone into depression.

Just Blizzard's way of conveying how 'strong' she is. Look at all the people she fucked, everyone hates her, but she keeps pushing through regardless.

- - - Updated - - -

True. Even if Sylvanas dies now (which many originally wanted to see) it will satisfy absolutely no one since they've simply turned her into a different character. The moment we saw that tortured look on her face in that cursed cinematic, the character of the Banshee Queen was effectively gone forever and killing another character can't really be a resolution to the original character's arc.

"My pain is constant and sharp, and I do not hope for a better world for anyone. In fact, I want my pain to be inflicted on others. I want no one to escape. But even after admitting this, there is no catharsis; my punishment continues to elude me, and I gain no deeper knowledge of myself."

- - - Updated - - -

People change man. I am not defending the genocide she committed, I am just saying that she could have thought along the line that all of those who died would be reborn in at least an enhanced state and all would be well in the end.

She could at least try and find out herself if that were true. Aside from that it's utterly narcissistic to make that choice on behalf of everyone; even if this was a positive thing, it would still be a gambling with everyone's fate.

It's like that Naaru trying to light-rape Illidan except he was just a single individual.

[Nerovar]

"My pain is constant and sharp, and I do not hope for a better world for anyone. In fact, I want my pain to be inflicted on others. I want no one to escape. But even after admitting this, there is no catharsis; my punishment continues to elude me, and I gain no deeper knowledge of myself."

Pretty much. The only reason why you could possibly get some sort of satisfaction from Sylvanas getting killed off now is because you either have an unhealthy obsession with her or because you want to spite Blizzard. Either way you're not going to get what you want.