New Garrosh cinematic

[TrueHorde]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMXtMj59Tr4 https://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=237521

https://www.bilibili.com/video/av8515389/

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Killing civilians is a demoralization tactic.

Also what innocent civilians are making their homes in a military base? If someone is a chef, they are feeding troops, therefore a military target.

Teldrassila wasn’t a military base at the time of attack there were no troops to feed no supply’s being providing to other outpost nothing but civilians that was the whole point of targeting it so they could hold said civilians hostage without having to fight the military. If it counts as a military target then literally every thing does.

And sure it can be a demoralization tactic but as saurfang points out it wasn’t one as the whole of the alliance got more moral to come after the horde.

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didn't happen; no confirmation it was a non-combatant in the book/novel, could've been a scarlet crusader or an alliance soldier

In the novel they also test it on forsaken and sylvanas her self says/thinks she doesn’t know if the forsaken had done any thing before hand but she doesn’t know and doesn’t care they would have tested it any way.

They then find a vykrl town and test it on them when as far as we know they did nothing but sit in there little creator.

[Ielenia]

So, again, what you brought that up in the part where i say reasons people dislike him? youa re jsut confirming attempt red hearing.

It's not a red herring. I simply gave a reason people could have for disliking him, like I do. But you simply dismissed everyone's opinions that don't agree with yours with a blanket statement.

He already did,

Nothing. He did absolutely nothing.

And why it would be unclear?

Maybe because Garrosh did nothing at all regarding Magatha even after finding out he got used like a pawn in her schemes?

And still is right, because it is only at the end of mop that majorly of the horde ent against him?

No, it's downright, demostrably wrong, because the blood elves leaving, for example? It did not happen "at the end of MoP". Garrosh has been alienating the non-orc races throughout the entirety of MoP. Must I remind you, also, that one of Garrosh's first commands as a warchief was to confine the trolls in Orgrimmar to the slums?

you are rly trying to spin things aren't you?

Says the "human tornado".

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Many view Garrosh in the same way he views the Old Horde and his own versions of the Horde (True and Iron): in an idealized and glorified fashion that completely omit the flaws and faults of the organisation/character.

[Syegfryed]

Taken to its logical end, that would mean a person cannot have an opinion about anything he hasn't personally been part of or experienced. That's nonsense. I've never had a big cup of gasoline, but I know I would not like it.

Again, nowhere said someone cannot have an opinion about it. Im saying that opinion will shallow/invalid or unimportant/biased to what is being talking about, because that person have zero to little context/clues

Drinking something harmful does not equal as you not knowing the context social, religious and political to a outside county but still wanting to determine what is better for then

Is like me saying Anduin should now lead the night elves and strip Tyrande power, because Anduin want peace.

In your opinion, because Blizzard has made no such statement.

The devil is in the details

He is very poorly presented and suffers the most from cut content, but his stance is "We shouldn't go to war just to go to war. We shouldn't throw away lives pointlessly." Also, I fondly recall Horde players rhapsodizing how Hippy Jaina was the best written character in Warcraft when she was all for appeasing the Horde and forgetting their atrocities. Goodness, I'm starting to think the Horde fans expect a one way street! If so, that's incredibly selfish.

Baine is a flawed character from the start, his first attempt as leadership was to ask the enemy for help, it does not matter that his "goal" is noble, because he committed worst things than thrall in his search for utopia, a leader should first and foremost think about his people, not about the enemy and if they will dislike ywhat you did or condem as "not peace"

I seriously don't know where you are going talking about Jaina like that

That's how you (and others) present the situation. You have NEVER presented any middle ground between peace and genocide. That's not your stance? Then it's on you to make yourself clear.

Youa re the one saying that, i like when both factions are waging war against each other, thats why cataclysm was the best expansion on that department, Garrosh x Varian while they had their own valid motivations.

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It's not a red herring. I simply gave a reason people could have for disliking him

And again, we know that is not true, since no one ever bring that up when they say then dislike Garrosh. "i dislike him because he killsteal in the last raid", like come on, you jsut made that shit up that nbody cares, try a little harder.

Maybe because Garrosh did nothing at all regarding Magatha even after finding out he got used like a pawn in her schemes

?

He did, he condem her actions and say her to fuck off., didn't give her a single support.

No, it's downright, demostrably wrong, because the blood elves leaving, for example?

Blood elves are not majorty of the horde. So anyway you try to spin this you are wrong

Again, i never denied that some of the horde were against him, most the leaders, but saying "majorty of the horde was already against him" is being flat out wrong as he had the back up of the population, just like when he bomb theramore and taurens, trolls and orcs alike cheered. "majority" only went against him by the end of mop when he put the trolls in martial law and the events of SoO start.

Says the "human tornado".

Human tornado x Captain Falalcy

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Many view Garrosh in the same way he views the Old Horde and his own versions of the Horde (True and Iron): in an idealized and glorified fashion that completely omit the flaws and faults of the organisation/character.

Nah, we embrace the flaws, different from another faction, the time were mistakes were made and could be made, when nothing was perfect and clean, and not rly "true or iron" horde, but Garry horde in cataclysm was more close to Wc3 horde, that had no fear to attack back.

Which is again the point of warcraft, the factions fighting each other and a outside treat, not looking for peace, perfection and forgiveness, it was more believable, more engaging.

One of the reasons i wan t to Turalyon to flip the fuck out and make this wc2 all over again.

[omeomorfismo]

humm.. no? maybe it was in easter kingomds(with kork'rkon help) but in kalindor it had nothing of fosaken, Goblin tech help then more.


no rly, it was a over generalization when people said "every single of his war strategies failed", when he succeed more than failed, if it was not by alliance plot armor in ashenvale by example he would had succeed



His objective was to took over guilmeas as a base/port of operations, and he didn't succeed because Sylvanas blew it, by not doing what he said and by bomping the city with blight.

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alliance opinion on horde leadership does not matter, just like the other way around.

talking about elves, is compltely different, as there is elves in both factions you can be salty all you want.

mmm yes? half of the wars were in the eastern kingdoms (and the only kor'kron function was what? undercity political police and then cromush as overseer, the boat of drunked orcs isnt even commentable). but i mean, probably thats another not so clear hyperbole...

wut? he was sending forsaken cavalry against the walls protected by gilneas sniper, in a stalemate resulting only in piles of forsaken corpses
and if the black dragons could inhabit gilneas after sylvanas won in the same expansion, probably garrosh just didnt cared about the land...

He is very poorly presented and suffers the most from cut content, but his stance is "We shouldn't go to war just to go to war. We shouldn't throw away lives pointlessly." Also, I fondly recall Horde players rhapsodizing how Hippy Jaina was the best written character in Warcraft when she was all for appeasing the Horde and forgetting their atrocities. Goodness, I'm starting to think the Horde fans expect a one way street! If so, that's incredibly selfish.

lol, like who? i mean, even finding an horde player that find her bearable is an achievenment itself

[Ielenia]

And again, we know that is not true, since no one ever bring that up when they say then dislike Garrosh.

But it is true. One: I never claimed that is a reason everyone or most everyone dislike him. I simply mentioned that as one more bad thing to add to the bad things Garrosh did.

?

He did, he condem her actions and say her to fuck off., didn't give her a single support.

And yet he had no problem sending his lapdogs to threaten, intimidate and/or outright kill those who he did not like... yet all Magatha got was "I don't like you anymore, I'm unfriending you!"

Blood elves are not majorty of the horde. So anyway you try to spin this you are wrong

Who said anything about the blood elves being "the majority of the Horde"? I think you're quickly losing track of your own arguments here. The elves were ONE example. For someone who says "the devil is in the details" you sure don't care for details when they don't suit you, do you?

Human tornado x Captain Falalcy

Oh, those are your two aliases? Good to know.

[Syegfryed]

mmm yes? half of the wars were in the eastern kingdoms

And there is only war in the easter kingdoms? and not you know, in the continent most of horde lives?

wut? he was sending forsaken cavalry against the walls protected by gilneas sniper, in a stalemate resulting only in piles of forsaken corpses

Resulting in victory in the end too. forsakens can endure more than the living

and if the black dragons could inhabit gilneas after sylvanas won in the same expansion, probably garrosh just didnt cared about the land...

Now they can, before they could not, and thats why he had to get another place

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But it is true. One: I never claimed that is a reason everyone or most everyone dislike him. I simply mentioned that as one more bad thing to add to the bad things Garrosh did.

As one of the reasons people dislike him

if you did claim that you are just further proving an attempt of red hearing by throwing out something completely irrelevant to the discussion in an attempt of derail it

And yet he had no problem sending his lapdogs to threaten, intimidate and/or outright kill those who he did not like... yet all Magatha got was "I don't like you anymore, I'm unfriending you!"

Yeah, at least Magahta was not actively trying to undermine his rule neither said with all words that she was going to kill him.

Who said anything about the blood elves being "the majority of the Horde"? I think you're quickly losing track of your own arguments here.

You said, and i said

You said "majority of the horde was against him"

And i said, not until by the end of mop

You said that is not true and keep giving false examples, just like the blood elves.

Now you are saying you didn't, clearly backpedaling and changing goalposts, like always.

Oh, those are your two aliases? Good to know.

As expect from the Captain fallacy, using one to hide his identity.

[omeomorfismo]

And there is only war in the easter kingdoms? and not you know, in the continent most of horde lives?

lol, thats why i wrote "half of horde success was thanks forsaken warfare improvment" instead of going super hyperbolic like you

Resulting in victory in the end too. forsakens can endure more than the living

victory? what victory? sylvanas came when he was stuck.
would be his genocide succesfull? we cant know, still he didnt win anything with his strategy (until you know, his objective was genociding the forsaken)

Now they can, before they could not, and thats why he had to get another place

wut? the land was livable, otherwise the black dragons who could mindcontrol?

[Syegfryed]

lol, thats why i wrote "half of horde success was thanks forsaken warfare improvment" instead of going super hyperbolic like you

So... can you quantify it was 50%? since you are not going hyperbolic, can you quantify the success of horde s a whole being 50% due to forsaken? and not also blood elf in EK and orcish/goblin support there as well?

victory? what victory? sylvanas came when he was stuck.

it would result in his victory, it came out wrong that part.

would be his genocide succesfull? we cant know, still he didnt win anything with his strategy (until you know, his objective was genociding the forsaken)

His strategies usually work, when there is not some outside fuckery like in ashenvale

And, can you proof that his objective was to genocide the forsaken? cause we only have sylvanus point of view and hypothesis, genocide an useful subject and bastion of the horde forces in easter kingdoms goes against Garrosh ideals of warfare.

wut? the land was livable, otherwise the black dragons who could mindcontrol?

By the time of cataclysm the place was not viable and made Garrosh find another place to use as port, as he used the dragonmaw port, by the time it was viable again was not necessary.

And as far i remember the place later became again alliance territory.

[Ielenia]

As one of the reasons people dislike him

And it's +1 reason for me to dislike him, so it is one reason people dislike him, because I'm part of those who dislike Garrosh, so it's a valid reason.

Yeah, at least Magahta was not actively trying to undermine his rule neither said with all words that she was going to kill him.

Surprise, surprise, I am not talking about Vol'jin. Garrosh has threatened, intimidated and killed others in the Horde too, you know?

You said,

I have never said that. And, as always, you falsely accuse of saying something, and refusing to show off me actually saying that.

and i said

You said "majority of the horde was against him"

And i said, not until by the end of mop

You said that is not true and keep giving false examples, just like the blood elves.

Are you claiming Lor'themar did not plan to leave the Horde and join the Alliance mid-MoP? If so, are you truly in the position to berate others for "not knowing the lore"?

Now you are saying you didn't, clearly backpedaling and changing goalposts, like always.

Funny how every single time you accuse me of "backpedaling" or "moving goalposts", you always fail to prove your case, refusing to provide quotes.

As expect from the Captain fallacy, using one to hide his identity.

"Captain fallacy"? You're talking about yourself in third person, now?

[omeomorfismo]

So... can you quantify it was 50%? since you are not going hyperbolic, can you quantify the success of horde s a whole being 50% due to forsaken? and not also blood elf in EK and orcish/goblin support there as well?

what are the wars during horde resurgence?
ashenvale(and aszhara?)
barrens
gilneas(and hillsbrad)
andhoral
then there are minor things like stonelaton and arathi highlands
half of these are forsaken wars
i miss anything?

it would result in his victory, it came out wrong that part.

it would? we cant know. until you know, the valkyr visions were absolutely trye, but that imply that garrosh wanted to genocide the forsaken xD.

His strategies usually work, when there is not some outside fuckery like in ashenvale

sure, thats why i think that all the hints in edge of night about garrosh wantig the forsaken to die are coherent with the character. he never was portrayed as a stupid strategist, still the stalemate under the gilneas walls was super dumb and easily solved by sylvanas even without using the plague (until you know, the alliance popped up randomly to attack the horde during gilneas invasion)

And, can you proof that his objective was to genocide the forsaken? cause we only have sylvanus point of view and hypothesis, genocide an useful subject and bastion of the horde forces in easter kingdoms goes against Garrosh ideals of warfare.

^above.
anyway, the hints in the novel are clears. only you really think that when a suprematist orc sending undead (that he hate with all his passion) soldiers dumbely against a well protected war instead of using boats to circumnavigate, he do it for a master strategy.
i mean, i dont even know why you are against that, im not even saying that garrosh was wrong from his point of view

By the time of cataclysm the place was not viable and made Garrosh find another place to use as port, as he used the dragonmaw port, by the time it was viable again was not necessary.

And as far i remember the place later became again alliance territory.

leg dagger questline is during cataclysm, so the place was absolutely livable during the expansion. i mean, when we reach that part of the questline the place was enough good to let diseased men to defend the black dragon from a alot of ravenholdt spies. a bit difficult to do if the place was a wasteland...

btw not even in a single dialogue during twilight highland questline is hinted that the dragonmaw clan was needed for a new port.
we go there just to fight the twilight hammer (and the alliance). they are just an happy collateral gain

[For_The_Horde]

He literally rage-quit on WoW, probably to go play FFXIV.

[Syegfryed]

what are the wars during horde resurgence?
ashenvale(and aszhara?)
barrens
gilneas(and hillsbrad)
andhoral
then there are minor things like stonelaton and arathi highlands
half of these are forsaken wars
i miss anything?

Tol barad, Durotar, pretty sure there was something in thousand neddles and tanaris.

the only thing forsaken were heavily featured and head the front was guilneas, hillsbrad, andhoral, yet, you are telling me from all the war in cataclysm, 50% was those 3, and 50% of everything was forsaken? come on.

^above.
anyway, the hints in the novel are clears

The hints are not clear, it is made from Sylvanas point of view. destroying a bastion of horde force in EK is not something he would do, he would use then as tools yes, but not throw away "just because he don't like then"

leg dagger questline is during cataclysm, so the place was absolutely livable during the expansion. i mean, when we reach that part of the questline the place was enough good to let diseased men to defend the black dragon from a alot of ravenholdt spies. a bit difficult to do if the place was a wasteland...

It make no sense to be viable, he wanted to make a port the blight made it not possible, that or simple the forsaken were not able to hold the place, because why he would leave there if it was a perfect militar position?

btw not even in a single dialogue during twilight highland questline is hinted that the dragonmaw clan was needed for a new port.

It was not needed for that, but the horde still needed one there, so when the oporunity arose they use it.

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And it's +1 reason for me to dislike him, so it is one reason people dislike him, because I'm part of those who dislike Garrosh, so it's a valid reason.

come on, not even you believe in that rofl

Surprise, surprise, I am not talking about Vol'jin. Garrosh has threatened, intimidated and killed others in the Horde too, you know?

Yes, and MAghata didn't do that

I have never said that.

You said it and you are backpedaling seeing how make no sense

Are you claiming Lor'themar did not plan to leave the Horde and join the Alliance mid-MoP? If so, are you truly in the position to berate others for "not knowing the lore"?

As always, making up a strawman to attack, you never change

nobody said Lorthemar was not planning to leave, you are making that up, im saying he planning to leave does not equal "majority of the horde going against Garrosh" which was your main argument that you are now backpedaling.

[Soon-TM]

Many view Garrosh in the same way he views the Old Horde and his own versions of the Horde (True and Iron): in an idealized and glorified fashion that completely omit the flaws and faults of the organisation/character.

The thing is that even with all those flaws, that kind of character is much more relatable than those perfect, flawless, can-do-no-wrong types that the writing team is so fond of. And not only them, several fans ITT as well.

[justandulas]

The thing is that even with all those flaws, that kind of character is much more relatable than those perfect, flawless, can-do-no-wrong types that the writing team is so fond of. And not only them, several fans ITT as well.

100%. Flawed characters, or even outright villains, can be easy to get behind when they are well written. I don't mind playing a bad guy in the game, or being on the villainous faction because i signed up for that.

a flawed, imperfect horde with violence and bloodlust is a LOT more interesting than twitter presents WoW characters, which is what we have now. And they are boring AF. Who really cares about thrall, jaina, or bolvar unironically? Thrall neutered the horde, Jaina should have died years ago, and Bolvar... well, the fact he even escaped the SL cinematic alive proves that blizzard writers don't get it. This is supposed to be WARcraft still, right?

[Ielenia]

come on, not even you believe in that rofl

If you're going to not believe my words when I tell you what I believe or don't believe, there isn't much honest conversation to be had with you, now is there?

Yes, and MAghata didn't do that

And again you're losing track of your own arguments. I never said "Magatha did that". We're discussing what Garrosh did (or did not do) regarding being tricked by Magatha.

You said it and you are backpedaling seeing how make no sense

And yet, despite your claims, you still fail to provide even a single quote of me saying that. Come on, dude. The thread is right here. If you truly believe I did, my post is still in there, somewhere.

Unless I haven't actually said that and you're just making stuff up.

nobody said Lorthemar was not planning to leave, you are making that up, im saying he planning to leave does not equal "majority of the horde going against Garrosh" which was your main argument that you are now backpedaling.

And this is an actual example of "strawman" because I never said that the blood elves wanting to leave the Horde somehow equals "majority of the Horde going against Garrosh". It was just one example!

Dude, your argument here is akin to me saying "it takes an hour to pressure-wash the fence here at home" and showing you a video of me doing it for two minutes, and then you say "stop lying, it didn't take you an hour! It only took you two minutes!"

[Syegfryed]

If you're going to not believe my words when I tell you what I believe or don't believe, there isn't much honest conversation to be had with you, now is there?

you just mad eup that excuse, again, not even you believe that, is like saying you don't like him because he is bald, like come on.

And again you're losing track of your own arguments. I never said "Magatha did that". We're discussing what Garrosh did (or did not do) regarding being tricked by Magatha.

Yes, you want him to do with maghata, what he did with the others, exceot, maghata, unlike the others, didn't try to undermine and/or sai dit was going to kill him.

The grudge against maghata was minor compared to quarry who literally said he was going to kill him

And yet, despite your claims, you still fail to provide even a single quote of me saying that. Come on, dude. The thread is right here. If you truly believe I did, my post is still in there, somewhere.

This si you talking about what he did when i talk about the cataclysm expansion:

By grinding the Horde to the bone, to the point that the overwhelming majority of the Horde turned against him.

so, i said, no, in cataclysm that didn't happened, the majority of the horde only turned against him by the end of MOP, and this si your weak attempt of rebutal:

Highly ironic. Here's some things that did not happen "by the end of MoP":
• The forsaken being used as cannon fodder in the siege of Gilneas;
• The blood elves being grinded so much that Lor'themar considers leaving the Horde and joining the Alliance a viable option.
• Garrosh ordering the assassination of Vol'jin.

This is you saying those things equal the "overwhelming majority of the horde turned against him", prior MOP

Then the gold thinking you are refuting me:

For someone who mentioned MoP so many times, you seem to have missed the fact that the tauren, the blood elves, the forsaken, and the tauren all rebelled against Garrosh in MoP. 4 out of 6? I would say "overwhelming majority" applies.

when this happened by the end of mop, which is what i said.


So yeah, you said it, then realized it was bs, and now youa re backpedaling trying to distort things, just like the first argumment,

[Ielenia]

you just mad eup that excuse, again, not even you believe that,

Right. So now you somehow know more about what I believe and don't believe than I do. Pretty arrogant from your part. But it's par for the course, I'm afraid, so no surprise here.

is like saying you don't like him because he is bald, like come on.

You're comparing a physical quality to personality and behavior. You really are trying to grasp at straws, aren't you?

Yes, you want him to do with maghata, what he did with the others,

No. I don't. I never said that. I just said that Garrosh, a ruthless dictator that does not take shit from anyone, for some reason "took the shit" from Magatha and did not lift a single finger against her.

This si you talking about what he did when i talk about the cataclysm expansion:

No. No, I didn't say it happened "in the Cataclysm expansion" I said that is a consequence of Garrosh's reckless strategies.

This is you saying those things equal the "overwhelming majority of the horde turned against him", prior MOP

Except no. I did not say "those things equal the overwhelming majority of the Horde turning against him" or even "prior to MoP". It's written right there in your quote:
• I wrote "some things", and not "everything".
• I also wrote "by the end of MoP", like you claimed everything happened "at the end of MoP", because the blood elves trying to leave happened in the middle of MoP.

when this happened by the end of mop, which is what i said.

Four out of six Horde factions turning against Garrosh is somehow does not qualify for "overwhelming majority"?

So yeah, you said it,

I haven't. This is just you lacking reading comprehension, or letting your bias cloud your vision. Wouldn't be the first time.

And since you already proved that you are arrogant enough to think you can dictate what I believe better than I can, this is my last response to your dishonesty. Feel free to have the last word.

[Syegfryed]

No. No, I didn't say it happened "in the Cataclysm expansion" I said that is a consequence of Garrosh's reckless strategies.

we are talking about cataclysm, and you put something that happened by the end of mop, in an attempt of winning an argument by red hearing, like you always do.

Four out of six Horde factions turning against Garrosh is somehow does not qualify for "overwhelming majority"?

Yes, by the end of mop, something that i said and you try to argue against by start saying things that happened before mop, who have nothing to do with we were talking about

I haven't. This is just you lacking reading comprehension, or letting your bias cloud your vision. Wouldn't be the first time.

ah yes, just say nonsenses, not related to what is being talked about so you can say "i was not doing that, its your reading comprehension", then talk about "arrogant"

The joke just keep giving it, by the way, the proof is there, with your own comments, anyone can see that the only thing you are doing here is arguing for the sake of arguing, maybe trying to bait some infractions, but im not going to bite that.