Sanctum of Domination Ending cinematic

[DeltrusDisc]

How Blizzard can make sure people that left stay unsubbed: 101.

[Super Dickmann]

Honestly the Jailer does something for purely practical reason is fairly welcome, alongside all the grandiose cliché villainy he gets up to. On that subject, since he talked about Azeroth's World Soul that one time, I wouldn't even be surprised if ended up using the sword of Sargeras somehow (maybe just shrunk), just so these writers can make it clear that he's the big meanie baddie now.

You know, this is another thing that makes an impression on me. There's this part in this week's main storyline where after the Primus busts free he makes a clone of himself to dispense legendaries and warn you about obvious things in Torghast. When he does so, he gives this fairly generic line about how his broken state is what the Jailer intends for all of creation. Then in the end cinematic you see the Blue Man's first act as this godhead is to turn the Bland Gang into expressionless drones. Anduin himself is basically a meatpuppet and his only lines are those of the Jailer. The one moment of the cinematic regarding Sylvanas that worked is when it pans to her looking over all of them and her two braincells begin to rub together at the sight.

The guy's reaction to Sylvanas's betrayal is just nothing - he doesn't really care one way or another and his new design, while I think it's a bit generic, really helps because he has no face, which makes him even more inhuman. It made me realize that WoW hasn't actually done that kind of villain before - nearly every baddie either wants to stop a bigger foe (Sargeras with the Void Lords, N'zoth with the Jailer, post-Chronicle retcon Arthas with the Legion), has a personal connection to the heroes (N'zoth again, Arthas) or is deeply emotionally invested towards some chaotic end like Deathwing or to an extent Sha-Garrosh. A robot-like threat who has no positive goals in mind and who's intended future consists entirely of empty deadeyed husks and who also doesn't much care about the heroes would've been something fairly new and not all that hard to write for Blizzard. Everything in the Maw screams in the same direction - Torghast is the torture of souls turned into an industrial grind. All the Mawsworn are interchangable faceless suits. They were this close to doing the closest WoW has had to a spite-powered Skynet and I would actually be on board for it as it's a new form of antagonism for the game.

But like any other reading of the character it falls apart because of his other behaviour, like threatening the PC in the Maw, gloating to his family or especially how he's supposedly this manipulator. The Nathrezim are completely at odds with that vibe, but do fit ideally with Denathrius. How damn talkative his minions are is also a total failure. Why are these fuckers taunting me or telling me how the Jailer would reward them? This stock dialogue is in this case worse than nothing because all of them being mute would fit with their stupidly bleak backstory much better. What we know of the process is that these are souls tortured out of any identity and developing Stockholm Syndrome over an uncountable amount of time. To not have them speak with each other, not threaten the player, not allude to any reward to be received or really show any identity at all would both be cheaper and much more intimidating.

As for why Anduin has the only Mourneblade... beats me. Same reason why Nathrezim almost never used them I suppose, they may be very hard to make so you craft them with a specific purpose in mind.

Connected with the above, it's mostly just suggested but I can buy that the reason that his henchmen can't use runeblades is because they've already suffered ego death. Anduin was chosen because he wouldn't break and had very strong convictions, whereas all other candidates failed.

Also the Blue Man hijacking the sword, either so he can turn it into a planet-sized runeblade and suck out Azeroth's soul through it or if he shrinks it would be so fucking cheesy I'd be entirely on board for it.

Discounting the baggage left over from BfA, the two biggest issues is that 1. Sylvanas comes across like an absolute moron for trusting the Jailer, and 2. Anduin doesnt really have anything in terms of prior interractions with Sylvanas that would make me believe she changed her mind because of him.
I find it difficult to figure out how they could untangle themselves from the second problem, but at least the first one could be somewhat alleviated if they play up the angle of Sylvanas not thinking rationally for whatever reason.

This is entirely true. I don't think there's any way to make Sylvanas not be a moron for trusting the Jailer in Shadowlands because by default the only interactions between the two we'd see after the retcon of their connection is in a situation where he is hiding nothing motivation-wise and is also in a far superior position. That said, I do think the Anduin stuff would've worked a bit better if it was focused on herr working through her feelings as she realizes how massively she's fucked up through him rather than him being the one to incite it. A Sylvanas who does all this to usher in a new reality where she's better off (and so's everyone else, if she can be arsed) only to realize that the man who saved her from hell is actually its overseer would be in a pretty bad spot mentally.

She'd be in a sunk-cost situation where she can't exactly back out since she's already burned every bridge to get here and is trying to convince herself it wasn't all pointless. Cut down on the snark as much as possible and up the fatalism as she figures out she's dug herself into the deepest hole imaginable and can only really press on at this point. This'd make lines like Anduin's about her wanting to convince him as a way to convince herself gel better and would make her turning on the Jailer on the platform after it's too late but be less stupidity at realizing what kind of person he is and more a futile act of rebellion just to reinforce her identity one more time before she loses it one way or another.

[czarek]

Did they hire famous story teller Cliff Hanger for a years now? This is so wrong. They hyped us for huge twist and story reavele but we still know SHIT about Zoval plans. Where the fuck he goes and why and for what. Sylvanas is such a dumb dummy. She is a running kid with scissors. She done bleed to her self and all others around. Nothing explained.

[Jastall]

You know, this is another thing that makes an impression on me. There's this part in this week's main storyline where after the Primus busts free he makes a clone of himself to dispense legendaries and warn you about obvious things in Torghast. When he does so, he gives this fairly generic line about how his broken state is what the Jailer intends for all of creation. Then in the end cinematic you see the Blue Man's first act as this godhead is to turn the Bland Gang into expressionless drones. Anduin himself is basically a meatpuppet and his only lines are those of the Jailer. The one moment of the cinematic regarding Sylvanas that worked is when it pans to her looking over all of them and her two braincells begin to rub together at the sight.

The guy's reaction to Sylvanas's betrayal is just nothing - he doesn't really care one way or another and his new design, while I think it's a bit generic, really helps because he has no face, which makes him even more inhuman. It made me realize that WoW hasn't actually done that kind of villain before - nearly every baddie either wants to stop a bigger foe (Sargeras with the Void Lords, N'zoth with the Jailer, post-Chronicle retcon Arthas with the Legion), has a personal connection to the heroes (N'zoth again, Arthas) or is deeply emotionally invested towards some chaotic end like Deathwing or to an extent Sha-Garrosh. A robot-like threat who has no positive goals in mind and who's intended future consists entirely of empty deadeyed husks and who also doesn't much care about the heroes would've been something fairly new and not all that hard to write for Blizzard. Everything in the Maw screams in the same direction - Torghast is the torture of souls turned into an industrial grind. All the Mawsworn are interchangable faceless suits. They were this close to doing the closest WoW has had to a spite-powered Skynet and I would actually be on board for it as it's a new form of antagonism for the game.

But like any other reading of the character it falls apart because of his other behaviour, like threatening the PC in the Maw, gloating to his family or especially how he's supposedly this manipulator. The Nathrezim are completely at odds with that vibe, but do fit ideally with Denathrius. How damn talkative his minions are is also a total failure. Why are these fuckers taunting me or telling me how the Jailer would reward them? This stock dialogue is in this case worse than nothing because all of them being mute would fit with their stupidly bleak backstory much better. What we know of the process is that these are souls tortured out of any identity and developing Stockholm Syndrome over an uncountable amount of time. To not have them speak with each other, not threaten the player, not allude to any reward to be received or really show any identity at all would both be cheaper and much more intimidating.


Connected with the above, it's mostly just suggested but I can buy that the reason that his henchmen can't use runeblades is because they've already suffered ego death. Anduin was chosen because he wouldn't break and had very strong convictions, whereas all other candidates failed.

Also the Blue Man hijacking the sword, either so he can turn it into a planet-sized runeblade and suck out Azeroth's soul through it or if he shrinks it would be so fucking cheesy I'd be entirely on board for it.

Totally agreed, the Jailer shouldn't even have spoken until, say, the moment we freed the Primus. Not even because he speaks to us, but because he spoke to the Primus as, maybe not an equal, but someone he actually registers. The rest of us are literal gnats to him. Sure, that's also a bit on the generic side especially since we already know we're inevitably going to beat him up for purples, but at least then he's got something to differenciate him from the endless list of villains who taunt us all the time with the same sounding threats- seriously, whenever it's the Legion, Ragnaros, the Scourge, Old Gods, or now Mawsworn they all sound the exact same. "mwahaha you can't stop us mortals" and so forth. Having fantasy pre-5th ed Necrons as antagonists would be have been a change if nothing else.

For Anduin, yeah, maybe you need to be a mortal (or at least who wasn't straight up killed) to wield one effectively, you need to have a soul to scar so its soul-scarring powers activate or whatnot. It's as good as explanation as any we ever get in Warcraft lore, even if it does beg the slight question as to why entirely dead people, who cannot then use said blades, know how to make them.

And yeah, at this point bring on the cheese I say, if this storyline can't be redeemed then at least make it memorable through sheer over the top absurdity. It's part of why I liked Legion TBH, yeah the finer points of the lore were spotty in many places, but damn we ended up fighting a nascent space god on the very cradle of Creation itself using the most legendary weapons on our world, all to stop a planet sized Satan from cleaving said world in half. How equally cool and stupid is that? Even Warhammer 40K rarely goes that over the top.

[username993720]

Another gold meme from Reddit:

True indeed.

[Soon-TM]

the by-now fairly unreliable banshee as an ally.

Tbh, Sylv was never what you'd call a trustworthy ally, not after being raised by Arthas anyway. And the Blue Man, who has supposedly been manipulating all the bad guys including the Legion (via dreadlords) should be the first one to know. As a matter of fact, it is still unclear why did Zovaal have to rely on a random dead elf at all, least of all such a traitorous one.

At all rates, it was very clear from the beginning that either Sylv was going to get dicked by the Blue Man or the other way around. I would have preferred the former, so that Sylv learned that playing with fire sometimes gets you burned, even badly so. A form of poetic justice, if you will.

The latter choice, i.e. Sylv kicking his boss/partner's ass at some point, would have been frankly worse, since it would have reinforced her Evil Sue status - but it would have at least been consistent with her post-Legion (or rather post BtS) characterisation. But instead we got... This.

[Feanoro]

@Varodoc
You aren't enjoying World of Sylvanas? Danuser will be crushed!

[Varodoc]

@Varodoc
You aren't enjoying World of Sylvanas? Danuser will be crushed!

No honestly, as a Void Elf fan I couldn't care about Sylvanas even if I tried. I'm just enjoying the shit show.

Like I'm sure that if I were a Forsaken fan I'd love the 20th CGI cinematic in a row and 3rd novel in a row about my waifu, but unfortunately for Danuser I'm not a Forsaken fan.

I've never been a fan of the Forsaken. So hypocritical. They claim that they are the rightful citizens of Lordaeron but then they wipe out Lordaeron survivors at Southshore and Hillsbrad, so disingenuous and vile.

[shoc]

How Blizzard can make sure people that left stay unsubbed: 101.

How to make the small number of people still around for the lore, realize that there's nothing left here for them.

- - - Updated - - -

To add insult to injury, the next lore dump book is all about Sylvanas. I feel like a child being forced to eat gruel.

[Varodoc]

How to make the small number of people still around for the lore, realize that there's nothing left here for them.

- - - Updated - - -

To add insult to injury, the next lore dump book is all about Sylvanas. I feel like a child being forced to eat gruel.

Because naturally it wasn't enough that the book introducing BfA AND the book introducing Shadowlands were also focused on Sylvanas and her actions.

Imagine how cool it would be if we had a book about the current situation on Azeroth while we aren't there! How Turalyon and Alleria are ruling Stormwind! How Rokhan is ruling Orgrimmar! What's going on with the Scourge!

But no naturally, we need yet another Sylvanas wanking material.

[Soon-TM]

Because naturally it wasn't enough that the book introducing BfA AND the book introducing Shadowlands were also focused on Sylvanas and her actions.

Imagine how cool it would be if we had a book about the current situation on Azeroth while we aren't there! How Turalyon and Alleria are ruling Stormwind! How Rokhan is ruling Orgrimmar! What's going on with the Scourge!

But no naturally, we need yet another Sylvanas wanking material.

And the best part is that half of the book will be retconned to hell and back anyway, if BtS is any precedent.

[Jackstraw]

Like I'm sure that if I were a Forsaken fan I'd love the 20th CGI cinematic in a row and 3rd novel in a row about my waifu, but unfortunately for Danuser I'm not a Forsaken fan.

I've never been a fan of the Forsaken. So hypocritical. They claim that they are the rightful citizens of Lordaeron but then they wipe out Lordaeron survivors at Southshore and Hillsbrad, so disingenuous and vile.

Oh believe you me, if there's a WoW fan liking that cutscene it sure as hell has no fondness of the Forsaken or the previous Sylvanas arc.
Which at this point is just hard to track and it's just better to consider her as presented: a bumbling buffoon.

Hillsbrad and Southshore are fringe cases. Then again the entirety of Lordaeron becomes a warfront at a certain point, and there's the entirety of attritions occurring inbetween Vanilla and Cataclysm.
Yeah, it's monstrous. Then again it's on threat of mutual annihilation. Forsaken never took chances.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I agree the biggest problem is the execution of the story. The trouble is, Blizzard are trying to tell the story through multiple mediums most of which conflict. Whether or not you like the novels, there are big beats in the story that conflict with what happen in game. The one that stuck out the most was Jaina at the end of Warcrimes 'Sure, I'll try and give the Horde another chance.' First appearance in WoD 'Screw the Horde, they are evil incarnate.' Someone needs to either keep a tighter rein on the writers or make sure the books are edited in line with where the in game stuff is going before publishing.

They also seem to have these big ideas, and then fail to follow through with them. The Night Warrior for example, the personification of Elunes vengeance, super powerful. What we get in game is Tyrande running around screaming 'muh revenge' and doing nothing spectacular with the power.

We get the cunning and sly Sylvanas, oblivious to the fact the Jailer is clearly not going to treat her as equal, try to take him out with a single arrow. -Oh please! A few tweaks and they could have made the story look far less contrived. World of Warcraft is in many ways a simple world, we don't need overly complicated plots and mysteries. Simple story-telling is much better and more suited to what they are able to do in game.

Indeed, we never got the place to explore the power of the Night Warrior completely unleashed; I think the most we actually saw of it was during a Night Fae quest? It should have been more prominent within the story. Imagine if the Darkshore Warfront involved Tyrande holding off waves of Undead, or if in some parts of the maw narrative we were saved by Tyrande's Night Warrior power. We just saw too little of it during the actual game experience.

As for Sylvanas arrow? IDK man, I don't think that she believed she was going to get a lucky shot, at all, if anything it was more of a "suicide by cop" thing. When Zovaal catches the arrow, there's no surprise in her face, at all, she knew it was an empty defiance, that whole "I will never serve" was her saying "I'd rather die right now." The twist was that Zovaal, on her cruelty, restored the missing part of her soul just to mess with her.

[DeltrusDisc]

How to make the small number of people still around for the lore, realize that there's nothing left here for them.

- - - Updated - - -

To add insult to injury, the next lore dump book is all about Sylvanas. I feel like a child being forced to eat gruel.

I wish I'd taken a hint with that ending cinematic for Cataclysm.

We all knew the dragons aspects were around to stop the hour of twilight... defeating Deathwing wasn't what that was. ffs

[KOUNTERPARTS]

So does this give more credence to the belief that Zovaal was the original "judge of souls" before the Arbiter?


I know initially the Arbiter was described as being even older than the Titans, but isn't that the same for all of the Eternal Ones. Going back and watching previous in-game cinematics/cutscenes I get the impression Zovaal was the "Arbiter" before the Arbiter was the "Arbiter".


During the cinematic in creating Kingsmourne, he makes the comment of "every soul has its purpose" and while that is a wisdom that all powerful beings in the Shadowlands probably share, every other detail about Zovaal's knowledge of the Shadowlands as a whole, who the First Ones are, and him getting the Arbiter's orb back -- yes, the Arbiter's essence originally belonged to him -- to gain his original power back...


...he was definitely the original Arbiter, right?


The parallels between himself and Arthas grow, ironically enough.

[UndedoKoleda]

So does this give more credence to the belief that Zovaal was the original "judge of souls" before the Arbiter?


I know initially the Arbiter was described as being even older than the Titans, but isn't that the same for all of the Eternal Ones. Going back and watching previous in-game cinematics/cutscenes I get the impression Zovaal was the "Arbiter" before the Arbiter was the "Arbiter".


During the cinematic in creating Kingsmourne, he makes the comment of "every soul has its purpose" and while that is a wisdom that all powerful beings in the Shadowlands probably share, every other detail about Zovaal's knowledge of the Shadowlands as a whole, who the First Ones are, and him getting the Arbiter's orb back -- yes, the Arbiter's essence originally belonged to him -- to gain his original power back...


...he was definitely the original Arbiter, right?


The parallels between himself and Arthas grow, ironically enough.

Ok, if we assume that he was the original Arbiter and the rest of the Eternal Ones brought him down and elected(or simply put) another Arbiter in his place, that means that the Eternal Ones have the power to assign an Arbiter themselves.

Isn't it weird that at the start of the Shadowlands, the Eternal Ones knew that the current Arbiter was rendered useless(I mean, at the very least the Kyrians knew that the souls they brought were going straight to the Maw, so I assume the rest of the Eternal Ones knew as well, considering the anima drought and all that...). Couldn't they just elect another one, given the circumstances? I mean, it was obvious that the souls were going straight to their dangerous brother, who they themselves imprisoned, yet they didn't seem to care much about that at all.

Am I missing something crucial here?

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Ok, if we assume that he was the original Arbiter and the rest of the Eternal Ones brought him down and elected(or simply put) another Arbiter in his place, that means that the Eternal Ones have the power to assign an Arbiter themselves.

Isn't it weird that at the start of the Shadowlands, the Eternal Ones knew that the current Arbiter was rendered useless(I mean, at the very least the Kyrians knew that the souls they brought were going straight to the Maw, so I assume the rest of the Eternal Ones knew as well, considering the anima drought and all that...). Couldn't they just elect another one, given the circumstances? I mean, it was obvious that the souls were going straight to their dangerous brother, who they themselves imprisoned, yet they didn't seem to care much about that at all.

Am I missing something crucial here?

Going with what you are presenting, electing a new Arbiter, then yes they should have the capability of making yet another one.


I don't get the impression at the beginning of the expansion, during the "What's the Deal with The Arbiter?" time frame, that everybody immediately knew it was the Maw and the Jailer behind everything. One could argue that by the time they realized all of the treachery going on (in Maldraxxus, Denathrius, the Jailer behind it all) they were so deep in those issues that they didn't have time to deal with the Arbiter issue?


Maybe? At least my interpretation.


I know sometimes Blizzard has issues with translating certain emotions, events, or just general "understandings" through things in-game. You rely mostly on what the characters say things to be (how dire a threat is, or the conclusion of something that happens off-screen) so perhaps they did care but you don't really see it for yourself?


Anyway, I am unsure what the reason behind not being able to just to take the the orb out of the Arbiter when they had the chance... assuming they could. So perhaps it's not the case. Still... a lot of these details pointing towards Zovaal being the original Arbiter are still striking.

[Beuargh]

In any case I am curious to see what's gonna happen to her now that she is in custody and with her full soul back. I wonder if the Ranger General Soul knew what her bad part did.

full soul or not, it doesn't seem to have any impact on her memory, the first thing she said with "her soul" is "we cannot let him reach the...". she's still aware of what's going on. if they tell us that she doesn't remember, it's just some more bullshit writing. but at this point I don't know what they can do with the story to turn it good, IMO it's irrecoverable already.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

full soul or not, it doesn't seem to have any impact on her memory, the first thing she said with "her soul" is "we cannot let him reach the...". she's still aware of what's going on. if they tell us that she doesn't remember, it's just some more bullshit writing. but at this point I don't know what they can do with the story to turn it good, IMO it's irrecoverable already.

I get the impression that Sylvanas getting her soul back (or the portion to complete her soul) is going down the 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' rules of one when getting their soul back.

[useyouriq]

Because naturally it wasn't enough that the book introducing BfA AND the book introducing Shadowlands were also focused on Sylvanas and her actions.

Imagine how cool it would be if we had a book about the current situation on Azeroth while we aren't there! How Turalyon and Alleria are ruling Stormwind! How Rokhan is ruling Orgrimmar! What's going on with the Scourge!

But no naturally, we need yet another Sylvanas wanking material.

Aren't you that guy who spammed some months ago all the time how Sylvanas will be done with in 9.1 and we never gonna see her again and how you cant wait for that to happen?
Yeah, haha. Didn't played out well for you , right ?