Maybe the problem are the writers

[Jackstraw]

If Varodoc dons his Alleria uber alles persona, then it's done lads.

Garrosh had issues and that's what made him a strong character. The way he longs for his world during the Siege of Orgrimmar encounter speaks leaps and bounds about him, his insecurities and how when the world rejected him he decided to place everything he had on his convictions.
He's a flawed broken orc who lived under the crushing weight of his name, his clan and the expectations placed upon him. His last words are apt and his arc decently closed, his legacy - to me - on par with the one of his father.

There are not many characters who can claim such a feat.

[Rexosaurus]

If you can not see how out of touch the writers are after Jaina flip flopped mood over several expansion, while the person that writes her says she is headstrong and has a STRONG CORE, after all the damage she has done, then I'm sorry.

Richard A. Knaak got shit on for his powertrips with his own character. Danuser gets shit on for having a boner for Sylvanas. Christie Golden keeps latching onto Jaina Proudmoore being a strong, woman character slay queen while her portrayal ingame is equivelant to that on a teenage girl in a Twilight book.

You're not really going to find me defending the story in WoW. But the writers flip-flopping on Jaina's characterization from MoP-Legion doesn't change the fact that your posts here are also clearly biased and, in some cases, not entirely accurate.

This whole thread basically looks to be set up as another Garrosh circle-jerk, which seems unnecessary since that's already going on in the "New Garrosh Cinematic" topic.

[justandulas]

I stumbled upon this interview from Christie Golden upon characters like Garrosh and Jaina. It perfectly shows on what the writers think is so out of touch with the portrayal ingame.

Full interview: https://www.engadget.com/2012-08-21-...ie-golden.html



Apparently Garrosh has a weak core, and his opinions change on the moment. He is not headstrong and stubborn. He is very weak and influenceable.

Where as Jaina:



Yes, as you see, Jaina has a very strong core. She does not change moods or opinion as often.

This was an interview during MoP.
This was during a time where Jaina had to be stopped from flooding Orgrimmar, where she murdered innocent Blood Elves in Dalaran.
This was "stable Jaina" that ruined peace talks between the Alliance and the Blood Elves.

And yeah, at that time we didn't know how headstrong Garrosh was going to be. But he doesn't seem very weak considering his last cinematic.

This perfectly portrays how out of touch some writers are. How does this even happen? Just how?
Maybe Blizzard needs to come to face with how delusional the writers are with the portrayal of characters presented ingame.

This is so fucking bad.

Jaina also should have died during BFA raid if the writers had even an ounce of guts.

I think the biggest issue with the writers, is there isn't a single iota of testosterone in that room. They need to bring in a manly man, an al bundy type, to come into the story room and bring the story back down to relatable levels, better characters, darker stories, and REAL winners and losers. You know, like life. This is WAR craft, right? You wouldn't know if from the last decade of stories, even the 4th war was the softest most off screen war in gaming history arguably. Not a single character of NOTE died in either teldrissel, or lordoran. i mean, come the you know what on with that BS.

basically, go look at who the writers follow on twitter. they follow the looniest of the tunes on twitter, and are in the echo chamber where being a man is practically a crime to them and any masculinity is "toxic" masculinity. When they insulted asmongold last week, for example, it was a response to a twitter user that NO RESPECTABLE HUMAN BEING would follow. An absolute bugs bunny lvl of looney tune, and blizz writers/devs follow them and carea bout them more than their real customers.

[Varodoc]

If Varodoc dons his Alleria uber alles persona, then it's done lads.

Garrosh had issues and that's what made him a strong character. The way he longs for his world during the Siege of Orgrimmar encounter speaks leaps and bounds about him, his insecurities and how when the world rejected him he decided to place everything he had on his convictions.
He's a flawed broken orc who lived under the crushing weight of his name, his clan and the expectations placed upon him. His last words are apt and his arc decently closed, his legacy - to me - on par with the one of his father.

There are not many characters who can claim such a feat.

As anyone who values the good and honest work of the writers, I take issue with the claim "Garrosh is the only one who could control the Void whispers, no one else could replicate it" when we have an entire race who replicated and perfected it under far harsher circumstances.

This is just senseless wanking, what Garrosh did was nothing unique, special, or unprecedented.

[Jackstraw]

Jaina, on the other hand, acknowledges her mistakes and the criticism levied at her and stops her descent into zealotry to eventually level out and return to herself.

The simpathetic version of Jaina was built on the premise that Theramore was bombed without reason.
She lost everything due to her naive actions which she never reconciled with, and the plot went to great lengths to justify her wrath and fall from grace.
The BfA stuff is pretty good though, and mends what's possible of her arc delivering a new stable, wiser Jaina to the narrative.

Now if only we could stop Darion from announcing her deeds every two apocalypses.

- - - Updated - - -

As anyone who values the good and honest work of the writers, I take issue with the claim "Garrosh is the only one who could control the Void whispers, no one else could replicate it" when we have an entire race who replicated and perfected it under far harsher circumstances.

This is just senseless wanking, what Garrosh did was nothing unique, special, or unprecedented.

What Garrosh did was unprecedented. Without training or prior knowledge, with his own will, he managed to keep partial control over an Old God's remnant, and a pretty strong one, only starting to lose himself as the fight started to be lost.

Was he the best at it? No.
Was he the very first we've been shown with this much talent? Yes. And I'll take one step further in stating that whatever Umbric might have started studying could have been after witnessing the deeds of the fallen Warchief or possibly partaking in all the legwork the Sin'dorei did to secure the bell first and the heart second.

[Dazmalak]

Golden is a fanfic writer and her opinions on characterization and what they should be are laughable in my eyes.

[Varodoc]

The simpathetic version of Jaina was built on the premise that Theramore was bombed without reason.
She lost everything due to her naive actions which she never reconciled with, and the plot went to great lengths to justify her wrath and fall from grace.
The BfA stuff is pretty good though, and mends what's possible of her arc delivering a new stable, wiser Jaina to the narrative.

Now if only we could stop Darion from announcing her deeds every two apocalypses.

- - - Updated - - -



What Garrosh did was unprecedented. Without training or prior knowledge, with his own will, he managed to keep partial control over an Old God's remnant, and a pretty strong one, only starting to lose himself as the fight started to be lost.

Was he the best at it? No.
Was he the very first we've been shown with this much talent? Yes. And I'll take one step further in stating that whatever Umbric might have started studying could have been after witnessing the deeds of the fallen Warchief or possibly partaking in all the legwork the Sin'dorei did to secure the bell first and the heart second.

I'm not getting through to you, so I'll simply ask you a direct Yes or No question. Does this sound like someone who's in control of their mental state?

The True Horde WILL come to pass. I have SEEN it. IT HAS SHOWN ME. I HAVE SEEN MOUNTAINS OF SKULLS AND RIVERS OF BLOOD. AND I WILL... HAVE... MY... WORLD!

Phase 4 (Mythic Only)
You think you have WON? You are BLIND. I WILL FORCE YOUR EYES OPEN.
BEHOLD, MY GLORIOUS DESTINY!

Call Bombardment
THERE IS NO PLACE FOR YOU IN MY WORLD.

Manifest Rage
I WILL DESTROY EVERYTHING YOU HAVE EVER LOVED.

Berserk
All will fall in the name of Hellscream!

Killing a Player

Pitiful.
Weak.

Wipe
Now you know your place in my new world.

Defeated (Normal)
No... It cannot end...like this...What I... What I have seen...

Defeated (Mythic)
No... NO... This world... Is my destiny... My destiny...

[Aucald]

The simpathetic version of Jaina was built on the premise that Theramore was bombed without reason.
She lost everything due to her naive actions which she never reconciled with, and the plot went to great lengths to justify her wrath and fall from grace.
The BfA stuff is pretty good though, and mends what's possible of her arc delivering a new stable, wiser Jaina to the narrative.

Now if only we could stop Darion from announcing her deeds every two apocalypses.

Regardless of whether one considers what happened to Theramore as justified or not, it still holds true that the event cost her the city she had built, and led to the violent deaths of several dear friends like her apprentice Kinndy, her bodyguard and close friend Pained, and Rhonin himself. That's going to have an effect on anyone, really.

[justandulas]

The simpathetic version of Jaina was built on the premise that Theramore was bombed without reason.
She lost everything due to her naive actions which she never reconciled with, and the plot went to great lengths to justify her wrath and fall from grace.
The BfA stuff is pretty good though, and mends what's possible of her arc delivering a new stable, wiser Jaina to the narrative.

Now if only we could stop Darion from announcing her deeds every two apocalypses.

- - - Updated - - -



What Garrosh did was unprecedented. Without training or prior knowledge, with his own will, he managed to keep partial control over an Old God's remnant, and a pretty strong one, only starting to lose himself as the fight started to be lost.

Was he the best at it? No.
Was he the very first we've been shown with this much talent? Yes. And I'll take one step further in stating that whatever Umbric might have started studying could have been after witnessing the deeds of the fallen Warchief or possibly partaking in all the legwork the Sin'dorei did to secure the bell first and the heart second.

I think you could very well make the case garrosh did it best, and had the most willpower of ANY wow character of all time.

Anyone else in the conversation of controlling power on that level relies on CENTURIES of magic and knowledge. Garrosh? He used nothing but his strength of will to tame an old god.

Also, for all we know the void/light may be easier to manipulate and control just by it's very nature where the old gods are defiant and self reliant, making Garrosh controlling it even more impressive than something like Alleria wielding the void (zzz any elf can do it) or warriors of the light since any goober can be a paladin.

As for the Naaru, they aren't even comparable to old god power. Illidan SOLO'd one, Illidan could NOT have solo'd Yogg Saron/C'thun/Yshaarj but Garrosh basically said "Get down or be destroyed by me" and the most powerful of the old gods complied "Yes warchief"

[LordVargK]

Garrosh pre MoP had a weak core and was insecure. In MoP though (and now in the new cinematic) he overcame this obstacle and was fully convinced that his doing was right. But he was also extremely stupid. He was the perfect Orc. No thinking, just raging. The dude couldn't even talk normal...

[Houle]

As anyone who values the good and honest work of the writers, I take issue with the claim "Garrosh is the only one who could control the Void whispers, no one else could replicate it" when we have an entire race who replicated and perfected it under far harsher circumstances.

This is just senseless wanking, what Garrosh did was nothing unique, special, or unprecedented.

and yet, he did basically the same thing that alleria and her void elf minions are doing now.
that "carcass" of an old god was still fully loaded with void energy (enough to literally ruin half of the vale when just dipped into its waters), and was still whispering constantly (even to us, during the scenario and during the garrosh fight).
and garrosh absorbed it fully, ignored the whispers, and bend the power (of the void) to his control. he was in full control throughout the entire thing. thats a fact, confirmed by the writers.
garrosh did what the void elves are doing now, just 3 xpacs earlier and as a villain. garrosh basically is the OG void elf lmao

[Aucald]

and yet, he did basically the same thing that alleria and her void elf minions are doing now.
that "carcass" of an old god was still fully loaded with void energy (enough to literally ruin half of the vale when just dipped into its waters), and was still whispering constantly (even to us, during the scenario and during the garrosh fight).
and garrosh absorbed it fully, ignored the whispers, and bend the power (of the void) to his control. he was in full control throughout the entire thing. thats a fact, confirmed by the writers.
garrosh did what the void elves are doing now, just 3 xpacs earlier and as a villain. garrosh basically is the OG void elf lmao

Garrosh may have been in full control of his faculties, but he was definitely mutated into a towering abomination during the fight itself and his incoherent rambling eerily matched Y'Shaarj's own whispered entreaties as related by wielding Xal'atoh. Perhaps in the end there was no need to corrupt Garrosh because he was already mentally and emotionally aligned with what the Old God wanted to begin with - he could master their power because there was nothing to overcome with him, he was essentially operating on the same wavelength to begin with. In that sense, I'm sure an already insane High or Blood Elf would be mostly unchanged by embracing the Void, they might even find it comforting. Garrosh and the Old God went together like peanut butter and jelly.

[Soon-TM]

Well, I totally believe that this thread was made with zero biases and only good intentions.

You are entitled to not like the OP, but it clearly shows the blatant double standard of at least one of the main writers.

[Rozz]

I think this is a misinterpretation of what is being said. Garrosh wasn't strong enough to stick to the honor, ethics, and noble ideals he originally had. He let pain and resentment take over, creating someone stubbornly clinging to his faults. A morally bankrupt tyrant. Jaina is one of few characters to go through such a high amount of trauma and keep what Garrosh and Sylvanas lost.

A character can be consistent and achieve a lot, while internally weak-willed. Arthas and Illidan were the same. Likewise, a character can stick to their guns, but appear ineffectual comparatively. See Velen, Anduin, Khadgar, etc.

Someone who was a good mix was Varian. He was hardened by his past, but kept the values that make up the current alliance. Garrosh's characterization is literally a small boy who overcompensates for his insecurities in every aspect of his life.

[Jackstraw]

I'm not getting through to you, so I'll simply ask you a direct Yes or No question. Does this sound like someone who's in control of their mental state?

As I said, by the end he's completely deranged. So no.

If I'm trying to take Alleria's arc seriously for a second and ignoring her Sueish status, the fact that she's able to pull off such a feat as absorbing a Void Naaru's core is due to the Locus Walker's training which lasted quite enough, possibly years.
Garrosh had none.

And while we're in Alleria's territory, the Cursed Visions show what happens when the Void becomes extremely prominent: Alleria succumbs to the voices. The visions are a possible future, one we thwarted, but neither Umbric nor her retain their mental state when the power they're exposed to is so overwhelming compared to what they can manage.

[loras]

I stumbled upon this interview from Christie Golden upon characters like Garrosh and Jaina. It perfectly shows on what the writers think is so out of touch with the portrayal ingame.

Full interview: https://www.engadget.com/2012-08-21-...ie-golden.html



Apparently Garrosh has a weak core, and his opinions change on the moment. He is not headstrong and stubborn. He is very weak and influenceable.

Where as Jaina:



Yes, as you see, Jaina has a very strong core. She does not change moods or opinion as often.

This was an interview during MoP.
This was during a time where Jaina had to be stopped from flooding Orgrimmar, where she murdered innocent Blood Elves in Dalaran.
This was "stable Jaina" that ruined peace talks between the Alliance and the Blood Elves.

And yeah, at that time we didn't know how headstrong Garrosh was going to be. But he doesn't seem very weak considering his last cinematic.

This perfectly portrays how out of touch some writers are. How does this even happen? Just how?
Maybe Blizzard needs to come to face with how delusional the writers are with the portrayal of characters presented ingame.

This is so fucking bad.

Weakness like that does not clash with stubbornness and pride at all though, hell pride especially often coincides with weakness.

I mean pride is often just the flimsy shield they hold in front of their soft core, and it makes them vulnerable to manipulation.

So i see what she's saying about Garrosh.

Jaina i find less convincing, as she never did have much of a convincing story in that sense.
I mean if we take her as a peacenik she literally was moments away from comitting Hordicide at some point by literally just washing away Orgrimmar, so i agree on Jaina.

[Jackstraw]

Regardless of whether one considers what happened to Theramore as justified or not, it still holds true that the event cost her the city she had built, and led to the violent deaths of several dear friends like her apprentice Kinndy, her bodyguard and close friend Pained, and Rhonin himself. That's going to have an effect on anyone, really.

For sure. But she never acknowledges that becoming involved in a war is bound to have consequences. She's led to resolve her losses and absolve the Horde of its sins, and the overarching narrative still ignores what Theramore was during the hostilities: the main staging ground for the Alliance operations in the Barrens.

[Nerovar]

Considering Garrosh stuck to his guns at all times and Jaina has flip-flopped twice per expansion up until finally settling on reverting to her WC3 characterization for no adequate reason in BFA I think we can make an informed decision on who's convictions were stronger.

These were my exact thoughts while reading this. It doesn't really portray these writers in a good light when their story tells the exact opposite of what they're preaching outside of the game. It's a very bizarre dissonance.

[Rexosaurus]

You are entitled to not like the OP, but it clearly shows the blatant double standard of at least one of the main writers.

I would say that posts with bias and faulty information don't "clearly" show anything, and that they only undermine any kind of point that the OP may have.

[Dakhath]

Sorry but this post is a cope. Garrosh was winning the war and if Vol'jin didn't backstab Garrosh the Alliance would've gotten annihilated. Garrosh even won against the Burning Legion and smashed Mannoroth while capturing Gul'dan. (That we the players did release )

But on top of that, Garrosh didn't have anime powers like Varian. All he got was his own strength and hus willpower. He controlled an Old God. A feat not done by any character.

Garrosh was a formidable foe and a headstrong leader.

Garrash was basically Marty Mcfly with the sports almanac betting on a horse race when he faced Mannoroth. Hardly makes him a great anything.