For ALL non WL raiders

[Lolites]

i havent checked recent numbers with the new covenant leggos now available but as for my spec the top choice is as of the last time i saw
ahead of the second choice in raids by 6%
ahead of the third by 9%
ahead of the last by 16%

soulbinds, conduits (and legendary if needed) included or JUST the ability? bcs covenant is a package, so its important to include all...

this is quite often problem bcs people focus on single information and ignore the rest of the spectrum, i have example of that as back as wotlk, when my leader wanted me to go to 10m raid as unholy due to spell damage taken debuf i would put on the boss, bcs thats what was optimal for raid by guides and whatnot, BUT he ignored that we only had 2 caster dps, that would be +5% dmg to each as blood i would do around 20% more dps than as unholy (even though as unholy i did about as much as other dps)...
in 25m i went for unholy as we had 9 or 10 casters so their gain was higher than my loss for raid as whole, but in 10m it would be madnes, yet if we only looked at my dps and nothing else it would be weird that i go unholy when i do much less dps...

[Revamp Man]

soulbinds, conduits (and legendary if needed) included or JUST the ability? bcs covenant is a package, so its important to include all...
this is quite often problem bcs people focus on single information and ignore the rest of the spectrum, i have example of that as back as wotlk, when my leader wanted me to go to 10m raid as unholy due to spell damage taken debuf i would put on the boss, bcs thats what was optimal for raid BUT he ignored that we only had 2 caster dps, that would be +5% dmg to each as blood i would do around 20% more dps than as unholy...
in 25m i went for unholy as we had 9 or 10 casters so their gain was better than my loss for raid as whole, but in 10m it would be madnes, yet if we only looked at my dps and nothing else it would be weird that i go unholy when i do much less dps...

its everything
like the problem is the kyrian pelagos buff is extremely powerful for me and the ability lines up with my other CDs and the legendary makes it even stronger
personally im ok with it as the covenant fills that role of bursty damage which is extremely useful when you need to burn adds
its also the only ability i really enjoy lol

the big thing about the entire covenant system is that while its filled with choices its literally impossible to completely balance and in a game with an audience so diverse you will have players in 4 groups
the hardcore min/maxer that does world first
the higher end players that just want to optimize their character and do things like compete for log ranks
the mid level players that will sacrifice performance for fun
the low end players that sit in lfr and refuse to open the journal to figure out the single mechanic on the boss

you will have a good time as long as the player from group B doesnt join a guild that is focused on group C mindset and try to change the guild

but the problem is players in each group try to act like they are in the first group when in reality they cant even figure out the reason holy paladins and venthyr were powerful

[antelope591]

Lol this crap again. No one cares about rp at this point so of course whichever is the best performing is what people will pick. What RP'ers should be asking is why did blizz make switching so annoying when all the covenants are working together?

[Kumorii]

What is there to enjoy in the game other than seeing the numbers go up?

Is that really the only thing for you? Just curious... for me it's part of it, but if the gameplay isn't fun it doesn't matter if my numbers go up, it's still boring.

[Nalam the Venom]

Is that really the only thing for you? Just curious... for me it's part of it, but if the gameplay isn't fun it doesn't matter if my numbers go up, it's still boring.

Well.

I don’t play games that are not fun.

Has WoW ever been not fun?

[Doffen]

Is that really the only thing for you? Just curious... for me it's part of it, but if the gameplay isn't fun it doesn't matter if my numbers go up, it's still boring.

Same here. I would argue, having fun is improving my performance compared to a better simmed, unfun spec.

[Eazy]

You're not wrong, but, you CAN choose any covenant, so your argument kind of falls apart immediately.

What argument?

I wrote that I chose the Highest number covenant because I can.

[Kumorii]

Well.

I don’t play games that are not fun.

Has WoW ever been not fun?

that's not exactly what I was talking about though... maybe your phrasing was weird. It just imply that the only fun part is increasing numbers. Emphasis on the "ONLY" part.

[Saltysquidoon]

No, he's saying the 0.X% raw DPS loss is way less important than what the general trend of opinion makes you think when you're in a population outside World First guilds.

You realise those tiny percents add up right?
Like yeah, one person out of 20 with the 'wrong' covenant is irrelevant. What about 8 people? What about 20? What if no one showed up with gems or enchants?

Here's a thought experiment.
Would it be easier for a non-gemmed and enchanted group with the 'wrong' covenants and the 'wrong' specs to prog through a raid than the reverse? If the answer is yes (and the answer mathematically has to be yes) then at some point it does matter to the raid.

[Qnubi]

But you miss one point. It doesn't matter if you are a world first raider or not. Most people do content that is challenging to them, that means wiping in heroic to bosses. They also need an edge from higher numbers because their lack of ability can not be compensated by playing better since they already play at their 100%. Most of the people in heroic progress guilds have reached their skill ceiling, otherwise they would be playing mythic. These same people need higher numbers to beat heroic, it's impossible to reach the highest form of playing for a lot of people, regardless of time spent in game or how long they "practise". So yeah, heroic progress people need to min/max just as much as people that are WF raiders, just that the WF need it to squeeze out the most out of their characters while heroic progress players need to compensate for lack of player skill.

It's the same process, just with a different cause.

[Molvonos]

Yeah hi, as a warlock every single one of my covenant abilities are shit so I don't have to worry about that so much. Shout out to Venthyr for being an actual DPS loss to use at launch (idk if that changed). You know, the combo that a ton of warlocks went for because they wanted to have a covenant that fit their aesthetic...

Just because you can play anything doesn't mean it's acceptable that some combinations are absolute dogshit and borderline detrimental to choose. That's just bad design to force players into a choice that they don't know they might regret later unless they look at online guides. If they were all close in value that'd be one thing, but I know for a fact that warlock isn't the only class with this issue.

Gonna inject this right here.

Night Fae, hands down, was the best covenant to pick for locks from the start of the expac to now (necrolord eaks in for demonology). Soul Rots just too good. Especially for affliction, but decently for Destro.

Not necessarily for the damage, but for the mastery boost.

Soul Shape also removes one of our biggest issues: mobility. You can argue venthyrs little door of shadows helps too, but with a cast time and cooldown, it's not nearly as good as pseudo blink.

Downsides?

Everything else. The transmogs are hot garbage for clothies and the moldy pool noodle mount (imo) is hot garbage compared to the other covenants.

[Lolites]

you will have a good time as long as the player from group B doesnt join a guild that is focused on group C mindset and try to change the guild

well, yeah, it is social "problem" which goes way beyond balancing, if you want to primarily raid and you will join guild focused on M+, and so on, i think its literaly impossible to "solve" by blizz as its almost completely player driven problem

[Easyclassictopkeklel]

I don't play my best covenant, still top the damage meters in a CE guild.

Covenants are overrated. Work on your own gameplay skills first.

topping the meters in some random guild says nothing about your skill.

[Lolites]

but the problem is players in each group try to act like they are in the first group when in reality they cant even figure out the reason holy paladins and venthyr were powerful

very much this, some people cant grasp that just bcs in OPTIMAL conditions and while performed PERFECTLY one clas/spec/talents/covenant combo is "best" it doesnt mean they will do best with it, and use it even if they actualy underperform with it as they cant utilise their spells properly...

breath build for frost DK is perfect example, THEORETICALY its "best" so everyone and their grandmother run it, yet half of the people using it would do better with obliteration bcs they cant hold the breath long enough or use it at wrong time, or loose WAY too much dmg due to moving...

[Ninix]

You realise those tiny percents add up right?
Like yeah, one person out of 20 with the 'wrong' covenant is irrelevant. What about 8 people? What about 20? What if no one showed up with gems or enchants?

Here's a thought experiment.
Would it be easier for a non-gemmed and enchanted group with the 'wrong' covenants and the 'wrong' specs to prog through a raid than the reverse? If the answer is yes (and the answer mathematically has to be yes) then at some point it does matter to the raid.

Next time, read and quote my entire statement, and not just a part of it, please

I didn't say it doesn't matter.
I said it matters way less for 99% of the community than some people want to believe and impose through their behavior and declarations regarding "wrong covenant" choice.

For your proposed experiment: I'm deeply convinced that if a guild fails to have a decent progress and takes several weeks/months to clean a raid, the lack of skills, training and knowledge of the mechanics are a way more impactul reason than some potential raw overall DPS loss related to the covenant choice of a few players.
If I push it : do you prefer to have a ilvl-pusher player with no consideration of secondary stats optimization but with the "good" covenant or a player with perfect gear opti but a mediocre covenant ability ?
How can you décrete that the bad covenant choice is what's keeping your group down?


Once again, it's obvious that covenant, as gearing, enchanting and so on, is a part of minmaxing your power and so your chances of sucess.
My critics go the part that minmaxing around the covenant choice seems to take way too much space in people's mind. I think the impact is widely overestimated when looking for the causes of potential failures in a mid-tier WoW gaming (hence the initial exclusion of Word First guilds / MDI players /...)

[Daronokk]

What is there to enjoy in the game other than seeing the numbers go up?

Maybe a calculator is a cheaper option than paying a monthly subsciption to digital drugs.

[Crimson Spears]

Content is only tuned around it for the very first wave of cutting edge raiders and ultra high M+ pushers.

Vast and overwhelming majority of players reach high end PvE content at the point where their wipes are purely and completely down to personal and leadership fuckups and not because they happen to play Covenant X that does 2.5% less theoretical dps than Covenant Y.

Compared to power you gain overtime during the patch from passive gains like vault, renown and gems/domination/patch mechanic - Covenant difference is completely negligible.

It's the level of those pepegas that think that playing race A instead of B matters in throughput.

Here's the neat part about your post.

It is effectively entirely wrong. I say effectively because a few select specs don't see massive damage differences between covenants but if we are at the point of arguing that if the entire raid is carrying nearly half a persons dps in dmg we are already arguing an absurd point and that is only using your randomly pulled number...

Could you in theory do it? I don't know to be frank. Like most people claiming you don't need to do this I know you don't have a log to prove it can be done because that log doesn't exist.

[HumbleDuck]

The irony is strong with this post.

[Nalam the Venom]

Maybe a calculator is a cheaper option than paying a monthly subsciption to digital drugs.

How do you play WoW on a calculator?

Or what are you refering to?

[Malania]

What is there to enjoy in the game other than seeing the numbers go up?

Seems kind of pointless to pay for that. But if you insist then I'll loan you a calculator for 4.99 a month instead and you can add +1 indefinitely. Save you some money on your number fetish.