Maybe the problem are the writers

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Correct me if I'm wrong. But Varock did not agree to cause harm. The plan was to take hostages so that the Alliance cannot attack them.
The one causing a wound was Sylvanas idae.

But of course it can always be that the Horde is seen as so evil by writers that it can start a war just to inflict damage.

The plan was both. Take the tree hostage so the alliance couldn’t attack back without risking the civilians and kill malfurion to show that even there most powerful heros could die killing any hope of heroic action.

With malf still alive they’d still have the hostages but his recovery would embolden the alliance making them likely to still act.

[sighy]

Such a reasonable explanation isn’t actually given in a good war all they say is that they wanted a wound that wouldn’t heal and with malf alive they needed a different one the alliance retaking the tree was never actually brought up.

It was, in the part where Saurfang confronted Sylvanas about it and then it worked through his catching up, altho the holding onto Teldrassil was not stated explicitely, but the sentiment of the alliance seeing Malfurion's survival as proof of their blessed cause leading to an absolute meat grinder was there implying it. (Think Napoleon in Spain)

[geco]

The plan was both. Take the tree hostage so the alliance couldn’t attack back without risking the civilians and kill malfurion to show that even there most powerful heros could die killing any hope of heroic action.

With malf still alive they’d still have the hostages but his recovery would embolden the alliance making them likely to still act.

Okay so Varock agreed to attack the Kaldorei just to kill one of their leaders. Which were friends of Thrall who founded the Horde.

The more I know of the less Honorable it becomes. How can it be honorable to start a war to kill a "friend"?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

It was, in the part where Saurfang confronted Sylvanas about it and then it worked through his catching up, altho the holding onto Teldrassil was not stated explicitely, but the sentiment of the alliance seeing Malfurion's survival as proof of their blessed cause leading to an absolute meat grinder was there implying it. (Think Napoleon in Spain)

It was more so that malf’S survival would spread hope and that when the alliance strikes back it would be with hope and not disappear.

Malfurion him self being able to retake the tree with ease was never an issue brought up.

[sighy]

Okay so Varock agreed to attack the Kaldorei just to kill one of their leaders. Which were friends of Thrall who founded the Horde.

The more I know of the less Honorable it becomes. How can it be honorable to start a war to kill a "friend"?

The more you think about it the more dubious and inconsistent Saurfang's sense of honor becomes overall, but Thrall was no longer directly associated with the Horde, at that point. And the idea presented to him was more like divide and beat into submission anyway.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Okay so Varock agreed to attack the Kaldorei just to kill one of their leaders. Which were friends of Thrall who founded the Horde.

The more I know of the less Honorable it becomes. How can it be honorable to start a war to kill a "friend"?

He didn’t just agree to it he came up with the plan him self but then for some nonsense reason he ruins his own plan by not killing malf.

[sighy]

It was more so that malf’S survival would spread hope and that when the alliance strikes back it would be with hope and not disappear.

Malfurion him self being able to retake the tree with ease was never an issue brought up.

I saw it as implied... Maybe i gave them too much credit, but the sentiment of the Kaldorei fighting like dogs to the bitter end was certainly a present consideration, on top of the retaliation being better planned than a hasty emotional retaliation, which happened. (Save the small detail about Jaina ex machina suddenly pulling a magical flying boat, ability to clear the blight and firepower to break down the walls out of her ass... Despite her next greatest prior unassisted feat being basically a bunch of icicles and teleportation of a moderately sized group)

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He didn’t just agree to it he came up with the plan him self but then for some nonsense reason he ruins his own plan by not killing malf.

The explanation we got was "Uh, Elune i guess..."

[Anevers]

I stumbled upon this interview from Christie Golden upon characters like Garrosh and Jaina. It perfectly shows on what the writers think is so out of touch with the portrayal ingame.

Full interview: https://www.engadget.com/2012-08-21-...ie-golden.html



Apparently Garrosh has a weak core, and his opinions change on the moment. He is not headstrong and stubborn. He is very weak and influenceable.

Where as Jaina:



Yes, as you see, Jaina has a very strong core. She does not change moods or opinion as often.

This was an interview during MoP.
This was during a time where Jaina had to be stopped from flooding Orgrimmar, where she murdered innocent Blood Elves in Dalaran.
This was "stable Jaina" that ruined peace talks between the Alliance and the Blood Elves.

And yeah, at that time we didn't know how headstrong Garrosh was going to be. But he doesn't seem very weak considering his last cinematic.

This perfectly portrays how out of touch some writers are. How does this even happen? Just how?
Maybe Blizzard needs to come to face with how delusional the writers are with the portrayal of characters presented ingame.

This is so fucking bad.

So your whole thing is cherry picking parts from an interview from nearly a decade ago...

[Soon-TM]

From what I understand, Golden is disliked whenever she has to tie in lore that is not settled. People seemed to like Rise of the Horde, not so much can be said about her later works.

Golden's case is quite odd, because her first Warcraft books (i.e. when she was presumably still quite unfamiliar with the franchise) are much more palatable imo than the last abominations.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Golden's case is quite odd, because her first Warcraft books (i.e. when she was presumably still quite unfamiliar with the franchise) are much more palatable imo than the last abominations.

I wouldn’t say it’s odd if she’s just filling some one else’s orders storywise and the person giving the orders goes down in quality sharply you’d expect a drop in what she puts out.

Her own “touch’s” like how every book has a unneeded romance seems to have more or less stayed the same in quality, not that said quality is anything to praise and she’s likely gotten more free Will in how much uneeded stuff she can add with the more books she’s done.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

A Good War actually had the Burning of Teldrassil well rationalised, in that with Malfurion the most powerful druid, in the world, by far still kicking the Horde never could have held onto it and by that point they were too deep to go back. That story was actually damn well written, in that it married the Sylvanas we knew previously, with the contemporary narrative. Even going as far as having Saurfang in a sort of Whatsonish role to highlight her intellect. But damn did it go downhill from there xD

I generally agree with you, except on Liadrin. In that she(And the Blood Knights) has generally always been absolutely vicious. Granted a lot of BE characters lost their edge after Fury of the Sunwell raid, which to be honest was a change for the worse imho, because it kind of just resolved the race's main conflict and driving force, with the whole mana addict thing and Blizz never really knew where to go with them from there, outside of brief stints as Jaina's punching bags and Lor'themar's whining.

It's not enough to resolve the issues with this whole conflict, from the NE sending half of their forces to Silithus just based on something said during a fake brawl when you can't make plans based on something like that, plans are based on many evidences and details, as the complete absence of the majority of Night Elves' allies such as Draenei, Worgens, Furbolgs, Chimaeras, Fae Dragons, Mountain Giants or Wildkins during the war of thorns.

And honnestly the lack of opposition from Saurfang and most Horde leaders to attacking the NE like that and without major provocation from them, and for Azerite and just after the Burning Legion war, as well as the lack of remorse amongst the Horde (especially the Nightborne) for their actions barring Baine and Saurfang was really forced and made the Horde look very unsympathetic.

[shoc]

The problem is a mismatch between what the writers want to do, and what they are actually doing.

They WANT to do worldbuilding, with grand epic reality-encompassing scope. They want to tell stories about Gods and Pantheons and Cosmic Wars beyond mortal comprehension because that's what Marvel does and it makes a lot of money.

But what they ARE doing is writing intensely micro-focused character studies told in 15 minute increments every 6 months. It just doesn't work.

Plus, Sylvanas shooting an arrow at the Jailer exceeds Dragon Ball Z levels of power scope difference. Sylvanas going 'Zovaal, noo!' is hilarious considering he's an infinite year old god with the power to unmake all of reality and she is just a single indistinguishable soul among trillions. The fact that they even stood in the same room together defies the cosmic significance of the characters before they even have a chance to make an impact.

[sam86]

The book is strange. From what I understand you are fine with Maiev being Maiev and Illidian being Illidian. Which is a noticeable improvement to Kanack books and a lot of WoW writing where the PCs become others with the same avatar.

the book is 'good' because it doesn't add new stuff, just fix old ones, that's a massive difference
Arthas book for example is considered great but with speed of events problem, events happens slow then jump to another time etc (i know there is one single word in english to describe that, but i can't remember it...)
Illidan i admit has a good time flow in writing, but that's it, the book is shit, its a writer told type x, he just did, Knack for all his hatred did a LOT to wow lore and some are great, Knack created dragon aspect idea for example yet ppl forget that, also his raptor army idea is the epitome of shit writing in warcraft, with how wow is going i wonder if it was his brain idea or blizz telling him just make humans the best ever, since imo wow biggest problem now is how everything in wow exist to show how amazing perfect humans (of wow universe) are
tldr: book is just recap of old events without add new ones, hence why it is 'ok'

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From what I understand, Golden is disliked whenever she has to tie in lore that is not settled. People seemed to like Rise of the Horde, not so much can be said about her later works.

because Rise of Horde delve in past, doesn't add new lore
in general old lore is accepted, specially pre-tbc warcraft lore, we liked her old books, but new ones started to pile
for example prelude to cata is great book imo, but it add Aggra which is one of least liked wow characters, making entire Thrall world shaman arc hated, now add to it how later she forgot how she wrote Garrosh gorehowl axe mini story making it irrelevant, even if it was important to build his character, now add to it shoving hated ideas like feminazi, how Sylvanas after over 20 years in warcraft universe suddenly noticed she has tits and is proud to be a woman leader, a line she NEVER even hinted to think about for over 20 years, and she is leading Forsaken since 2003, and so on
Her bad is starting to pile up and her good is diminishing, she started great, hate how she is now, I still consider Rise of the Horde one of best warcraft books ever, i even recommended it to non-wow players since it was imo a great story

[masterjc]

That's factually correct. Garrosh is a weakling with daddy issues at its core.
He is the sad bully who is angry at the world because he feels weak.

Even after eating the garbage rest of an old god and ending in a form his own father would have spit on :


He kept his stupid "DiDuN NoFfIn wR0Ng" pathetic line.

Owning your mistake is what makes someone strong. Doubling down on idiot just makes you a fool.

You may not like it, but that's how he is and was written. Sure we can debate the quality of the story telling, but it's still the actual canon story.
It's ok to not like things. But don't be a Garrosh, don't get mad at everything you don't like...

agree about garrosh

jaina could be solved much better
especially during WoD and Legion

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

the book is 'good' because it doesn't add new stuff, just fix old ones, that's a massive difference
Arthas book for example is considered great but with speed of events problem, events happens slow then jump to another time etc (i know there is one single word in english to describe that, but i can't remember it...)
Illidan i admit has a good time flow in writing, but that's it, the book is shit, its a writer told type x, he just did, Knack for all his hatred did a LOT to wow lore and some are great, Knack created dragon aspect idea for example yet ppl forget that, also his raptor army idea is the epitome of shit writing in warcraft, with how wow is going i wonder if it was his brain idea or blizz telling him just make humans the best ever, since imo wow biggest problem now is how everything in wow exist to show how amazing perfect humans (of wow universe) are
tldr: book is just recap of old events without add new ones, hence why it is 'ok'

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because Rise of Horde delve in past, doesn't add new lore
in general old lore is accepted, specially pre-tbc warcraft lore, we liked her old books, but new ones started to pile
for example prelude to cata is great book imo, but it add Aggra which is one of least liked wow characters, making entire Thrall world shaman arc hated, now add to it how later she forgot how she wrote Garrosh gorehowl axe mini story making it irrelevant, even if it was important to build his character, now add to it shoving hated ideas like feminazi, how Sylvanas after over 20 years in warcraft universe suddenly noticed she has tits and is proud to be a woman leader, a line she NEVER even hinted to think about for over 20 years, and she is leading Forsaken since 2003, and so on
Her bad is starting to pile up and her good is diminishing, she started great, hate how she is now, I still consider Rise of the Horde one of best warcraft books ever, i even recommended it to non-wow players since it was imo a great story

What is this raptor army ? First time I've read about it.

[baskev]

I stumbled upon this interview from Christie Golden upon characters like Garrosh and Jaina. It perfectly shows on what the writers think is so out of touch with the portrayal ingame.

Full interview: https://www.engadget.com/2012-08-21-...ie-golden.html



Apparently Garrosh has a weak core, and his opinions change on the moment. He is not headstrong and stubborn. He is very weak and influenceable.

Where as Jaina:



Yes, as you see, Jaina has a very strong core. She does not change moods or opinion as often.

This was an interview during MoP.
This was during a time where Jaina had to be stopped from flooding Orgrimmar, where she murdered innocent Blood Elves in Dalaran.
This was "stable Jaina" that ruined peace talks between the Alliance and the Blood Elves.

And yeah, at that time we didn't know how headstrong Garrosh was going to be. But he doesn't seem very weak considering his last cinematic.

This perfectly portrays how out of touch some writers are. How does this even happen? Just how?
Maybe Blizzard needs to come to face with how delusional the writers are with the portrayal of characters presented ingame.

This is so fucking bad.

And it clearly shows you have no idea how the writing process for games and movies go. Yes bad sub plots and writing excist.

But the direction of the story is never in the hand of the writers. Always in the studio/lead dev etc.
A writer can write expert very well written stories. But if their bosses come in a say: nope we want, x,y,z to happen they can write the best they can. But stil write themselves into a corner.

So we do not know if that happend hear. So you can not just say its 1 way or the other. This is what people like ashealvsbfc do. Forget the whole facts, context etc etc.

And for MoP:

Garrosh: yeah, everything that happend during MoP triggered him. like a non white casting in movies does for a certain crowd. He did not show constraint.

As for Jaina: Yes and no. She did kill some, but most where imprissond or asked to leave. And this was after the bombing of theramore and using dalaran to attack darnassus. ( yes alliance used troops that was bad of her 2).
And yes she was more stable. Because at thunder isle she was able to put most of it aside and work with the sun reavers. A thing you forget to mention.
Garrosh ate/absorbed a old god hearth.....or whatever that thing was.

So....

[ohwell]

Having a strong core doesn't mean you can't change, or admit to your own mistakes - it means that regardless of what happens to you that core remains intact and a strong influence over who you are as a person. Jaina prior to Cata was always depicted as a sensitive and insightful soul who favored creativity over brutality. She changed somewhat following the destruction of her home as well as the murder of her people and friends, but the same core traits she had always possessed eventually evened her out and made it so she could eventually overcome that trauma and resume being who she was, changed but still essentially the same person.

Contrast this with Garrosh, who's introduced as being a pathetic shell of an Orc who continually mopes and groans about the actions of his father until Thrall relates Grom's heroic death. He then does a complete 180 and becomes an entirely new person, overly headstrong and unreasonably boastful. He then proceeds to question his new father-figure Thrall at every turn, basically acting like a complete git throughout WotLK, and on becoming Warchief tolerates no criticism and surrounds himself with yes-men like Malkorok who kowtow to his whims like sycophants.

So yes, in that vein Garrosh is essentially weak and Jaina is essentially strong - he refuses any and all culpability for his many mistakes, and ends up lodged deep in WoW's version of hell as equally and stupidly unrepentant. Jaina, on the other hand, acknowledges her mistakes and the criticism levied at her and stops her descent into zealotry to eventually level out and return to herself.

I wouldn't call Garrosh's change an actual change of his persona though. The Garrosh you first meet isn't really him as it's all the thoughts the others thrust upon him from the reputation that Grom had in Outland. Once free of that burden he was actually able to be his own person. That's not really "changing" in the sense that Jaina constantly has.

[Rafoel]

That's factually correct. Garrosh is a weakling with daddy issues at its core.
He is the sad bully who is angry at the world because he feels weak.

Even after eating the garbage rest of an old god and ending in a form his own father would have spit on :

He kept his stupid "DiDuN NoFfIn wR0Ng" pathetic line.

Owning your mistake is what makes someone strong. Doubling down on idiot just makes you a fool.

You may not like it, but that's how he is and was written. Sure we can debate the quality of the story telling, but it's still the actual canon story.
It's ok to not like things. But don't be a Garrosh, don't get mad at everything you don't like...

Garrosh was written as a copy of his dad. It was a way of reintroducing Grom (2nd most popular horde character) into the story without actually resurrecting him.

When we meet Garrosh for the first time in Outland, he is a total nihilist and doesn't want to do anything - that's because, thinking that his father's bloodlust caused him to be doomed, and considering himself (truthfully) to be the same as his dad, he thinks he is destined to fall. The 180 degree turn happens when he gets told by Thrall that Grom actually saved the orcs, not doomed them. With this, Garrosh begins to consider himself as being destined to RISE. He becomes the most prideful character in lore. Already in WotLK prepatch he challenges Thrall for Warchief position, believing himself to be the best possible leader. This pride eventually somehow extends to his entire race, causing MoP.

Anybody who thinks Garrosh "felt weak" at any point of his life doesn't understand his character at all. Initially he was even afraid of his own strength, thinking that he was unable to use it for the good.



On the other hand, Jaina was written as weak from the very beginning in WC3. Her entire character arc is about being thrown into situations that she can't find solutions for. First, having to choose between Arthas and Uther in Stratholme. Then, having to choose between continuing the war with orcs and allying with them. Then, having to choose between these orcs and her own father. Each of these choices she regretted a lot later in life. She never actually decided whether these choices were good or bad (as seen in BFA questline, she only eventually learnt to forgive herself and accept that she can't always make the right choice). Jaina doesn;t have any "strong core", over the years she changed her allegiances and motives constantly, more than basically any other character. Her decisions are emotion-based.


So yeah, OP's example is a good one. Writers really have to be completely detached from the story to write such bullshit about characters they are supposed to be experts about.

[geco]

the book is 'good' because it doesn't add new stuff, just fix old ones, that's a massive difference
Arthas book for example is considered great but with speed of events problem, events happens slow then jump to another time etc (i know there is one single word in english to describe that, but i can't remember it...)
Illidan i admit has a good time flow in writing, but that's it, the book is shit, its a writer told type x, he just did, Knack for all his hatred did a LOT to wow lore and some are great, Knack created dragon aspect idea for example yet ppl forget that, also his raptor army idea is the epitome of shit writing in warcraft, with how wow is going i wonder if it was his brain idea or blizz telling him just make humans the best ever, since imo wow biggest problem now is how everything in wow exist to show how amazing perfect humans (of wow universe) are
tldr: book is just recap of old events without add new ones, hence why it is 'ok'

That it doesn't have orcs and humans forced into it adds a lot of points to the book.

The same even though it is just Ok or garbage it must be the best or the second best of the Kaldorer Books (Because there is one that does not read). Being that the others tend to be something like "ignore this book because it has nothing to do with what happens in the Wow".
But being that even Cronicas kicks them quite off camera.

[username993720]

Jaina in MoP: "Varian, dismantle the Horde".


Jaina in BfA: "Thrall: What's different this time? Jaina: We are".


We can all see where this is going.

Garrosh in WoD: "All i did, i did for the Horde".


Garrosh in Shadowlands: "For the Horde!"


They decided to kill off this character right away.

Now, does anyone have any doubt about World of Warcraft becoming World of Peacecraft?