Maybe the problem are the writers

[Minikin]

Buddy it was just the rotting heart of the Old God, I'd like to see Garrosh try to absorb the mountain of flesh that is an unleashed Old God. OP is purposefully misinterpreting what happened, Garrosh didn't absorb an Old God but what was essentially the carcass of one.

Plus I mean Blizzard can say that Garrosh "controlled the whispers" all they want, the fact is that the game shows otherwise. As soon as he starts showering in Old God juice he grows increasingly more insane and unhinged, like he literally screams nonsense like "the world will burn muahahaha", that doesn't seem very stable and in control to me.

In all fairness L'ura wasn't exactly at the height of its power when alleria consumed it.

[ohwell]

Saying that "the Garrosh you first meet isn't really him" is highly debatable as well know little of his characterization beforehand, save that he was a victim of the Red Pox and seemingly spent his adolescence as a sickly and frail Orcling. Even on recovery from the pox he was described as "tormented by tales of his father," and he "feared he would lead the Mag'har down a dark path." Suffice to say, it seems mopey and whiny Garrosh had a much longer tenure than the fierce warrior we see after Thrall's first visit to Garadar. And to quote Garrosh himself:

I also wouldn't say that Garrosh "was never his own person," simply that the person he was is essentially weak, dependent on the approval of others, and so deep into his own delusions that he fractured the Horde he was supposed to lead, became a tainted abomination, and wound up damned to WoW's version of hell for his troubles. Jaina on the other hand was scarred by trauma, endured a period of volatile instability, but eventually evened out and became a stronger, wiser version of her original self. Garrosh refused to accept culpability for his own actions even in the deepest pit of the Shadowlands, whereas Jaina experienced a more positive growth and actually addressed and overcame her demons. That is what having a strong core of self is.

I mean that's not taking into account the fact that seemingly everyone around him is telling him these things. I mean if Thrall had to tell the story of the orcs' salvation, then more than likely it's a story that hadn't reached Nagrand which means Grom was a boogeyman to them more than anything. Historically in the real world, the children of traitors, murders, and other criminals haven't been treated too fairly and often judged by the actions of their parents. When said children are beaten down every day by the fact, you get what you see in Nagrand. Claiming Jaina was scarred by trauma when hers was endured at a lesser developmental time in her life whereas Garrosh was raised thinking he was no good is a bit silly. I mean even still this is coming from someone who already let her own father die to protect people she had known far less. Losing Theramore should have been far more endurable than it was.

[Aucald]

I mean that's not taking into account the fact that seemingly everyone around him is telling him these things. I mean if Thrall had to tell the story of the orcs' salvation, then more than likely it's a story that hadn't reached Nagrand which means Grom was a boogeyman to them more than anything. Historically in the real world, the children of traitors, murders, and other criminals haven't been treated too fairly and often judged by the actions of their parents. When said children are beaten down every day by the fact, you get what you see in Nagrand. Claiming Jaina was scarred by trauma when hers was endured at a lesser developmental time in her life whereas Garrosh was raised thinking he was no good is a bit silly. I mean even still this is coming from someone who already let her own father die to protect people she had known far less. Losing Theramore should have been far more endurable than it was.

There's no evidence that the citizens of Garadar treated younger Garrosh in such a way, though; they did make him their leader after all, even if he spent the majority of his tenure despairing the fact. Geyah outrights exhorts the PC's to try to show Garrosh acts of heroism to try to shake him out of his funk, to no avail. It's not really possible to compare traumas in the way you attempt above, so I'm not saying that either Garrosh or Jaina empirically "had it worse" than the other, only that they reacted to and integrated said trauma in different ways - Garrosh dysfunctionally, and Jaina successfully. Jaina "let" Daelin be killed because Daelin's feckless warmongering was a threat to Theramore, not just because Daelin threatened Thrall and Rexxar. Daelin would've happily broke Theramore's people against Thrall's Horde because he couldn't let go of the Second War, and she did so with great reluctance and obviously great pain as we later see.

[Minikin]

What is "biased" in the OP? He is quoting one of the main writers in the staff, with source and everything. What should it include in order to not be considered "biased"?

@Rexosaurus is correct. The writers suck and the OP provided more than enough proof of that. But OP diluted his credibility (ironically enough) by saying things like "Garrosh controlled Y'Shaarj itself" or that "he was winning the war".

Everyone knows Garrosh was done dirty. But OP clearly has a bias. Or worse. Is uninformed.

[sam86]

-snip-

if u want to count, that's 3 examples not just 2, and he flat out said that half of team planned out to make him heroic, while other half who was developing MoP stuck to the older plan of just make him evil
so pls don't try to explain it in way opposite to the creator himself, this is like saying that pruning is good, while blizz flat out admit they fucked up in pruning in BFA and it was its biggest flaw
And being hothead isn't being evil, in MoP Garrosh became flat out racist and evil, to degree he recruited enemies of horde just to fill his numbers (Old Horde if u didn't know is enemy faction to playable horde since pre-wow itself), who were the backbone of his MoP army

She's been a "contractor" for Warcraft lore & stories since 2001.

they still don't, check interview about the pre-SL book, blizz gave clear order u must make Anduin show some evil in him, the minor details is up to writers but general guidelines they have no control over
As for who decides that, my bet is Danasur right now, because being a 'leader' is usually just be a figurehead to get attacked in wow development, Ion as player beliefs of improving wow is almost exact opposite of Ion the developer, Ion the player is strong believer of hardcore raiding and zero bullshit AP grind, Ion as developer is borrow system RNG lover

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That removes Golden from the equation and that makes me think that before the storm it was written without enough information or worse without being clear about SW.

the usual...
Blizz had clear idea and plan with wow up to MoP i believe, then not anymore, they never even imagined having wow active after all those exp (if they did, i bet Wrath would been far later)
Jailer is worst villain they ever created, he is shipped to be supposed as evil if not greater than Sargeras, but Sargeras is built as ultimate evil since wc1, which was released 1994, we are now supposed to forget about Sargeras and believe that Jailer is greater danger who can craft realities and change them? At least build him over 2 exps, not far him out of nowhere and bam he is here and EBIL
Did jailer have potential? imo no, he is boring and generic, but even if he did, they fucked him up with no hope to fix with rush B mentality

[Aucald]

if u want to count, that's 3 examples not just 2, and he flat out said that half of team planned out to make him heroic, while other half who was developing MoP stuck to the older plan of just make him evil

so pls don't try to explain it in way opposite to the creator himself, this is like saying that pruning is good, while blizz flat out admit they fucked up in pruning in BFA and it was its biggest flaw

And being hothead isn't being evil, in MoP Garrosh became flat out racist and evil, to degree he recruited enemies of horde just to fill his numbers (Old Horde if u didn't know is enemy faction to playable horde since pre-wow itself), who were the backbone of his MoP army

I already acknowledged the miscommunication and mistake of the various writers in Cata (although Afrasiabi mainly blames himself as befits one of the lead designers at the time). That miscommunication and mischaracterization aside, you're trying to claim a handful of events should define Garrosh as opposed to the greater bulk of his villainy throughout MoP, Cata, and WoD - it's like saying a few outliers are of greater importance than 90% of the other material. No one said the writers were incapable of error, but those errors aren't really tantamount to making Garrosh heroic, strong, or anything other than what he was.

Garrosh was always rather racist as well, like his "solution" to the Horde's logistical issues in the Borean Tundra during WotLK which involved wiping Valiance Keep off the map (and mind, this was when the Horde and Alliance were still loosely allied against the Scourge before the Wrathgate incident). He also makes no bones of his stance on the Alliance as of the comic Showdown! involving the peace summit at Theramore (chronologically prior to both Cata and WotLK), in which he says the Horde should just wipe the Alliance out and take their resources by force as opposed to relying on trade or statecraft. The comic was penned well before Cata was even released (April 15, 2009 vs. December 7, 2010).

[Soon-TM]

@Rexosaurus is correct. The writers suck and the OP provided more than enough proof of that. But OP diluted his credibility (ironically enough) by saying things like "Garrosh controlled Y'Shaarj itself" or that "he was winning the war".

Everyone knows Garrosh was done dirty. But OP clearly has a bias. Or worse. Is uninformed.

I thought that OP was making a difference between the source and his/her particular take on it, which (s)he is entitled to, even if you disagree. But at all rates, Golden's statements are... revealing.

[Icelin]

I can critique too, even tho some people don't like hearing it.

Jaina flips her personality every other day that ends in Y. And honestly I didn't expect anything different from Golden. After Rise of the Lich King she really started shilling for Jaina in a horrible ass way.

Like the case with Jaina I am on repeat about. Tbh I don't think Golden pushed for Jaina to become Elsa. Methinks Blizzard probably wanted to push that image. (I think sometimes Blizzard wants to push a lot of stuff. I could be wrong about this and that could be some of the people there. But how do I know? I don't.) I could be totally wrong. Yes, Jaina got proper development. (Which a lot of characters lack..) Yes I am tired of her atm. (BFA Alliance story revolved completely around her and she is still everywhere) I would like her to backburn a bit. So maybe just maybe other characters can get some proper development too. (Imagine having another heavy Thrall expansion right after Cata. Not asking for them to die, just backburn.. people might eventually call these characters out again. I know I did with Thrall. I'm calling out Khadgar lately too.) That doesn't change the fact the story we got with her was a Disney rip off. From story, to physical appearance and I have no issues calling them out on that.

People want to blame the writers but I am just guessing.. Blizzard has their own image/message of what they want to push. (from time to time) Also how Sylvanas ended up so inconsistent. Only they know there. So potentially they have to make do what with they are given. So I feel it can be a bit unfair to call out people on their skills there.

Oh and speaking of characters that just completely poof. People have mentioned to me where is Durak. Why isn't there an Orc teenager rampaging warrior yet. Whatever happened to these characters? Who knows they don't utilize them. There ya go boys and girls a non-depressed orc.

[username993720]

Imo, the game should become World of Peacecraft.

This is the entire premise of the game.

Imo, they should stay in their lane and write cookie cutter stories about good guys and good orcs vs the giant soulless army commanded by whatever flavor of the Devil we're up against this week. They don't have the writing bona fides to handle anything more complicated or nuanced than that because they suck.

What you're suggesting is to make it into just another game. No need for factions or different races, because we all get along.

[Minikin]

I thought that OP was making a difference between the source and his/her particular take on it, which (s)he is entitled to, even if you disagree. But at all rates, Golden's statements are... revealing.

I know and OP had everything going for them until they went off about how big daddy Rosh started bending a cosmic power to his will or that he was on the precipice of victory.

[sam86]

you're trying to claim a handful of events should define Garrosh as .

i'm trying to claim out of 3 exp Garrosh played a major role, 1 of them he was acting more heroic, well anti-heroic but NOT flat out evil, wrath he was hothead idiot, not really evil but still for sure no honor either, cata he actually cared for horde and made horde win lot of skirmishes, in mop he just became racist, and bomb theramore while he just threw a general for bombing druids, and kidnapped civilians (in literally paradox way just to make him look more EVIL, he had to time travel to kidnap them or something), insulting his own troops, and flat out abandon the horde he actually leads and cares for and replace it with old horde faction
his anti-alliance isn't equal to anti-horde views, heck horde and alliance hate each others since wow started, horde however pre-cata was so united that troll talk orcish for help and Vol'jin was orgrimmar faction

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

didn't notice that, that makes this book way better than i thought
and how did blizz let that? nothing about any hot elf fall in love with a perfect human as usual? is that a blizz book?

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i think it was Night of Dragon book by Knack, tldr: Rhonin the red-head mage leads a raptor army to attack Grim Batol, the writing is way too cringy and horrible that i suggest just read summary at wowpedia better

Seriously ? I know Knack has an absurd love for war beasts (hence the Magnataurs in Wolfheart which were presented as near-invincible until the Worgens and Varian's arrival, which was just ridiculous) but this is bad fanfiction level of writing.

[Super Dickmann]

Seriously ? I know Knack has an absurd love for war beasts (hence the Magnataurs in Wolfheart which were presented as near-invincible until the Worgens and Varian's arrival, which was just ridiculous) but this is bad fanfiction level of writing.

Bad fanfiction writing? From the guy who made his self-insert go back in time to teach Illidan how to use magic and bang a hitherto unknown third Windrunner? Perish the thought.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Bad fanfiction writing? From the guy who made his self-insert go back in time to teach Illidan how to use magic and bang a hitherto unknown third Windrunner? Perish the thought.

I prefer to ignore any time travel when it comes to the War of Ancients because it's just too ridiculous to have Rhonin, Krasus and even Broxigar sent back in time like that and without any encounter with the Bronze Dragonflight before or the Bronze dragons having judged them to be the right guys for time travel either.

[Bloomer]

This is false. Alleria Windrunner controlled not one but two Void Demi-Gods, one of which was a Void Naaru, the Naaru being the Light counterpart of the Old Gods.

And Garrosh didn't control an Old God, he controlled the feeble remnant of an Old God.

Why do you post in every thread and just try to mention how great and awesome Alleria is? She isn't and everything you said is probably wrong.

[Super Dickmann]

I prefer to ignore any time travel when it comes to the War of Ancients because it's just too ridiculous to have Rhonin, Krasus and even Broxigar sent back in time like that and without any encounter with the Bronze Dragonflight before or the Bronze dragons having judged them to be the right guys for time travel either.

Time travel is always a mess. The best use of time travel in Warcraft is probably the Caverns of Time because it's a transparent excuse to relive popular moments. I'd put Warlords in second place, which says a lot, since it is embarrassed to use its own time travel and quickly nixes all elements. All of WoD's time travel is just an overwrought contrivance in order to make use of a version of Draenor and its characters and so you don't have to think about it too much. The worst time travel is the Knaak stuff and everything relating to Thrall going back in time to steal the Dragon Soul in Cata.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Time travel is always a mess. The best use of time travel in Warcraft is probably the Caverns of Time because it's a transparent excuse to relive popular moments. I'd put Warlords in second place, which says a lot, since it is embarrassed to use its own time travel and quickly nixes all elements. All of WoD's time travel is just an overwrought contrivance in order to make use of a version of Draenor and its characters and so you don't have to think about it too much. The worst time travel is the Knaak stuff and everything relating to Thrall going back in time to steal the Dragon Soul in Cata.

That last always make me cringe, especially how it was totally stated that Deathwing made the Dragon Soul to be unable of affecting him.

[DingDongKing]

-snip-

At least the Illidan book was fun and not some odd YA book - which to be honest every Jaina chapter written by Golden is like.

I remember reading the Shattering and Jaina was swooning over someone else or getting all dreamy over some claptrap or the other.

And I'm like...who is your audience for this nonsense?

[OrcsRLame]

This is the entire premise of the game.



What you're suggesting is to make it into just another game. No need for factions or different races, because we all get along.

No what I'm suggesting is more TBC and LK, (Alliance and Horde were mostly at peace.) and less Cata/MoP/BFA.

The story only ever rises above dogshit into below average when the faction war is basically nonexistent.

[Overlordd]

No what I'm suggesting is more TBC and LK, (Alliance and Horde were mostly at peace.) and less Cata/MoP/BFA.

The story only ever rises above dogshit into below average when the faction war is basically nonexistent.

Alliance and Horde were not at peace. Skirmishes still broke out.
Tbc added a battleground and world PvP captures.
WotLK added 2 battlegrounds and a world pvp zone.

What are you even talking about? What peace?