Maybe the problem are the writers

[username993720]

No what I'm suggesting is more TBC and LK, (Alliance and Horde were mostly at peace.) and less Cata/MoP/BFA.

The story only ever rises above dogshit into below average when the faction war is basically nonexistent.

Well, it is nonexistent in the Shadowlands.

[Aucald]

i'm trying to claim out of 3 exp Garrosh played a major role, 1 of them he was acting more heroic, well anti-heroic but NOT flat out evil, wrath he was hothead idiot, not really evil but still for sure no honor either, cata he actually cared for horde and made horde win lot of skirmishes, in mop he just became racist, and bomb theramore while he just threw a general for bombing druids, and kidnapped civilians (in literally paradox way just to make him look more EVIL, he had to time travel to kidnap them or something), insulting his own troops, and flat out abandon the horde he actually leads and cares for and replace it with old horde faction
his anti-alliance isn't equal to anti-horde views, heck horde and alliance hate each others since wow started, horde however pre-cata was so united that troll talk orcish for help and Vol'jin was orgrimmar faction

Garrosh played a major role in a *lot* more than three experiences, though - that's pretty much to the heart of what I'm saying. And it's not as if his first outings were heroic or what have you, either. Garrosh also lost most major engagements in Cata, he was beaten in Ashenvale (Wolfheart) and the Barrens campaign was essentially a statement. He only won against Theramore through the deployment of an arcane nuke. Not to mention his Mak'gora with Cairne was precipitated by Garrosh mocking the death of Horde druids, including Cairne's good friend Hamuul Runetotem who was thought dead at that time. Miscommunication and out-of-step narrative development gave Garrosh a few shining moments of not being a tyrannical dick, but even those are few and far between weighed against his other actions during WotLK and Cata.

[sighy]

Alliance and Horde were not at peace. Skirmishes still broke out.
Tbc added a battleground and world PvP captures.
WotLK added 2 battlegrounds and a world pvp zone.

What are you even talking about? What peace?

WotLK did have faction conflict and rivalry, especially in the latter half after Wrathgate. MoP is also broadly regarded as the best of the expansions, in retrospective besides the shaky start, even tho quite the few argued that Garrosh having hsi xenophobic dial suddenly turned up to 15 out of 10 was rather odd. That's kind of the core issue, with these faction war narratives. One of the Horde leaders is always used as a scapegoat to cheapen the whole experience and completely take a way any weight from the faction's attitudes developping.

The best faction war narrative was likely in the Cataclysm, where both factions were looking for allies, whilst tackling mutual animosity and the big threat leading to quite the few very good character moments. Ashenvale, Stonetalon, Silverpine, Western Plaguelands, Twilight Highlands, Redridge Mountains, Southern Barrens and so fort. Unlike MoP and BfA there wasn't any absolution to be had, there wasn't any character to take the bullet so the factions can be friends again and thus remove and any tangible weight from all the stuff that happend. And it takes an objective narrative bias, in regards to who was in the wrong, which effectively kills any war narrative, where you have to tell both sides of the story. Noíbody was really sincerely invested in BfA past the moment Saurfang threw in the towel, because it was obvious that Sylvanas would become the scapegoat, Anduin would give some speech in Orgrimmar, Tyrande would whine a bit and that's it folks everything is great now! Let's pursue the scapegoat to some other world!


The Alliance didn't realy have an interesting internal narrative since Onyxia bit the dust, in vanilla. Outside of that every interesting thread was either resolved instantly or left hangig leading them to becoming a bunch of cardboard cutouts, who never really did anything proactive, outside of Greymane and Admiral Rogers going explicitely rogue a couple times, which got the total response of Greymane being denied a good boy treat, from Anduin.

[Syegfryed]

Yes, as you see, Jaina has a very strong core. She does not change moods or opinion as often.

This was an interview during MoP.
This was during a time where Jaina had to be stopped from flooding Orgrimmar, where she murdered innocent Blood Elves in Dalaran.
This was "stable Jaina" that ruined peace talks between the Alliance and the Blood Elves.

And yeah, at that time we didn't know how headstrong Garrosh was going to be. But he doesn't seem very weak considering his last cinematic.

This perfectly portrays how out of touch some writers are. How does this even happen? Just how?
Maybe Blizzard needs to come to face with how delusional the writers are with the portrayal of characters presented ingame.

This is so fucking bad.

On top of being bad, the writers are also totally biased to the characters they like and do things like that, but the problem lies where the devs favorites are not the playerbase favorites, things like that happen.

Garrosh never controlled an Old God. Y'Shaarj had been long dead up to that point. He utilized the power coming from the heart. It was a power-up. No controlling.

The old god could still corrupt and control things, evena s a heart, and Kosak confirmed that garrosh was not controlled or even affected by the corruption, he controlled like a tool a hammer, thats why he reverted back to his former self, unlike others.

And, that was completely different from "anime level of power" like Varian had with the buff of logosh with no downsides

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Garrosh played a major role in a *lot* more than three experiences, though - that's pretty much to the heart of what I'm saying. And it's not as if his first outings were heroic or what have you, either. Garrosh also lost most major engagements in Cata, he was beaten in Ashenvale (Wolfheart) and the Barrens campaign was essentially a statement. He only won against Theramore through the deployment of an arcane nuke. Not to mention his Mak'gora with Cairne was precipitated by Garrosh mocking the death of Horde druids, including Cairne's good friend Hamuul Runetotem who was thought dead at that time. Miscommunication and out-of-step narrative development gave Garrosh a few shining moments of not being a tyrannical dick, but even those are few and far between weighed against his other actions during WotLK and Cata.

Lost some, won other, his winnings is what made the horde stable again and not so chocked by alliance forces. He lost in ashenvale due to amssive plot armor from the alliance with Varian coming with anime powers.

He would have not needed to bomb theramore if Baine himself didn't had commit treason to inform the attack to Jaina, who could be prepared. Besides, why using a nuke, that he created in his own strategy is something bad? now soldiers are bad because they can only by using weapons?

The mak'gora was completely Cairne fault, blind by rage slapping his own warchief in the face with no respect, the mak'gora was to make Cairne step down, but he still refused.

The excuse of "Miscommunication is an awful one, Garrosh acted completely in-character and consistent from wtlk to cata(which was not a tyranical dick), the only Miscommunication was they turning him 180° into orc hittler, doing everything they could to make him look like an evil cartoon villain.

[Aucald]

Lost some, won other, his winnings is what made the horde stable again and not so chocked by alliance forces. He lost in ashenvale due to amssive plot armor from the alliance with Varian coming with anime powers.

He would have not needed to bomb theramore if Baine himself didn't had commit treason to inform the attack to Jaina, who could be prepared. Besides, why using a nuke, that he created in his own strategy is something bad? now soldiers are bad because they can only by using weapons?

The mak'gora was completely Cairne fault, blind by rage slapping his own warchief in the face with no respect, the mak'gora was to make Cairne step down, but he still refused.

The excuse of "Miscommunication is an awful one, Garrosh acted completely in-character and consistent from wtlk to cata(which was not a tyranical dick), the only Miscommunication was they turning him 180° into orc hittler, doing everything they could to make him look like an evil cartoon villain.

You're mixing your Doylist and Watsonian perspectives in an attempt to argue an entirely Watsonian point - the point is that Garrosh lost in the story. The only engagement he actually won was Theramore, and that using tactics that split his base wide and started his own eventual downfall. Varian is also far from alone in terms of WoW characters using "anime powers," Garrosh does it a few times himself like leaping across airships and in his duel with Taran Zhu.

Garrosh always planned to nuke Theramore, as well - the plan was set in motion well before Baine's act of treason with the theft of the Focusing Iris and the engineering work needed to turn it into a mana bomb. The majority of the Horde itself considered the use of the mana bomb horrific, especially given the legacy of mana bombs and their use back in TBC.

Cairne declared the Mak'gora because of Garrosh's warmongering and deep disrespect for Hamuul's perceived death in Ashenvale, Garrosh deserved no respect and received none. More's the pity that Magatha intervened and we would've been spared Garrosh much earlier than his death in WoD.

Garrosh acted like an idiot throughout most of WotLK, trying to start a war with the Alliance at the very doorstep of the Lich King in Borean Tundra, acting like an idiot before the Ulduar campaign and preventing an accord to stop Yogg-Saron, as well as his conduct at the Argent Tournament (continually questioning and being insubordinate to the Warchief).

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

It's also really forced how Malfurion Stormrage and most Night Elven druids didn't take part in the defense of Ashenvale against Horde aggressions until BFA (where the NE also suffered from the story being forced in their disfavor), as well as the fact that the Night Elves who were capable of holding their own against many greater threats such as the Qiraji or the Burning Legion were unable to handle some Magnataurs, as well as Tyrande not using any offensive ability other than blinding with light, nor did use guerilla against the Horde in WOW with them using their natural speed and agility, knowledge of the lands and ability to disappear with shadowmeld to hide, ambush and harass Horde forces, and retreat and hide again in their forrests before Horde forces could react properly.

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And that's not counting how half of their forces were gone based on dubious and unverified informations based on a staged brawl, that Tyrande, Maiev and Jarod Shadowsong and most of their allies including Worgens, Draenei, Chimaeras, Furbolgs, Mountain Giants, Fae Dragons and Wildkins were absent during the War of Thorns.

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And that's nothing compared to a couple of catapults far away on a distant shore being supposed to set fire on a titanic tree blessed by the Aspects with some fire projectiles, with ordinary living trees being far harder to put on fire than it looks like, and lakes, rivers and many magic users being present on that tree.

[OrcsRLame]

Alliance and Horde were not at peace. Skirmishes still broke out.
Tbc added a battleground and world PvP captures.
WotLK added 2 battlegrounds and a world pvp zone.

What are you even talking about? What peace?

Don't be disingenuous. None of the in game story events focused on faction conflict in TBC or LK. How many cutscenes or quests focused on the faction war in LK? The Garrosh vs Varian cutscene and a few quests in Icecrown and Grizzly Hills? How many focused on the faction war in BFA? Hundreds of quests and the vast majority of cutscenes.

Wow is at its best when the faction conflict is at most way way in the background.

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Well, it is nonexistent in the Shadowlands.

This is true and in that sense it's a step in the right direction even if Shadowlands is utter dogshit.

The issue though is that we're still dealing with the fallout of the BFA arc. Shadowlands is a direct continuation of BFA. The story will improve at least a bit when we actually get to the next arc that is not predicated on faction conflict.

[jlrm365]

*is the writers

No.

Infracted.

[username993720]

The issue though is that we're still dealing with the fallout of the BFA arc. Shadowlands is a direct continuation of BFA. The story will improve at least a bit when we actually get to the next arc that is not predicated on faction conflict.

Keeping dreaming.
As long as they keep writing the story as being lovey-dovey, then it's not gonna go anywhere.

[Newname1234567890]

Blizzard always have a blind spot for Jaina. They seem to miss she's a terrible leader

[OrcsRLame]

Keeping dreaming.
As long as they keep writing the story as being lovey-dovey, then it's not gonna go anywhere.

Why do you say that? The story got way way worse when it started focusing on faction conflict. Cata and MoP were pure faction conflict. WoD was predicated on MoP's story. Legion was okay-ish. BFA was more faction conflict and Shadowlands is a continuation of BFA.

The only expansions where the story was slightly better than dogshit were TBC, LK and Legion. All 3 of those were expansions where the faction conflict was practically nonexistent.

The expansions that were the worst story wise were the Alliance vs Horde expansions, (Cata, MoP, BFA.) or the expansions that were sequels to Alliance vs Horde expansions, (WoD, Shadowlands.)

So why do you think the game is gonna be better with a focus on the storytelling style of the bad expansions, but it would somehow be worse with focusing on the storytelling style of the good expansions?

[username993720]

Why do you say that? The story got way way worse when it started focusing on faction conflict. Cata and MoP were pure faction conflict. WoD was predicated on MoP's story. Legion was okay-ish. BFA was more faction conflict and Shadowlands is a continuation of BFA.

The only expansions where the story was slightly better than dogshit were TBC, LK and Legion. All 3 of those were expansions where the faction conflict was practically nonexistent.

The expansions that were the worst story wise were the Alliance vs Horde expansions, (Cata, MoP, BFA.) or the expansions that were sequels to Alliance vs Horde expansions, (WoD, Shadowlands.)

So why do you think the game is gonna be better with a focus on the storytelling style of the bad expansions, but it would somehow be worse with focusing on the storytelling style of the good expansions?

Potentially good storylines. Bad executions. They all come to a closure of being friends again.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

*Makes post about maybe the writers are the problem*

*Proceeds to misunderstand the very concept of core values*

Like I can respect Garrosh for sticking to his guns at the end, but being headstrong by itself is not a good thing. Oh he followed through, but the problem is that he just didn't have a solid idea of what the Horde even was, because he didn't even know himself, and once he veered off to the point he became a monster to his own people, he was too stubborn to acknowledge his mistakes and turn back.

It was his lack of core values that made him unable to check himself and see his mistakes, believing himself right thus shutting out any external feedback. Might only makes right if you win, if you alienate everyone and are unable to defeat them in battle, then you are just a fool.

Please, do not mistake having a strong core with simply being stubborn; that's literally a teenager yelling "It's not a phase Mom this is WHO I AM"

[Ethas]

I stumbled upon this interview from Christie Golden upon characters like Garrosh and Jaina. It perfectly shows on what the writers think is so out of touch with the portrayal ingame.

Full interview: https://www.engadget.com/2012-08-21-...ie-golden.html



Apparently Garrosh has a weak core, and his opinions change on the moment. He is not headstrong and stubborn. He is very weak and influenceable.

Where as Jaina:



Yes, as you see, Jaina has a very strong core. She does not change moods or opinion as often.

This was an interview during MoP.
This was during a time where Jaina had to be stopped from flooding Orgrimmar, where she murdered innocent Blood Elves in Dalaran.
This was "stable Jaina" that ruined peace talks between the Alliance and the Blood Elves.

And yeah, at that time we didn't know how headstrong Garrosh was going to be. But he doesn't seem very weak considering his last cinematic.

This perfectly portrays how out of touch some writers are. How does this even happen? Just how?
Maybe Blizzard needs to come to face with how delusional the writers are with the portrayal of characters presented ingame.

This is so fucking bad.

Because shes been writing housewifes romance books for her entire career. She can’t comprehend what high fantasy is and what character merits are usually portrayed in there.

[Soon-TM]

Blizzard always have a blind spot for Jaina. They seem to miss she's a terrible leader

Same happens for Thrall. There are few in the story who have !@#$ed it up as badly as he has, yet he's still the Green Jesus of good ol' Cata days. Although he's being slowly phased out by Golden Jesus and his cohort of groupies.

[Syegfryed]

You're mixing your Doylist and Watsonian perspectives in an attempt to argue an entirely Watsonian point - the point is that Garrosh lost in the story.

It rly amuses me how you want to say that while the major points against garrosh is how he is a "tyranicall dick" or a "hot head idiot"

Saying "he lost in the story" is like saying most of thr world conquerors "lost in the story" despite massive wins and victories, its just outright downplaying his achievements by bias.

The only engagement he actually won was Theramore, and that using tactics that split his base wide and started his own eventual downfall.

And of course, ignoring the Horde victories against the LK? ignoring how he indeed took victories in other fronts so the horde would not become chocked by the alliance?

And if you read the book, the only people who were against his tactics in theramore was Baine and vol'jin, the people, the common folk, cheered by theramore

Varian is also far from alone in terms of WoW characters using "anime powers," Garrosh does it a few times himself like leaping across airships and in his duel with Taran Zhu.

AThat is not anymore power lv, that is normal for wow standarts, Varian in other hand was infused with wildgod power.

Garrosh always planned to nuke Theramore, as well - the plan was set in motion well before Baine's act of treason with the theft of the Focusing Iris and the engineering work needed to turn it into a mana bomb. The majority of the Horde itself considered the use of the mana bomb horrific, especially given the legacy of mana bombs and their use back in TBC.

If they were abe to take theramore in the first attempt, or if they surrendered, there was no need to the nuke.

Cairne declared the Mak'gora because of Garrosh's warmongering and deep disrespect for Hamuul's perceived death in Ashenvale, Garrosh deserved no respect and received none. More's the pity that Magatha intervened and we would've been spared Garrosh much earlier than his death in WoD.

He challenge him because he tough it was hi, who ordered the attack, and yes he deserved respect, he was warchief.

Garrosh acted like an idiot throughout most of WotLK,

heh

[Aucald]

It rly amuses me how you want to say that while the major points against garrosh is how he is a "tyranicall dick" or a "hot head idiot"

Saying "he lost in the story" is like saying most of thr world conquerors "lost in the story" despite massive wins and victories, its just outright downplaying his achievements by bias.

Being a tyrant and a hothead isn't mutually exclusive with being a loser - history is replete with examples of tyrants who lose everything.

Garrosh had few decisive victories, many defeats, and his stupidity ultimately led to his capture, exile, and death on a sad replica of his homeworld. All in all, Garrosh was a loser of epic proportions.

And of course, ignoring the Horde victories against the LK? ignoring how he indeed took victories in other fronts so the horde would not become chocked by the alliance?

And if you read the book, the only people who were against his tactics in theramore was Baine and vol'jin, the people, the common folk, cheered by theramore

The Horde victories against the LK weren't any of Garrosh's doing. He may have helped carve out Warsong Hold in Borean Tundra, but he doesn't appear anywhere else or do anything else of note in Northrend, aside from walking in Thrall's shadow and complaining about things.

Garrosh didn't enjoy the same majority of support as Sylvanas apparently did in BfA - in fact, he was required to threaten the Horde's people with his fanatical Kor'kron in order to enforce his war against the Alliance as per Tides of War. Garrosh's troops might have cheered it, but history has shown that Theramore was essentially the first step of Garrosh's eventual downfall and humiliation at MoP's close.

AThat is not anymore power lv, that is normal for wow standarts, Varian in other hand was infused with wildgod power.

As I said, he's far from alone in that as well. Garrosh himself was infused with Old God power during the Siege of Orgrimmar.

If they were abe to take theramore in the first attempt, or if they surrendered, there was no need to the nuke.

Except they weren't, and the Alliance even took back Northwatch for good measure - an engagement in which Garrosh relied on Dark Shamanism to try to win in a further perversion of Orcish tradition (which he hypocritically claimed to cherish).

He challenge him because he tough it was hi, who ordered the attack, and yes he deserved respect, he was warchief.

Garrosh outright said that he would have done the same had the thought occurred to him, basically putting him on the same level as the Twilight's Hammer - Warchief he may have been but he deserved nothing.

[Minikin]

Time travel is always a mess. The best use of time travel in Warcraft is probably the Caverns of Time because it's a transparent excuse to relive popular moments. I'd put Warlords in second place, which says a lot, since it is embarrassed to use its own time travel and quickly nixes all elements. All of WoD's time travel is just an overwrought contrivance in order to make use of a version of Draenor and its characters and so you don't have to think about it too much. The worst time travel is the Knaak stuff and everything relating to Thrall going back in time to steal the Dragon Soul in Cata.

You know what the true casualty of that is? WoD zones were actually gorgeous. Draenor was freaking beautiful. But Blizzard absolutely tanked that expac and I spent no time in it.

[Aresk]

Don't be disingenuous. None of the in game story events focused on faction conflict in TBC or LK. How many cutscenes or quests focused on the faction war in LK? The Garrosh vs Varian cutscene and a few quests in Icecrown and Grizzly Hills? How many focused on the faction war in BFA? Hundreds of quests and the vast majority of cutscenes.

Wow is at its best when the faction conflict is at most way way in the background.

I will agree with you that the faction conflict in LK was one of the better instances of it, but I disagree that it was way in the background. It's present right at the beginning of the zones. Gryphon riders are attacking the Horde in Howling Fjord. Taunka are sending Horde adventurers against the gnomes in Borean Tundra. Two raids featured faction-based boss fights. Varian invades a Horde city and declares war. This is in addition to the PvP zone, PvP event in Grizzly Hills, two arenas, and two battlegrounds that were introduced. I thought it was a nice way of illustrating the faction conflict without requiring it to dominate the narrative.

[aceperson]

op: maybe the writers just suck?

shills: that can't possibly be it!

covenant campaign chapter 4: lets listen to a message about keeping the sigil safe, remove it from the safe space, and then bring it directly into a prison ran by the jailer. it's fool proof!

op: you were saying?