Clarifying Garrosh's Stance

[Pum]

I think it is also kind of telling about Garrosh that his Pride was so great that he was still dominant over the Sha. He fought the Sha with the very thing they meant to control, and the Sha lost -- keeping in mind, Y'shaarj was the most powerful Old God and he became even more dangerous in death. If Garrosh was able to still maintain control against that... well, I guess there's a reason why he succeeded in so many timelines at being one of the greatest Warchiefs the Horde ever had. But it also says quite a lot that this one incarnation became the dominant representation despite all the other ones being so great as well.

You think the REMNANTS of Y'shaarj, and all of the Sha, were more dangerous than Y'shaarj himself during the Black Empire days? We 'defeated' N'zoth with the power of a world soul, so if Y'shaarj is the most powerful of them all, and his Sha were even more powerful, how was some random meathead Orc able to control such power? What is this headcanon.

Garrosh was hardly in control, he was fucking insane towards the end, the power was absolutely controlling him; just because he has lease to direct the power does not mean he was in control, he was unhinged.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Y'shaarj was the most powerful Old God and he became even more dangerous in death.

I would like a quote to show that Y'shaarj had become more dangerous in death. As far as I'm aware, this was never stated in-game, and certainly does not appear to be the case from what we observe. The Sha are, if anything, a minor inconvenience, whereas the release of an Old God has been shown to have global implications.

[Rockefellah]

Id reckon the difference is in who is slave of who.

Warlock/Fel = surrendering yourself to the legion / demons (weakness)
Void/Shadowpriest/Darkshamanism = imposing your will on others (strenght)

Orcs, and in particular Garrosh' have a high respect for strenght, and despise weakness. Orc warlocks will initially claim that the demons serve them, but eventually they are also puppets themselves.

[Newname1234567890]

Garrosh believed he could resist the Old Gods, and according to Blizzard he did (or did last time I heard). So he wouldn't enslave the Horde to another master so far as he was concerned. Garrosh isn't against utilizing foreign powers just bowing to them.

[Myradin]

Garrosh was an extremist, and as such, was prone to hypocracy. If anything it helps humanize him.

I just never got his big hatred of the Alliance. I'm not saying he shouldn't have a thing against them, its just the way her regarded them felt personal.

[Newname1234567890]

Garrosh was an extremist, and as such, was prone to hypocracy. If anything it helps humanize him.

I just never got his big hatred of the Alliance. I'm not saying he shouldn't have a thing against them, its just the way her regarded them felt personal.

Tbf to garrosh. His world was dying, his people ventured to a new world to save their race in the dying world. Then the Alliance bested them. Then shroty after the Alliance invaded his world, it blow up (not the Alliances doing but who knows what young garrosh was told). Garrosh then learnt his people had survived on the other world but had been kept in camps by the humans and now lived on a barren desert.

Clearly alot of this is the Hordes fault but Garrosh was a young and angry so I could easily see him twisting all this events in his head.

[Myradin]

Tbf to garrosh. His world was dying, his people ventured to a new world to save their race in the dying world. Then the Alliance best them. Then shroty after the Alliance invaded his world it blow up (not the Alliances doing but who knows what young garrosh was told). Garrosh then learnt his people had survived on the other world but had been kept in camps by the humans and now lived on a barren desert.

Clearly alot of this is the Hordes fault but Garrosh was a young and angry so I could easily see him twisting all this events in his head.

Yeah, I can definitely theorize on why he did. I'm just surprised he never went out and said it. He wasn't exactly the secretive type, if he didn't like you, he told you why.

But its always just vague "cowardly aliance" "alliance dogs".

[Syegfryed]

I'm not a Horde player so maybe this is why I'm confused. Garrosh hated warlocks, having the Horde muddied with other races and was ashamed of his father for drinking demon blood, yes? But then he eagerly and desperately consumes the power of an Old God that literally corrupts him. Am I missing something or was Garrosh just a huge hypocrite? Thanks

You cannot control fel magic, it corrupts you anyway, you can control th void/shadow magic. The heart didn't corrupt him.

But this is more of a 180° degree in the character to make him the villain of Pandaria

basically, there is two different Garroshes, one from tbc to cata the warchief and leader who fought a rightfully war for his people and the other from MOP. who became Orc Hitler to be the End boss because ~~reasons~~

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Garrosh was an extremist, and as such, was prone to hypocracy. If anything it helps humanize him.

I just never got his big hatred of the Alliance. I'm not saying he shouldn't have a thing against them, its just the way her regarded them felt personal.

They defeated the Old Horde and put the Orcs in internment camps, and also invaded his world (though just to stop the Horde and foil Ner'zhul's plans without conquering or enslaving anyone) which was the moment when he tried to join Kargath and his men only to be unable to and rejected due to him being sick of the Red Pox, and later proved to be still distrustful and hostile to the Horde even after Grommash's redemption (though it was again ignoring that they had valid reasons to not be friendly and distrustful of the Horde).

I guess that he envies the Alliance for the richer lands and easier life that they have compared to the Horde, as well as blaming them for the Horde's defeat and current problems even if they were just defending themselves during the First and Second wars and that it's their right to defend their lands and themselves from the Orcs and to not be too eager to share them with the Orcs today.

[Magical Mudcrab]

You cannot control fel magic, it corrupts you anyway, you can control th void/shadow magic.

This is just patently not true, and stating such is absurd. Hell, even more common types of magic like Arcane magic has been shown to have negative side effects from long-term use, most notably in the form of an unnatural addiction that causes users to mentally and physically degrade.

[Syegfryed]

Yeah, I can definitely theorize on why he did. I'm just surprised he never went out and said it. He wasn't exactly the secretive type, if he didn't like you, he told you why.

But its always just vague "cowardly aliance" "alliance dogs".

the reason he hate the alliance is on his short story, hear of war(i think the name is right)

He saw the orcs living in poverty and famine being hunted down by the alliance. And he though that didn't make sense, why Thrall would leave the orcs to repent for the sins of their fathers? why the alliance keep hunting then down even after they helping the third war? why go to another continent to kiill thn? why the night elves with abundance of resources could not share or sell with then?

Those things just kept building up and when he had the power to change he was baffled how the other leaders/advisors were fine with it and against him..

- - - Updated - - -

This is just patently not true, and stating such is absurd. Hell, even more common types of magic like Arcane magic has been shown to have negative side effects from long-term use, most notably in the form of an unnatural addiction that causes users to mentally and physically degrade.

you said it is absurd and didn't provide a explanation of why it is?

I didn't say void/shadow magic can't corrupt you, im saying you can control it, Fel is much worse as the mere presence nearby can affect and corrupt you, most of the orcs were corrupted because others drink the demon blood, they got corrupted by being close.

with fel you are bound to become a demon and be controlled by stronger demons.

Nevertheless, this si probably their mindset, they don't know metalore to know the void/shadow will eventually affect then somehow.

[BobAwesome]

I just never got his big hatred of the Alliance. I'm not saying he shouldn't have a thing against them, its just the way her regarded them felt personal.

He had no reason to personally hate the alliance either though. Dude was just a roid-raging fratbro.

[Magical Mudcrab]

you said it is absurd and didn't provide a explanation of why it is?

I didn't say void/shadow magic can't corrupt you, im saying you can control it, Fel is much worse as the mere presence nearby can affect and corrupt you, most of the orcs were corrupted because others drink the demon blood, they got corrupted by being close.

with fel you are bound to become a demon and be controlled by stronger demons.

Nevertheless, this si probably their mindset, they don't know metalore to know the void/shadow will eventually affect then somehow.

I did show you why it's absurd. Things like Arcane addiction aren't afflictions that can ever be cured or resolved, and you become addicted by proximity. With Arcane addiction you have to perpetually deal with the symptoms or become afflicted with the effects, and any instance in which you fail to do so could lead to irreversible effects. If Garrosh's motivation was to remove magics that were corrupting by proximity, and not just ones he had an irrational hatred of, he would have targeted Mages as well as Warlocks. Moreover, Void magic is likely one of the most corrupting magics as you become plagued by the whispers of the Void constantly trying to subvert your decisions and draw you into its embrace. You don't control it, you manage its symptoms as it gradually wears you down until you give in.

[Garretdejiko]

I'm not a Horde player so maybe this is why I'm confused. Garrosh hated warlocks, having the Horde muddied with other races and was ashamed of his father for drinking demon blood, yes? But then he eagerly and desperately consumes the power of an Old God that literally corrupts him. Am I missing something or was Garrosh just a huge hypocrite? Thanks

Uh oh! Are you questioning our writer overlords' literary skills?

Stonetalon Mountrains' Garrosh has nothing to do with MoP Garrosh

[Cosmic Janitor]

Hence why he is (or was? I don't follow SL lore anymore) a massive anima battery for the Venthyr

They only showed him in the video in revendreth, he got send to the maw before we arrived apparently and was used in torghast to keep the lights on. Since they teased him, the whole thing felt a bit forced tbh, like they forgot to add him to Castle Nathria and just hastily crammed him in here to wrap him up.

[Syegfryed]

I did show you why it's absurd. Things like Arcane addiction aren't afflictions that can ever be cured or resolved, and you become addicted by proximity. With Arcane addiction you have to perpetually deal with the symptoms or become afflicted with the effects, and any instance in which you fail to do so could lead to irreversible effects. .

humans, trolls, draeneis and other races use the arcane magic with not problem for thousand years, without a single problem, this problem seem to be more related to the elves and how they use the raw arcane of the well. Again, totally different from the void and fel

If Garrosh's motivation was to remove magics that were corrupting by proximity, and not just ones he had an irrational hatred of, he would have targeted Mages as well as Warlocks. Moreover, Void magic is likely one of the most corrupting magics as you become plagued by the whispers of the Void constantly trying to subvert your decisions and draw you into its embrace. You don't control it, you manage its symptoms as it gradually wears you down until you give in

Not just magic by proximity, just magic that is high ly corruptive, fel is more corruptive than the other, period.

The void and the whispers affect your mind, this he think a strong will can surpass, unlike fel magic, that no matter how strong of will you are, it will eventually corrupt both body and mind.

[Skirdus]

Fel corrupts regardless of intent and anyone can use it. You can be the most powerful warlock out there but you'd still passively leech the land around you as you do it and render it unusable. It's like radiation. Even if you yourself use fel for a 'good' cause, you'd still poison the land around it, turn green etc. Plus there's the historical connotations of it being a symbol of the orcs waging other people's wars.

The heart of Y'shaarj and the void in general requires strength of character to control, but you can control it if you have the will for it. You can focus it while doing so. Garrosh was in control of the power he had in the raid. On twitter they compared it to him wearing it like a suit of armor and that checks out - after we beat him all that stuff melts off and he just carries on the same as he did before.

Aren't these traits kind of... interchangeable, in a sense?

Illidan and his entire army were basically fel-corrupted - and yes, they corrupted the land around them and made it uninhabitable as a result - but they still used its power to do good; or at least, their idea of good. They pretty much "used" fel the same way that Garrosh used the power of an old god, or void.

Meanwhile, the Ethereum, Shadowguard, etc. all use void for a similar purpose - against the very source of its power - and yet they still seem to corrupt the land around them in the exact same manner, considering the state of Netherstorm (with literal pools of unstable void corruption popping up around the Ethereum's encampments) and Mac'Aree (which, granted, was already suffering from corruption due to L'ura, but the Shadowguard's presence certainly made it even worse)

[cparle87]

I'm not a Horde player so maybe this is why I'm confused. Garrosh hated warlocks, having the Horde muddied with other races and was ashamed of his father for drinking demon blood, yes? But then he eagerly and desperately consumes the power of an Old God that literally corrupts him. Am I missing something or was Garrosh just a huge hypocrite? Thanks

Yes, he was a hypocrite. Warlock fel dark power was bad cause what it did to his father and people. Sha old power is not bad because... it's not fel.

[beanman12345]

Probably Berserker stance.

OT yeah it was pretty hypocritical of him.

[Kyphael]

Of course. That is not to say Garrosh has no redeeming qualities. As a character, I admire his pride and undying drive to do what he ardently believes is right by his race he is so loyal to, even if it's self-destructive and defeating to his own people, and his methods draconian. He's a perfect asshole, utterly, and unabashedly. A real "do as I say not do as I do" kind of guy. Comparing Old God corruption to Fel corruption is literally splitting hairs and trying to make heads or tails over a fictional cosmic force(s) whose very properties can and have been retconned at a writer's whim.

"Fel corrupts absolutely. It destroys everything, and is chaos manifest." Please. After Blizzard turned The Light into just another side of a six sided die, Fel, Void, Light, Arcane are all interchangeable with little more than aesthetics to truly distinguish them. It's not that any one "Force" is more corruptible than the other, it all boils down to the individual. A weak minded individual can be as easily driven insane by Arcane and The Light as they would Fel or Void. We've seen radical and batshit Paladins and Mages already who never even dabbled in some of the "bad cosmic forces."

Garrosh was an extremely flawed individual with incredibly powerful convictions who was able to use The Void and subdue its whispers because their subjugation were not greater than his own sheer will power, and that makes him worthy of discussion alone, but at the end of the day, he's still a hypocrite. It's not that Orcs were victims of Fel because Fel is bad. It's that his race was easily influenced and weak. Garrosh with Fel running through his veins wouldn't have been anymore unhinged than normal, just a hell of a lot physically stronger.

He's a special kind of asshole, and there haven't been many Orcs like him, and that's why we discuss him more than any other Orc besides Thrall who is written to be a hero.