Clarifying Garrosh's Stance

[Magical Mudcrab]

humans, trolls, draeneis and other races use the arcane magic with not problem for thousand years, without a single problem, this problem seem to be more related to the elves and how they use the raw arcane of the well. Again, totally different from the void and fel

The Highborne didn't have any side effects? The Blood Elves? The Nightborne? Hell, the Trolls who did stay near areas saturated with Arcane energy even mutated into an entirely different species because of it. You're ignoring the affliction and effects of Arcane magic to suit your argument.

Not just magic by proximity, just magic that is high ly corruptive, fel is more corruptive than the other, period.

The void and the whispers affect your mind, this he think a strong will can surpass, unlike fel magic, that no matter how strong of will you are, it will eventually corrupt both body and mind.

Except every member of the Council of the Black Harvest who didn't show signs of mutation, as well as most prolific Warlocks who don't explicitly allow the corruption to take hold as they hope for empowerment, almost as though there's a difference between using Fel magic and recklessly saturating an environment with it. Moreover, the magnitude of magic they used on Draenor even reached a fever pitch where it tore the planet apart, which has never been seen on Azeroth. This sort of comparison doesn't look good for an argument which wants to overlook that the mutations caused by the most reckless use of magic that's seen in Warcraft has similar effects to mortals as simply being in proximity to wells of Arcane energy.

[Jastall]

Garrosh has some pretty puzzling stances overall. Fel is bad because it controlled the Orcs... who willingly drank of it. OK. But dark shamanism is good, even if it flies in the face of many ancestral Orc teachings and seemingly ruins the land. And finally Old God juju is great, even if some of the Orcs who used it in the raid went insane and Garrosh himself was never half as unhinged as when he was drinking from the Heart, even if he wasn't brainwashed per se. It seems his morals just accommodated to whatever situation he was in, or that he just blindly went Fel = bad because it's what ruined his daddy or something.

We've seen that any power in too large doses is bad and "corrupts", even the Light. He was totally wrong to think he could control the Heart fully, he'd have ended a puppet like Azshara.

[shadowmatrix]

humans, trolls, draeneis and other races use the arcane magic with not problem for thousand years, without a single problem, this problem seem to be more related to the elves and how they use the raw arcane of the well. Again, totally different from the void and fel

Between Azshara and the Blood Elves magic addiction arcane magic has caused plenty of problems.

[Zmagoslav]

In lore just about everyone hates warlocks... why do you think they have to operate from the cellars of taverns, instead of having an actual order hall within cities?
There's a good reason why warlocks never show up as good guys in lore too... much like shadow priests.

With Garrosh it was more about what the hel represented to him; it was what destroyed his home-world and what enslaved his people.
His whole arc was about finding pride in being an orc; but he took it too far.
In the end he successfully used/abused (if blizzard is to believe) one of the most corrupting forces on the planet by channeling his pride and wrath and that's actually commendable.

[Ielenia]

That might also just have been the strength of his soul by itself. We don't really know how anima works

We kinda do. "Anima" is collected into the soul through their deeds in life, both good and bad. IIRC correctly Blizzard explained in the Blizzcon when they announced Shadowlands. There's also a hint of this in the Kyrian anima conductor WQ where you "judge" souls, and the kyrian there mentions that they "sometimes usher the souls of children back to life to collect more anima".

[Super Dickmann]

Aren't these traits kind of... interchangeable, in a sense?

Illidan and his entire army were basically fel-corrupted - and yes, they corrupted the land around them and made it uninhabitable as a result - but they still used its power to do good; or at least, their idea of good. They pretty much "used" fel the same way that Garrosh used the power of an old god, or void.

Meanwhile, the Ethereum, Shadowguard, etc. all use void for a similar purpose - against the very source of its power - and yet they still seem to corrupt the land around them in the exact same manner, considering the state of Netherstorm (with literal pools of unstable void corruption popping up around the Ethereum's encampments) and Mac'Aree (which, granted, was already suffering from corruption due to L'ura, but the Shadowguard's presence certainly made it even worse)

The first sentence is my point - Fel corrupts either way. It might not turn you personally into a demon looking fucker, but it's based on cost - you spend life to use fel. That's the principle of the magic - You might be the best, most capable and well-intentioned warlock on the planet and over the course of whatever you're doing you'd still leech the land or yourself or some other person. Take the blood elves if you want an example - most of them didn't touch any fel, but their eyes still turned green. Or the orcs before they drank the blood were still green due to radiation and their territory was still fucked. It doesn't mean you can't do good with it, but it's anathema to any kind of long term existence since it's based on a loop of putting life in and getting fel out and whether you're weak willed or strong willed, a cripple or a bodybuilder you still get basically the same output. Illidan and company didn't 'use' fel with zero adverse consequences, they just used it for a cause that suited them and the consequences, like turning into shirtless demons who's souls are permanently altered.

With the void, yes, 9 times out of 10 you'll fail, go insane and turn into a blob going on about the shadow's whispers. But on the 10th time you'd be able to pull off what Garrosh, Alleria or even Benedictus did, which is to use the power for whatever you had in mind with 0 spillover on the world around you. And that power'd come entirely out of your qualities. Those weak-willed wouldn't be able to pull it off. At the end of SoO Garrosh is taken in and there's zero effect on him from having used the Heart and there's no ambient corruption on the Underhold either, it's reused with zero issue later on. I don't think the two ethereal groups are a particular good object of comparison, first off because they weren't trying to limit spillover in the first place and second because in one case Netherstorm was already blasted (With fel and arcane) and in the other the place they gathered in Mac'aree was visited by the Shadowguard precisely because it was leaking all over the place.

It's about the relationship to the power as much as anything else. It's not whether you're blowing up people's souls or growing extremities, it's if you're doing so based on your purposes for goals you decided, or if you're borrowing that power like a WoW PC in the last 3 expansions and doing it for the goals of others, with the body/soul changes being elements you can't control. This kind of thing is important to Garrosh and the orcs in general. Obviously to us consuming this stuff it's not really a distinction worth turning into a tentacle monster over.

[GreenJesus]

Huh, I completly forgot that Garrosh was technically the first mortal to succeed at defying the Void's whispers. Suck it, Alleria.

You forgot that Garrosh is also enigmatic.

[Forgottenone]

Garrosh was absolutely amazing before he started hating on the other races of the Horde. Even after I didn't mind him, he provided more Horde vs Alliance which should always be driving the story. Garrosh, Varian, and characters like that are that help make the Warcraft storyline great.

Not this reality breaking uselessness. People cried about wanting to move past the "Horde vs Alliance story", well we pretty much moved past it and look just how bad the storylines gotten.

[Syegfryed]

The Highborne didn't have any side effects? The Blood Elves? The Nightborne? Hell,

Did you read what i said? i literally said elves, and you procced to list elves.

the Trolls who did stay near areas saturated with Arcane energy even mutated into an entirely different species because of it. You're ignoring the affliction and effects of Arcane magic to suit your argument.

Ignoring? im literally pointing then out when talked about the well of eternity.

They didn't change because any magic arcane source, they changed because it was the blood of a titan. totally in a whole new level, plus, mutation over time and generations is different from instantly body corruption.

Except every member of the Council of the Black Harvest who didn't show signs of mutation, as well as most prolific Warlocks who don't explicitly allow the corruption to take hold as they hope for empowerment

Everyone shows signs of corruption, they just don't use much of the magic, they are limited, the moment they go too far they became corrupted like the guy we face in the green fire quest.

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Between Azshara and the Blood Elves magic addiction arcane magic has caused plenty of problems.

yes, elves, literally the ones i said where the problem lies, how weird.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Did you read what i said? i literally said elves, and you procced to list elves.

I read what you said, but the statement was nonsense; you've built an argument where any race near high concentrations of non-Fel magic are basically just cursed because of their race or how they use their magic, whereas the Orcish Horde, which did misuse Fel magic and did so with careless disregard, are totally a good example of how individual usage of Fel magic corrupts because it is an example of Fel magic being corruptive. You're playing a game of double standards. For Arcane, the only races that we know which have stayed around areas with high concentrations of Arcane energy for long periods of time have mutated or been afflicted with an incurable addiction. The addictiveness of Arcane magic isn't even unknown to non-elven races, as even the most novice mage trainers know about addiction to Arcane magic and Chronicle Vol. 1 even explicitly calls it one of the most volatile forms of magic.

Ignoring? im literally pointing then out when talked about the well of eternity.

They didn't change because any magic arcane source, they changed because it was the blood of a titan. totally in a whole new level, plus, mutation over time and generations is different from instantly body corruption.

Not just the Well of Eternity, but also the Nightwell, and The Sunwell, each of which had significantly less power than it and the former of which was empowered by the Eye of Aman'Thul. This isn't a "blood of titan" thing, this is high concentrations of Arcane magic thing.

Everyone shows signs of corruption, they just don't use much of the magic, they are limited, the moment they go too far they became corrupted like the guy we face in the green fire quest.

You mean Kanrethad Ebonlocke, the guy who was intentionally absorbing Fel magic until he underwent apotheosis? That is who you want to compare to people who are just wielding the magic? Really?

[Tojara]

Warlocks are just corrupting by nature and the void I guess has the potential to corrupt as well. Garrosh hated warlocks and demons because they basically ruined his childhood, his view on his father and damned his entire race to servitude or hiding. Void or old gods have the potential to do that as well, but that's not what caused the original Horde to fall to ruin so it makes sense his stance is entirely different on the two.

Whatever your opinion of Garrosh was, he took a discarded corpse and used it as a weapon and was in complete control of it the entire time. While the Pandaren locked it away and were afraid to embrace negative emotions, Garrosh literally did the opposite of it and yielded the essence of the old god up until his final moments in MoP. None of what the character did was influenced by the Sha in the slightest and just like his stance on pretty much everything else, he basically bended it to his will.

Blizzard does a poor job of portraying the character because a lot of the story surrounding Garrosh is put into comics, short stories or books that players in game might not be aware of. He was put into a position he didn't want to be in and was to be counseled by other leaders of the Horde who didn't give him the time of day. Both Cairne and Voljin turned on him for something that actually wasn't his fault and the disdain he started to hold for the other parts of the Horde slowly started to form from the moment onwards. His hatred towards the other races of the Horde make sense to me (especially the Undead lol) and they gave him really zero reason to think differently.

Garrosh likely would have viewed Fel differently if it didn't enslave and corrupt his people, and was used as a weapon instead but that wasn't his upbringing so it's natural he feels that way. Meanwhile he manipulates and uses forbidden old god shit as a fucking weapon and claims that people who can't wield it are weak minded and pathetic.

[arkanon]

Seems to USUALLY be left foot forward, and I believe he is right handed, meaning his stance would be considered an orthodox stance. Hope this helps.

[Thestrawman]

humans, trolls, draeneis and other races use the arcane magic with not problem for thousand years, without a single problem, this problem seem to be more related to the elves and how they use the raw arcane of the well. Again, totally different from the void and fel



Not just magic by proximity, just magic that is high ly corruptive, fel is more corruptive than the other, period.

The void and the whispers affect your mind, this he think a strong will can surpass, unlike fel magic, that no matter how strong of will you are, it will eventually corrupt both body and mind.

The old gods didn't need to corrupt Garrosh. He took the bait hook, like and sinker. Never thought about any consequences for his actions. Hell he dropped his weapon because Y'shaarj pooped out a shinier version of it.

[Chumahki]

Yes there are bitch ass Aliance of Evil who don't understand Garrosh. And I'll say that those pieces of shit slaver Alliance of Evil bastards should die. Slavery is wrong, period.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Yes there are bitch ass Aliance of Evil who don't understand Garrosh. And I'll say that those pieces of shit slaver Alliance of Evil bastards should die. Slavery is wrong, period.

I guess you don't know what peon means.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

While he might have been in control, as in not mind-controlled, it is kinda telling that he was so prideful after being merged with the eldritch horror of pride that he was turned into an infinite source of sin-anima in the janitors home.

I mean it was totally one of those moments were being so headstrong and stubborn pays off, but yeah, it doesn't make any of his morals or ethics actually, you know, "good."

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The first sentence is my point - Fel corrupts either way. It might not turn you personally into a demon looking fucker, but it's based on cost - you spend life to use fel. That's the principle of the magic - You might be the best, most capable and well-intentioned warlock on the planet and over the course of whatever you're doing you'd still leech the land or yourself or some other person. Take the blood elves if you want an example - most of them didn't touch any fel, but their eyes still turned green. Or the orcs before they drank the blood were still green due to radiation and their territory was still fucked. It doesn't mean you can't do good with it, but it's anathema to any kind of long term existence since it's based on a loop of putting life in and getting fel out and whether you're weak willed or strong willed, a cripple or a bodybuilder you still get basically the same output. Illidan and company didn't 'use' fel with zero adverse consequences, they just used it for a cause that suited them and the consequences, like turning into shirtless demons who's souls are permanently altered.

With the void, yes, 9 times out of 10 you'll fail, go insane and turn into a blob going on about the shadow's whispers. But on the 10th time you'd be able to pull off what Garrosh, Alleria or even Benedictus did, which is to use the power for whatever you had in mind with 0 spillover on the world around you. And that power'd come entirely out of your qualities. Those weak-willed wouldn't be able to pull it off. At the end of SoO Garrosh is taken in and there's zero effect on him from having used the Heart and there's no ambient corruption on the Underhold either, it's reused with zero issue later on. I don't think the two ethereal groups are a particular good object of comparison, first off because they weren't trying to limit spillover in the first place and second because in one case Netherstorm was already blasted (With fel and arcane) and in the other the place they gathered in Mac'aree was visited by the Shadowguard precisely because it was leaking all over the place.

It's about the relationship to the power as much as anything else. It's not whether you're blowing up people's souls or growing extremities, it's if you're doing so based on your purposes for goals you decided, or if you're borrowing that power like a WoW PC in the last 3 expansions and doing it for the goals of others, with the body/soul changes being elements you can't control. This kind of thing is important to Garrosh and the orcs in general. Obviously to us consuming this stuff it's not really a distinction worth turning into a tentacle monster over.

The big issue with this read is how does that make either "better" than the other in any sense beyond moral absolutism? In utilitarian terms, even if 10 out of 10 people are corrupted by fel by the end, fel has done more to defeat the enemies of life than void has yet to do.

So why is it a positive that "well at least void doesn't 100% corrupt you!"?

[Syegfryed]

I read what you said, but the statement was nonsense;

And your argument was something that i said myself, right

you've built an argument where any race near high concentrations of non-Fel magic are basically just cursed because of their race or how they use their magic, whereas the Orcish Horde, which did misuse Fel magic and did so with careless disregard, are totally a good example of how individual usage of Fel magic corrupts because it is an example of Fel magic being corruptive.

ok, nothing you said here make any sense.

You're playing a game of double standards. For Arcane, the only races that we know which have stayed around areas with high concentrations of Arcane energy for long periods of time have mutated or been afflicted with an incurable addiction.

Humans, draeneis, and other races stayed in concentrations of arcane for a while, dalaran was a magic city, and you don't see human variants pooping around do you?
the only races we know that mutated by arcane magic was due tot he titan's blood from the well.

The addictiveness of Arcane magic isn't even unknown to non-elven races, as even the most novice mage trainers know about addiction to Arcane magic and Chronicle Vol. 1 even explicitly calls it one of the most volatile forms of magic.

youa re making a strawman here, id idn't say a single thing about addiction but mutation and corruption, which are, different things.

Not just the Well of Eternity, but also the Nightwell, and The Sunwell,

oh right, all the wells who came from the nightwell, hur dur.

You mean Kanrethad Ebonlocke, the guy who was intentionally absorbing Fel magic until he underwent apotheosis? That is who you want to compare to people who are just wielding the magic? Really?

yes, thats exactly what im talking about, when yout ry to sue much of that, you became like that

Se Garry with the old god heart, he just came back to normal, with fell you don't go back, you ebcame a demon

Plus, Fel consume life energy, unlike arcane and void.

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The old gods didn't need to corrupt Garrosh. He took the bait hook, like and sinker. Never thought about any consequences for his actions. Hell he dropped his weapon because Y'shaarj pooped out a shinier version of it.

this ahve nothing to do with anything and there isn't "bait on this case, he did it because he wanted it

[BrintoSFJ]

Garrosh was an insecure man-baby.

He was a loser with severe brain damage, incapable of utilizing his assets to formulate a war winning strategy, an asswipe of a general! He attacked the night elves when Majev started a rebellion inside Darnassus, creating complete disarray among Night Elf forces but he still got stomped by the worgen and Varian Wrynn's sudden attack. Then Garrosh went "GODS HATE ME! THEY HATE ME I TELL YOU! THEY ARE CONSPIRING AGAINST ME! GODS ARE BITCH!". And we all know the rest. What a pathetic excuse of a warchief! Why the fuck Thrall choose him over Saurfang? Or even Voljin? What the fuck went wrong with Thrall's brain?

[Super Dickmann]

I mean it was totally one of those moments were being so headstrong and stubborn pays off, but yeah, it doesn't make any of his morals or ethics actually, you know, "good."

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The big issue with this read is how does that make either "better" than the other in any sense beyond moral absolutism? In utilitarian terms, even if 10 out of 10 people are corrupted by fel by the end, fel has done more to defeat the enemies of life than void has yet to do.

So why is it a positive that "well at least void doesn't 100% corrupt you!"?

Because that's the reasoning that's important to Garrosh and because the possibility that you can impose your will on the void and so have it do whatever you want doesn't exist for fel. Fel is 'physical', intent and strength of will play no role. His father and the orcs were given power and then lost everything as the meme says. Garrosh takes power and then uses it to his own aims. Garrosh didn't especially care about fighting the enemies of life or if people using fel ultimately did more good for the world, but if you are the master of that power or if it masters you and if it can be used towards the end of creating a land that serves the orcs. The Void rewards having extremely strong will and has no fallout in the extremely niche cases where you have that kind of will, fel always has side effects and has huge historical baggage for the orcs so one is fine and the other isn't.

It's not even really the object of much interpretation - Garrosh says it outright at the end of 5.1. That the sha is a power that uses the unworthy but that you can hypothetically master it and he means to be the one to do so.

I'm not making any argument about the morality of either, the void is obviously evil and arguably more evil than fel because it actually has intent instead of just being physical, but rather that void suits Garrosh's idea of the orcs as masters of the powers they use more so and what he intended with it was provably possible.

[Chumahki]

Un-oldgodcorrupted Garrosh was a fantastic Warchief. He did more against the Alliance of Evil than anyone until Warchief Sylvanas made her justified and legitimate assault against the legitimate military target of Teldrassil. Before he was corrupted, just like Anduin, Garrosh did nothing wrong. The Alliance of Evil must be destroyed, and any Warchief that does not pursue that end is no warchief of The Horde.