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  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by Noobslayer View Post
    Here we go again. If you need the danger then don't fly. You can have all the danger/time sink/tedium you want doing it over and over again on your dailies etc.but leave everyone else out of it.
    This is not really a valid option, people don't want to inconvenience themselves for no reason.

    If there was a vendor added that sold bis mythic gear and all mounts and pets for a copper each, that would probably not be very good for the game because people would do it and then quit out of not having anything to aim for.

    The appropriate response to that isn't "well just don't use the vendor," it is "stop designing the game in a really stupid way."

  2. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrif View Post
    This is not really a valid option, people don't want to inconvenience themselves for no reason.
    Inconvenience how? Because you have to travel longer? That's what "not flying" does.

    It sounds brash, but it's true. If you don't like flying... don't fly. It's completely optional.

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    It sounds brash, but it's true. If you don't like flying... don't fly. It's completely optional.
    It's about as optional as giving every class a one shot ability in PvP, then replying to anyone who doesn't like that to "not use it".

    Flying is a massive boon to the mobility of the player character that's simply beyond the level where you can just ignore it without being constantly reminded that you are at a severe disadvantage over anyone that does use flying.

    And here haven't even tackled content that you effectively deny yourself because it's designed for flying.

  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    It's about as optional as giving every class a one shot ability in PvP, then replying to anyone who doesn't like that to "not use it".

    Flying is a massive boon to the mobility of the player character that's simply beyond the level where you can just ignore it without being constantly reminded that you are at a severe disadvantage over anyone that does use flying.

    And here haven't even tackled content that you effectively deny yourself because it's designed for flying.
    That's reaching, my friend. You can survive without flying so my point still stands. If you don't like it, don't use it. It's not mandatory.

    You also have the option of staying on a Classic server and not playing TBC which makes the "</3 Flying" threads even more silly. When TBC came out 14 years ago, we knew it had flying then so it's not like it was a surprise. I'll be honest, I think most comments complaining about it today are just trying to wind people up.

  5. #345
    You say that and you say "I hate flying" well, in retail people whine they cant use it for months when a new expansion comes out.

    People will complain about it always
    "I cant use flying games ruined"
    "Flying ruins the game"

    people wont be happy either way *shrugs*

  6. #346
    If I were tasked with redesigning WoW I would definitely put severe constraints on flying mounts. I'm thinking weekly rewards giving players a limited amount of flight time so the privilege of flying constantly has to be earned. That way the people who insist on flying will go through the trouble of obtaining as much flight time as they can while the people who prefer to experience this game from the ground can commit their time and resources elsewhere.

  7. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    It's not mandatory.
    It remains the dumbest argument in the context of gaming.
    Everybody knows that in WoW particular is massive when comes to Meta gaming, when you have the choice between two options, then it's the ones that provides the best results that gets chosen overwhelmingly, regardless of personal preferences.

    At the end of the day, a lot of things are not "mandatory" in TBC.

    Raiding is not "Mandatory".
    PvP is not "Mandatory".
    Farming is not "Mandatory".

    The only thing that is objectively mandatory is to pay Blizzard, yet we all know that certain choices are effectively made for you based on a players preference.

    Do you want to farm gold with mining / herbalism efficiently?
    Then using your ground mount is not an option.

    The difference between using flying and not using flying isn't some single digit percentage, someone that uses (epic flying) is like 3-4 more efficient than one that doesn't.

    And i am going to once again remind you that there is content that is designed exclusively around flying, content that de facto does not exist for anyone that doesn't want to use flying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    You also have the option of staying on a Classic server and not playing TBC which makes the "</3 Flying" threads even more silly. When TBC came out 14 years ago, we knew it had flying then so it's not like it was a surprise. I'll be honest, I think most comments complaining about it today are just trying to wind people up.
    I think that shows once again that you are among the people that do not understand the point of this thread.

    The OP never suggested that flying should have been removed from TBCC, the way i have interpreted this thread (and i'm repeating myself here) is that it's a conclusion done in hindsight.
    After all, we just played Classic a few months ago, where flying did not exist at all in any capacity, hence it's actually a good comparison to make when TBC launched to see how it impacts the world.
    In the sense of "I can actually now make a good comparison and came to the following conclusion".

    It is very different to saying "in Hindsight, this was a mistake" and "This was a mistake, we should change it".

    I also believe that LFD was a mistake, yet i'm not going to suggest LFD should be omitted entirely when Wotlk Classic comes out, those expansions relaunches are still to a large extent about recreating the experience, not creating a "corrected" timeline for the game with every perceived flaw removed.
    Flying is a critical part of TBC, hence it exists in TBCC, this however does not mean i have acknowledge flying as the "superior option".
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-07-15 at 11:44 AM.

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Inconvenience how? Because you have to travel longer? That's what "not flying" does.
    Because not being able to fly is an inconvenience, but at the same time it can make the world more fun and engaging. Convenience isn't always a good thing, and inconvenience isn't always a bad thing.

    Say for example that there was a vendor where you could buy full mythic bis gear for a silver piece. That would've been super convenient. Having to raid for the gear in comparison would be super inconvenient. That doesn't mean that introducing that vendor is a good idea, but it does mean that everyone would do the convenient thing and buy the gear (even though they'd rather do the inconvenient raid for it, if the vendor didn't exist) and then quit out of boredom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    It sounds brash, but it's true. If you don't like flying... don't fly. It's completely optional.
    It's not brash, and it's not true. It's just a nonanswer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    That's reaching, my friend. You can survive without flying so my point still stands. If you don't like it, don't use it. It's not mandatory.
    It's not a measurement of how much of an inconvenience it is. People will always take the convenient path of least resistance. Which doesn't mean it's the best path. It's up to the developers to make sure that the most convenient path is engaging and fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    You also have the option of staying on a Classic server and not playing TBC which makes the "</3 Flying" threads even more silly. When TBC came out 14 years ago, we knew it had flying then so it's not like it was a surprise. I'll be honest, I think most comments complaining about it today are just trying to wind people up.
    Staying in classic is about as much as a non-solution as "just dont fly" is.

    OP clearly want to play TBC and want there to be a sense of danger in the world. Which is fine, and you can disagree (and a lot of people do), but saying "don't use it then" is just such a nonanswer.
    Last edited by Thrif; 2021-07-15 at 11:58 AM.

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    *snip*
    Being dumb in your opinion is irrelevant. It's still optional. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO FLY IF YOU DO NOT LIKE IT!

    I never insinuated what the OP meant. I'm reading all the comments and I so often see people who just don't get it... you do not have to fly. It is NOT a critical part of TBC. To be critical means it will make/break you, which it will not.

    Farming herbs, etc will be faster with flying... but you can still farm them without it. Of course it makes it faster but if all that takes out the immersion to you, simply don't do it.

    Yes, there is some content that requires flying but you're not missing out on anything gamebreaking. Netherwing? Yes, you need flying and the end reward is another fancy mount.

    The last part of content for TBC was IoQD and you cannot fly there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thrif View Post
    *snip*
    That's a very subjective term. We didn't fly for a long time before TBC came out and nobody considered it inconvenient. It may be less efficient but not every player measures their own efficiency the same way.

    It is true and it is an answer. Just don't do it. It's that simple. There is no complicated formula to figure out. If you don't like using the guide stones... walk to the dungeon. Plain and simple. It's "less efficient" but if you feel more immersed, knock yourself out.

    Not everyone takes the convenient path of least resistance. There are people who deck the crap out of their game with so many addons that the game nearly plays itself. I never used addons and I got by just fine. I never thought I was inconvenienced.

    You are correct, staying in Classic is similar but it IS a solution. It's like complaining that you don't like the taste of chocolate but you keep eating chocolate. Rather than the clear and obvious common sense solution of "stop eating chocolate", you push to make it taste like pizza.

    You thinking it's a non-answer doesn't make it a non-answer. It's common sense. TBC is what TBC is. We knew what it was from when it was out 14 years ago and people STILL make silly complaints about it. It reminds me of these younger generation gamers who came to the Retro gaming subreddit and complained about how we need to get online with our 8-bit Nintendo games.

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Being dumb in your opinion is irrelevant.
    No, your opinion is however numb to to reality, because the alternative you provide is not reasonable in the grand scheme of the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Farming herbs, etc will be faster with flying... but you can still farm them without it. Of course it makes it faster but if all that takes out the immersion to you, simply don't do it.
    The problem is that other players magically don't disappear from your sight because you consider it immersion breaking.
    Let alone when you go the Auction house and try to sell the bit of mats you've farmed over hours at pitiful prices because others are much more efficient at farming than you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Yes, there is some content that requires flying but you're not missing out on anything gamebreaking. Netherwing? Yes, you need flying and the end reward is another fancy mount.
    Considering there isn't much endgame outside of raiding in TBC, it's actually relevant.
    Same goes for Ogri'la and Sha'tari Skyguard btw..

    Because that's the only non raidcontent added to TBC outside of the Isle of Quel'danas.
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    It is true and it is an answer. Just don't do it. It's that simple. There is no complicated formula to figure out. If you don't like using the guide stones... walk to the dungeon. Plain and simple. It's "less efficient" but if you feel more immersed, knock yourself out.
    Go ahead, i want to see the reaction of your group when they ask you to to port them and you reply with "i consider this immersion breaking and thus will not do it".
    You're not going to get invited into future groups with that kind of attitude.
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Not everyone takes the convenient path of least resistance. There are people who deck the crap out of their game with so many addons that the game nearly plays itself. I never used addons and I got by just fine. I never thought I was inconvenienced.
    When the matter at hand makes yourself 3-4 times more efficient, those people aren't exactly many that cripple themselves that hard.

    Addons don't cut your leveling time by 75%.
    Addons don't quadruple your damage.
    Others using addons doesn't make me less efficient.

    The comparison is stupid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    You are correct, staying in Classic is similar but it IS a solution. It's like complaining that you don't like the taste of chocolate but you keep eating chocolate. Rather than the clear and obvious common sense solution of "stop eating chocolate", you push to make it taste like pizza.
    You miss the point, the entire point of this topic is more like:
    "Does Pineapple fit to Pizza" not "Should we ban Pinneapple Pizza".

    Again, a pretty simple difference yet half of your post is a clear showcase that you do not grasp the difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    You thinking it's a non-answer doesn't make it a non-answer. It's common sense.
    It's common sense that it's a nonanswer, because it doesn't engage in any arguments, it's just to indirectly say "shut up, i don't want to discuss this".
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    TBC is what TBC is. We knew what it was from when it was out 14 years ago and people STILL make silly complaints about it. It reminds me of these younger generation gamers who came to the Retro gaming subreddit and complained about how we need to get online with our 8-bit Nintendo games.
    You are not even processing my posts, aren't you?
    I said: This is not a suggestion to remove flying from TBC.

    Stop raising strawman arguments because nobody suggested the removal of flying from TBCC.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-07-15 at 12:52 PM.

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrif View Post
    This is not really a valid option, people don't want to inconvenience themselves for no reason.

    If there was a vendor added that sold bis mythic gear and all mounts and pets for a copper each, that would probably not be very good for the game because people would do it and then quit out of not having anything to aim for.

    The appropriate response to that isn't "well just don't use the vendor," it is "stop designing the game in a really stupid way."
    "For no reason"? Interesting. You realise you are saying there is no reason to use a ground mount, right?.....think that through.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  12. #352
    the problem with flying is that you can't have flying combat. if classes could still attack while mounted it would be so much more fun.
    ...that's just my opinion, anyway.

    All of this cosmological stuff is too boring for me. I'd like to get Warcraft back, please. my thing is killing defias and orcs.

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by guisadop View Post
    the problem with flying is that you can't have flying combat. if classes could still attack while mounted it would be so much more fun.
    This is obviously the biggest thing ppl don't see. On ground mount, you try to run away and other ppl on ground can still attack u. On flying mounts you are almost completely safe from other players. Except for gimmicky shit like mages dismounting mid air to pom Pyro u one time every 3 mins (which won't 1 shot u anyway) then snowfall to safety, no one is gonna touch you once your 41+ yards above the ground.

    On ground, other players and mobs are a threat and something u risk running into. In the sky, u are 99% safe.

  14. #354
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrif View Post
    No it isn't, players shouldn't need to inconvenience themselves due to to bad design decisions. That's just not how people function. Everyone is going to take the path of least resistance to something, but it's up to the developers to make that path worthwhile and interesting.
    It's not a bad design decision, and apparently certain players actually want to "be inconvenienced". It's the whole point behind the "dangers of the world" argument, running into mobs and other players, etc, while questing and PvP'ing.

    The poster I'm currently responding to is a perfect example of that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    You're so close to getting my point.
    So remove all mounts altogether? Ground and flying mounts?

    Yes, mobs won't hit u unless u run too close. Thats what I'm saying. U have to alter your path, thus giving your pursuer a slightly better angle on you.
    I'll repeat (it's annoying how many times I'm having to do this with you):
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    No one would just go around zig-zagging. Just go on a straight line, making slight adjustments. On top of that, if you're smart enough, you can make it so you avoid a group of mobs, but also force the pursuing player to either lose you, or risk going through the group of mobs you just avoided.

    Yes, those randoms can jump in and kill the pursuer. Something that doesn't happen when you are on the flying mount in the sky.
    So both cancel each other out.

    Do you see now based on the things you posted, that the addition of flying mounts has changed the way world pvp plays out?
    Not really? Not that much from where I'm standing. "World PvP" in my experience is 99.9% of the time "high level player ambushes low level player" which, flying mount or no flying mount, will end up with the ambushed player dead. That hasn't changed one bit.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
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  15. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It's not a bad design decision, and apparently certain players actually want to "be inconvenienced". It's the whole point behind the "dangers of the world" argument, running into mobs and other players, etc, while questing and PvP'ing.

    The poster I'm currently responding to is a perfect example of that.

    - - - Updated - - -


    So remove all mounts altogether? Ground and flying mounts?


    I'll repeat (it's annoying how many times I'm having to do this with you):




    So both cancel each other out.


    Not really? Not that much from where I'm standing. "World PvP" in my experience is 99.9% of the time "high level player ambushes low level player" which, flying mount or no flying mount, will end up with the ambushed player dead. That hasn't changed one bit.
    If we were in the middle of a questing area, dense with mobs and other players, you are low on health when we spot eachother and want to avoid pvp with me, would you prefer when we both mounted up that we both got on ground mounts, or flying mounts? Same speed, would it matter which one we got on?

    What if u got on a 60% ground mount, i got in a 60% flying mount. Would that matter?

    Or does it not matter at all because ground and flying mounts are functionally the same

  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by dewd View Post
    why should there be danger? the content is in the raids which are indoors where you cant fly anyway
    Objectively not true, in TBCC at least.
    The wise wolf who's pride is her wisdom isn't so sharp as drunk.

  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    No, your opinion is however numb to to reality, because the alternative you provide is not reasonable in the grand scheme of the game.
    Not reasonable to you because you don't like it does not mean it's not reasonable overall.

    The problem is that other players magically don't disappear from your sight because you consider it immersion breaking.
    Let alone when you go the Auction house and try to sell the bit of mats you've farmed over hours at pitiful prices because others are much more efficient at farming than you.
    That's not their problem, it's your problem for not liking a feature that's included in the game. There are pros and cons to using or not using it. Pick your poison.

    Considering there isn't much endgame outside of raiding in TBC, it's actually relevant.
    Same goes for Ogri'la and Sha'tari Skyguard btw..
    Because that's the only non raidcontent added to TBC outside of the Isle of Quel'danas.[/quote]

    Not everyone engages in that content. Next?

    Go ahead, i want to see the reaction of your group when they ask you to to port them and you reply with "i consider this immersion breaking and thus will not do it".
    You're not going to get invited into future groups with that kind of attitude.
    Same concept as flying. "Sorry guys, I don't like flying, I'll be there in a few minutes". It's a risk you're going to take not wanting to fly in a game where flying is an option.

    Please don't forget that there are people who RP in this game too. Maybe they RP as a ground adventurer.

    When the matter at hand makes yourself 3-4 times more efficient, those people aren't exactly many that cripple themselves that hard.

    Addons don't cut your leveling time by 75%.
    Addons don't quadruple your damage.
    Others using addons doesn't make me less efficient.

    The comparison is stupid.
    75% of statistics are made up on the spot. Optional features can vary in how much they affect your game. Those statistics may not be as critical to someone else as they may be to you.

    You miss the point, the entire point of this topic is more like:
    "Does Pineapple fit to Pizza" not "Should we ban Pinneapple Pizza".

    Again, a pretty simple difference yet half of your post is a clear showcase that you do not grasp the difference.
    You're trying to distort the topic to paint your own narrative and pretend I'm the one confused. Please don't do that, it's very petty.

    It's common sense that it's a nonanswer, because it doesn't engage in any arguments, it's just to indirectly say "shut up, i don't want to discuss this".
    Wrong because you're bringing up a problem that isn't a problem. I don't play baseball and complain that I have to hit things with a bat. I go into baseball knowing I have to hit things with a bat.

    You are not even processing my posts, aren't you?
    I said: This is not a suggestion to remove flying from TBC.

    Stop raising strawman arguments because nobody suggested the removal of flying from TBCC.
    I'm processing your posts just fine. You're assuming that I stated this was a topic about removing flying, which I clearly said I wasn't yet you accuse me of strawman? Let's not be dishonest.

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Inconvenience how? Because you have to travel longer? That's what "not flying" does.

    It sounds brash, but it's true. If you don't like flying... don't fly. It's completely optional.
    You need flying if you want to be able to run Karazan or reach certain gathering spots. Outside of the extreme convenience that flying provides, it is actually mandatory for certain parts of the game. Beyond that, its 280% speed which is almost 3 times over the ground mount. That is too much to give up if one wants to spend their time outside efficiently.

    It may sound brash but the consistent "don't fly" responses add absolutely nothing to the discussion.
    The wise wolf who's pride is her wisdom isn't so sharp as drunk.

  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by kail View Post
    You need flying if you want to be able to run Karazan or reach certain gathering spots. Outside of the extreme convenience that flying provides, it is actually mandatory for certain parts of the game. Beyond that, its 280% speed which is almost 3 times over the ground mount. That is too much to give up if one wants to spend their time outside efficiently.

    It may sound brash but the consistent "don't fly" responses add absolutely nothing to the discussion.
    As I stated to another person, not everyone engages in all content.

    As far as the 280% flying, soooooo few actually had that back in TBC. I played on a high population server and it was not common to see someone with 280.

    "Don't fly" do add because flying isn't going anywhere. It is what it is. Most of us going into TBC Classic knew what we were getting into. Yes, most of the complaints are fake complaints for people trying to wind others up but the points still stand.

  20. #360
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    If we were in the middle of a questing area, dense with mobs and other players, you are low on health when we spot eachother and want to avoid pvp with me, would you prefer when we both mounted up that we both got on ground mounts, or flying mounts? Same speed, would it matter which one we got on?
    Okay. You're making up an ideal scenario, here. If you happen to spot a player of the opposite faction, most of the time one, two, or three of the following will be true:
    • You'll be still engaged with a mob group;
    • The opposite player will still be engaged with a mob group;
    • The two of you will still be engaged with a mob group.

    On top of that, it takes three whole seconds to summon up your mount. In those three seconds, the opposite player can easily catch up to you on foot, or at least get in range to toss a quick ranged attack to keep you in combat and prevent your daring escape.

    What if u got on a 60% ground mount, i got in a 60% flying mount. Would that matter?
    Then I would ask why did you not get on your 100% ground mount that you most certainly would have at that point in time. Sounds silly to me.

    Or does it not matter at all because ground and flying mounts are functionally the same
    Who's making that argument? Not me, of course.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
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