Flying really does make the world lose any sense of danger

[ellieg]

Okay. You're making up an ideal scenario, here. If you happen to spot a player of the opposite faction, most of the time one, two, or three of the following will be true:
• You'll be still engaged with a mob group;
• The opposite player will still be engaged with a mob group;
• The two of you will still be engaged with a mob group.

On top of that, it takes three whole seconds to summon up your mount. In those three seconds, the opposite player can easily catch up to you on foot, or at least get in range to toss a quick ranged attack to keep you in combat and prevent your daring escape.


Then I would ask why did you not get on your 100% ground mount that you most certainly would have at that point in time. Sounds silly to me.


Who's making that argument? Not me, of course.

All im trying to say is that the addition of flying mounts has changed how world pvp plays out. Whether its minor in your opinion or not.

So im glad you agree that there is in fact a change. Im not interested in debating the significance of the change. Due to the fact that there is a change at all, is why some players are upset

[Kralljin]

Not reasonable to you because you don't like it does not mean it's not reasonable overall.

Simply because it's convient for your argument, doesn't mean you can just "no, it's not" and dispel any issues with your argument.

An argument is supposed to offer an alternative view, provide some reasons to it, your arguments ignores that there is content designed around flying while also disregarding that any player is at a severe disadvantage that chooses not to fly.

It is really basic logic that certain options cannot coexist, especially in video games, sometimes you can only have one or the other, because they will cannibalize each other.
Back when Blizzard designed Vanilla, they surely had some intent behind not adding flight to the game, because they realized it would dominate how players interact with the world and chose not to add as anyone would then naturally use flying.

It's also why Blizzard decided to axe 10man Heroic, because it was obvious that the playerbase gravited towards 10man Heroic, not because it was the objectively superior experience, but simply because it had less baggege attached to it.

Certain elements are designed around flight, you cannot shut your eyes and pretends it's not there, flying isn't one of those things that you can just ignore.
Especially in MMO's there is barely anything that doesn't touch upon other elements because players all partake in a shared world.

Even something basic as the zones are designed around flying, i doubt a zone such as Blade's Edge or Netherstorm would exist without flying, the fact that they are designed around flying comes naturally at the detriment of the people that do not like flying.

That's not their problem, it's your problem for not liking a feature that's included in the game. There are pros and cons to using or not using it. Pick your poison.

You do realize that the entire discussion is actually supposed to discuss those pros and cons of flying?

Of course, "don't fly" is logically is neither pro nor con, because it's a pointless argument.

Not everyone engages in that content. Next?

Hm, maybe if that content wasn't centered around flying, people that don't want to fly would engage in it?

Imagine that.

Same concept as flying. "Sorry guys, I don't like flying, I'll be there in a few minutes". It's a risk you're going to take not wanting to fly in a game where flying is an option.

People will mock you even more for that.

You are so damn detached from reality if you believe that people would just accept that as an answer not make fun of you for it.

Please don't forget that there are people who RP in this game too. Maybe they RP as a ground adventurer.

You're come up with more asisine solutions.

Transferring to a different servers with your characters, leaving your friends & guild behind, so i can do some RP on an RP Server.
What's your next suggestion? Do RP on a non RP realms?

75% of statistics are made up on the spot. Optional features can vary in how much they affect your game. Those statistics may not be as critical to someone else as they may be to you.

Ground Mounts offer 100% speed.
Epic flying is 280%.

That by itself is already pretty close to being thrice as fast - which is utterly undisputable because math.
Throw in the fact that you automatically avoid any mob on the ground and especially larger obstacles (Lakes, Mountains, Gorges, etc..), quite easily makes it four times as fast.

This isn't made up, flying is exorbitant boost for the players mobility.

Wrong because you're bringing up a problem that isn't a problem. I don't play baseball and complain that I have to hit things with a bat. I go into baseball knowing I have to hit things with a bat.

Again, shitty comparison.

Imagine if Blizzard created a soccer field where you are supposed to play soccer, then one day Blizzard decides that when you play soccer on this field you are allowed to use your hands as well, even if you're not the goalkeeper.

Of course, anyone interested in winning games on this soccer field will from then on use their hands, not because it necessarily results in a better experience, but rather because it grants them an advantage.
Anyone who chooses not to use their hands will then always be at a disadvantage for obvious reasons.
"Don't use your hands" is not a reasonable solutions for those players, because they also naturally want to have an even playing field with their opponent.

I'm processing your posts just fine. You're assuming that I stated this was a topic about removing flying, which I clearly said I wasn't yet you accuse me of strawman? Let's not be dishonest.

Mate, this entire paragraph of yours

You thinking it's a non-answer doesn't make it a non-answer. It's common sense. TBC is what TBC is. We knew what it was from when it was out 14 years ago and people STILL make silly complaints about it. It reminds me of these younger generation gamers who came to the Retro gaming subreddit and complained about how we need to get online with our 8-bit Nintendo games.

Makes no fucking sense in this context because no one argued to change TBCC, yet you make the arguments about "we knew it was coming but people still complain" and those people even remind you others who want to change retro games.

Get real.

[Ielenia]

All im trying to say is that the addition of flying mounts has changed how world pvp plays out. Whether its minor in your opinion or not.

Not really. It's still the same thing: low level/gear player gets ambushed by high level/gear player and gets owned. Low level/gear player is likely not able to escape because he cannot get out of combat since high level/gear keeps pestering the low level/gear player with quick ranged attacks to keep the other in combat. Low level/gear eventually dies, unless saved by getting into town or coming across high level/gear members of their faction.

So im glad you agree that there is in fact a change. Im not interested in debating the significance of the change. Due to the fact that there is a change at all, is why some players are upset

Technically, the "significance of the change" is worth discussing, since it goes to show the validity of the complains about such change. There is such a thing as "a storm in a tea cup", you know?

[ellieg]

Not really. It's still the same thing: low level/gear player gets ambushed by high level/gear player and gets owned. Low level/gear player is likely not able to escape because he cannot get out of combat since high level/gear keeps pestering the low level/gear player with quick ranged attacks to keep the other in combat. Low level/gear eventually dies, unless saved by getting into town or coming across high level/gear members of their faction.


Technically, the "significance of the change" is worth discussing, since it goes to show the validity of the complains about such change. There is such a thing as "a storm in a tea cup", you know?

It is different than it was in vanilla. This difference is what some ppl don't like and they'd enjoy the game more if this difference wasn't here.

[ShadowHopper]

Worlds not dangerous enough for you? Become the danger.

https://streamable.com/zal7gs

https://streamable.com/m45o1u

[Necromantic]

Simply because it's convient for your argument, doesn't mean you can just "no, it's not" and dispel any issues with your argument.

An argument is supposed to offer an alternative view, provide some reasons to it, your arguments ignores that there is content designed around flying while also disregarding that any player is at a severe disadvantage that chooses not to fly.

It is really basic logic that certain options cannot coexist, especially in video games, sometimes you can only have one or the other, because they will cannibalize each other.
Back when Blizzard designed Vanilla, they surely had some intent behind not adding flight to the game, because they realized it would dominate how players interact with the world and chose not to add as anyone would then naturally use flying.

It's also why Blizzard decided to axe 10man Heroic, because it was obvious that the playerbase gravited towards 10man Heroic, not because it was the objectively superior experience, but simply because it had less baggege attached to it.

Certain elements are designed around flight, you cannot shut your eyes and pretends it's not there, flying isn't one of those things that you can just ignore.
Especially in MMO's there is barely anything that doesn't touch upon other elements because players all partake in a shared world.

Even something basic as the zones are designed around flying, i doubt a zone such as Blade's Edge or Netherstorm would exist without flying, the fact that they are designed around flying comes naturally at the detriment of the people that do not like flying.

Which is exactly what I'm telling you that you cannot do. Glad you agree!

You do realize that the entire discussion is actually supposed to discuss those pros and cons of flying?

Of course, "don't fly" is logically is neither pro nor con, because it's a pointless argument.

Nope, it's only pointing out how people tend to over-think it, which I'm seeing a lot of.

Hm, maybe if that content wasn't centered around flying, people that don't want to fly would engage in it?

Imagine that.

lol no. You need flying to do Kara. Some people don't even care about raiding. Some people just like PVP. Some people go off the beaten path. I could go on and on.

People will mock you even more for that.

You are so damn detached from reality if you believe that people would just accept that as an answer not make fun of you for it.

That matters only if you care what randoms think. People get mocked for twinking but that doesn't stop them.

You're come up with more asisine solutions.

Transferring to a different servers with your characters, leaving your friends & guild behind, so i can do some RP on an RP Server.
What's your next suggestion? Do RP on a non RP realms?

I'm sorry you think my comments are "asinine". Your opinion is noted.

Nobody mentioned switching servers. Do not "strawman". You don't have to be on an RP server to RP.

Ground Mounts offer 100% speed.
Epic flying is 280%.

That by itself is already pretty close to being thrice as fast - which is utterly undisputable because math.
Throw in the fact that you automatically avoid any mob on the ground and especially larger obstacles (Lakes, Mountains, Gorges, etc..), quite easily makes it four times as fast.

This isn't made up, flying is exorbitant boost for the players mobility.

If you're going to toss around the defense of "undisputed math", at least get the math right. And you're assuming everybody has 280% speed, which they do not. Again, it was not common at all.

Again, shitty comparison.

Imagine if Blizzard created a soccer field where you are supposed to play soccer, then one day Blizzard decides that when you play soccer on this field you are allowed to use your hands as well, even if you're not the goalkeeper.

Of course, anyone interested in winning games on this soccer field will from then on use their hands, not because it necessarily results in a better experience, but rather because it grants them an advantage.
Anyone who chooses not to use their hands will then always be at a disadvantage for obvious reasons.
"Don't use your hands" is not a reasonable solutions for those players, because they also naturally want to have an even playing field with their opponent.

Starting out your comments with nonconstructive statements is silly. Then replying with a completely twisted version of a comparison given to you is even sillier.

Mate, this entire paragraph of yours

Makes no fucking sense in this context because no one argued to change TBCC, yet you make the arguments about "we knew it was coming but people still complain" and those people even remind you others who want to change retro games.

Get real.

If it makes no sense to you, that's more of a you problem. And I mean that will all due respect. Your distortions and strawman arguments are superfluous.

[Kralljin]

Nope, it's only pointing out how people tend to over-think it, which I'm seeing a lot of.

I think that's more of case of you "underthinking" things.

lol no. You need flying to do Kara. Some people don't even care about raiding. Some people just like PVP. Some people go off the beaten path. I could go on and on.

You once again miss the point, that content is effectively dead for them by default and they get nothing else.
If you're interested in interacting with the world, you won't get around flying in TBC.

That matters only if you care what randoms think. People get mocked for twinking but that doesn't stop them.

Because people that twink will easily stay in their own bubble and don't interact with others outside their group.
Once again, you are coming up with the most terrible comparison that are so plain different in their nature.

Do you expect anyone will apply to a "We don't teleport you to the dungeon!" group?
Or no one would comment on such a rather odd condition?

Nobody mentioned switching servers. Do not "strawman". You don't have to be on an RP server to RP.

Doing RP on a Non RP server is about as suitable as expecting World PvP on a PVE Server.
The people you are playing with aren't there to do RP, that's why they play on a server that's not flagged as RP.

C'mon, this is again such basic logic.

And you're assuming everybody has 280% speed, which they do not. Again, it was not common at all.

Considering how Blizzard has done jackshit to keep it uncommon when we look how the situation has developed over the years, that's a terrible argument.
Putting aside how common it is on TBCC.

Starting out your comments with nonconstructive statements is silly. Then replying with a completely twisted version of a comparison given to you is even sillier.

No, there is no "twist" here.
This is your "just don't fly" argument applied to another scenario.

If it makes no sense to you, that's more of a you problem. And I mean that will all due respect. Your distortions and strawman arguments are superfluous.

Nobody has argued for the removal of Flying in TBCC, yet you address that very argument.
If you raise an argument that no one made, then counter that argument, that is strawman.

[Necromantic]

I think that's more of case of you "underthinking" things.

Of course! Someone over-thinking something will think anyone else is "under-thinking" it.

You once again miss the point, that content is effectively dead for them by default and they get nothing else.
If you're interested in interacting with the world, you won't get around flying in TBC.

It very well may be dead for them but that's their choice and the risk they take if they're willing to even go that route.

Because people that twink will easily stay in their own bubble and don't interact with others outside their group.
Once again, you are coming up with the most terrible comparison that are so plain different in their nature.

Do you expect anyone will apply to a "We don't teleport you to the dungeon!" group?

You're stating they're terrible because you either 1) don't like them or 2) are too proud to tell the opposition "that's a good point". I'm leaning towards 2, which is very common. A person presents a good point and the other person simply says "that's no good" without really telling why. They sometimes try to by distorting the analogy but that logical fallacy never wins.

You're misunderstanding. I didn't say the group will not teleport you, I said you do not want to be because you want to immerse yourself so much that you just want to ride there. Two separate entities, friend.

Doing RP on a Non RP server is about as suitable as expecting World PvP on a PVE Server.
The people you are playing with aren't there to do RP, that's why they play on a server that's not flagged as RP.

C'mon, this is again such basic logic.

Not always true. There are people who love to RP but play on the server they do because that's where their friend(s) went. And I've seen plenty of RP-type activity on my non-RP server. My favorite was the healer in a BG who didn't want to heal because she "RP'd as an anti-Alliance witch".

[quote]Considering how Blizzard has done jackshit to keep it uncommon when we look how the situation has developed over the years, that's a terrible argument.
Putting aside how common it is on TBCC.

Can you provide me with the data to show how common it is? Please do not try turning the tables, just answer please.

Nobody has argued for the removal of Flying in TBCC, yet you address that very argument.

Another strawman argument. I've never one said they were going to nor held that position. Someone said they do not like flying as they do not find it immersive. I just said "So don't fly".

If you raise an argument that no one made, then counter that argument, that is strawman.

Please see above Sorry for the coup-de-grace. All in good fun, friend.

[Kralljin]

Of course! Someone over-thinking something will think anyone else is "under-thinking" it.

When somebody sums up are rather complex topic with a sentence such as "don't use it", i'm more inclined to believe that it's them underthinking it because they either ignore or disregard critical pieces.

MMO's, due to players sharing one world, are pretty complex games, "easy solutions" rarely exist.

A good example are World buffs in Classic, "Don't use them" was certainly not a statisfying solution for the majority of the playerbase.
Either people quit (among other things) due them or dealt with them, despite being anything but a fun mechanic.

It very well may be dead for them but that's their choice and the risk they take if they're willing to even go that route.

"risk" is the wrong word here, you're just not getting anything.
However, it more serves a warning that the game is going into a different direction and they may no longer be the target audience.

You're stating they're terrible because you either 1) don't like them or 2) are too proud to tell the opposition "that's a good point". I'm leaning towards 2, which is very common. A person presents a good point and the other person simply says "that's no good" without really telling why. They sometimes try to by distorting the analogy but that logical fallacy never wins.

Here's the crux: There is no point in your argument.

If somebody prefers flying, that's fine, some people prefer the convenience of it, which is a fair point, i can see where they are coming from.

However, the response to the criticism of flying with "Don't use it" is not a fair point because it disregards important elements that are tied to flying, such as those people having less content available (as more and more content is designed around flying) and they are at a disadvantage that involves any outdoor activity.

You're misunderstanding. I didn't say the group will not teleport you, I said you do not want to be because you want to immerse yourself so much that you just want to ride there. Two separate entities, friend.

I think that will not change the response of the respective group.

If you are somewhere out in the world and get invited to a group, then decline the port with the reason "i don't like to be teleported", then most people will just /facepalm at you, or, depending on role, outright kick you and look for another person.

Not always true. There are people who love to RP but play on the server they do because that's where their friend(s) went. And I've seen plenty of RP-type activity on my non-RP server. My favorite was the healer in a BG who didn't want to heal because she "RP'd as an anti-Alliance witch".

And i haven't, but thanks for the standard inclusion of anecdotal evidence.

Can you provide me with the data to show how common it is? Please do not try turning the tables, just answer please.

You can make about 400-500g/h in TBC.

I am going to take a wild guess that most people are willing to spend around 10h of their time for epic flying.

Another strawman argument. I've never one said they were going to nor held that position. Someone said they do not like flying as they do not find it immersive. I just said "So don't fly".

At this point it's just a parody, you literally say that "people act surprised about feature in a 14 old game" (as if anyone was surprised at about flying in TBCC) and then further elaborate how those people remind of others that want to change "8bit retro games".

I am having a "it's not my wallet" moment right now.

[Ielenia]

It is different than it was in vanilla. This difference is what some ppl don't like and they'd enjoy the game more if this difference wasn't here.

It's a pity they don't have World of Warcraft Classic to avoid all those nuisances and-- OH WAIT.

Again, the "world PvP" has not changed much to the point of how many people are complaining. And if they're complaining about flying in TBC, well... first, they're almost a decade and a half late, and second, World of Warcraft Classic still exists. What they're doing is the equivalent of jumping into the pool and complain they're getting wet.

[Necromantic]

When somebody sums up are rather complex topic with a sentence such as "don't use it", i'm more inclined to believe that it's them underthinking it because they either ignore or disregard critical pieces.

MMO's, due to players sharing one world, are pretty complex games, "easy solutions" rarely exist.

A good example are World buffs in Classic, "Don't use them" was certainly not a statisfying solution for the majority of the playerbase.
Either people quit (among other things) due them or dealt with them, despite being anything but a fun mechanic.

That's another you problem then. While I understand that most of the complaints are not genuine but rather people trying to wind others up, occam's razor.

[quote]"risk" is the wrong word here, you're just not getting anything.
However, it more serves a warning that the game is going into a different direction and they may no longer be the target audience.

I don't think this was responding to the appropriate quote as the response does not have anything to do with what you quoted.

Here's the crux: There is no point in your argument.

If somebody prefers flying, that's fine, some people prefer the convenience of it, which is a fair point, i can see where they are coming from.

However, the response to the criticism of flying with "Don't use it" is not a fair point because it disregards important elements that are tied to flying, such as those people having less content available (as more and more content is designed around flying) and they are at a disadvantage that involves any outdoor activity.

But there is a point. If there wasn't one, you wouldn't keep replying to me.

And as I've said more than once, that's the risk they take, IF.... that's their intent.

I think that will not change the response of the respective group.

If you are somewhere out in the world and get invited to a group, then decline the port with the reason "i don't like to be teleported", then most people will just /facepalm at you, or, depending on role, outright kick you and look for another person.

Maybe they will, maybe they won't. You're trying to play hypotheticals in the sense of what you would do.

And i haven't, but thanks for the standard inclusion of anecdotal evidence.

Inclusion or not, you do not know why everyone plays. You do not know why each person plays on the server they play on. People play on servers because that's where their friends play, not because they really want to. Some people play on PVP servers because friends do when they have no interest in PVP.

You can make about 400-500g/h in TBC.

I am going to take a wild guess that most people are willing to spend around 10h of their time for epic flying.

You didn't answer my question. I didn't ask you for made up statistics, I asked you for actual data.

At this point it's just a parody, you literally say that "people act surprised about feature in a 14 old game" (as if anyone was surprised at about flying in TBCC) and then further elaborate how those people remind of others that want to change "8bit retro games".

I am having a "it's not my wallet" moment right now.

I'm just trying to show you the non-sequiturs in your responses. Thank you for telling me what I said. Can you explain what about them you're confused about?

- - - Updated - - -

It's a pity they don't have World of Warcraft Classic to avoid all those nuisances and-- OH WAIT.

Again, the "world PvP" has not changed much to the point of how many people are complaining. And if they're complaining about flying in TBC, well... first, they're almost a decade and a half late, and second, World of Warcraft Classic still exists. What they're doing is the equivalent of jumping into the pool and complain they're getting wet.

I think people really do know this but again, are just trying to wind people up by complaining about a feature that has been in the game since that expansion came out.

If they would be happier if it wasn't there, good for them, but it's not going anywhere. The simplest and most common sense solutions are seemingly causing some unwarranted and unintentional distress.

[Kralljin]

That's another you problem then.

I really have no idea what you are referring to.

Is it the part where i state that "MMO's are complex, hence no easy solutions exist"? Where i believe that reply makes no sense.
Or is it about World buffs? Where i'm pretty baffled that you want argue that bad game design is a "player problem".

I don't think this was responding to the appropriate quote as the response does not have anything to do with what you quoted.

I think the response is appropriate as arguing about the risks of not flying in the context of "less content" makes no fucking sense to me.

But there is a point. If there wasn't one, you wouldn't keep replying to me.

Wat.

I am making the argument that there is no point to it.
Someone arguing with you and telling you that yours is nonsense does not prove that you have a point, that's not how it works.

By that logic, i would prove that your argument has no point when i stop replying?
I mean...serves me right, but i don't think that's how it works.

Maybe they will, maybe they won't. You're trying to play hypotheticals in the sense of what you would do.

Do you have that little experience with people that you need a confirmation that most don't like it when you waste their time for completely made up reasons?

Some people play on PVP servers because friends do when they have no interest in PVP.

Because even PvP Servers have PvE Content.

Non RP Servers are devoid of RP content because those people are found in RP Servers.
The same way you will not encounter a lot of world PvP on PvE Servers.

It can exist in theory, but that's not why these servers exist, nor is any fringe ocurrence relevant for the general population on the server.
If two people decide to turn on PvP on a PvE Server, doesn't mean the server is somehow a place for World PvP now.

You didn't answer my question. I didn't ask you for made up statistics, I asked you for actual data.

You're asking for something that you damn well know does not exist because there is no TBC Classic armory, nor achievement system tied to it which could verify this.
But any surrounding facts point towards it being easily available to most people because people brought in a lot of gold from Classic and there are tons of guides on how to make gold in TBC which reduce the grind for 5k gold down to a minimum.

Heck, by just questing at cap you can get over 5k if you have enough quests open.

You have very legitimate indicators that epic flying is easily available, especially for those that actually want to go out into the world and do stuff.

I'm just trying to show you the non-sequiturs in your responses. Thank you for telling me what I said. Can you explain what about them you're confused about?

Because arguing that those people remind you of people that want to change restro games is just false.

People are however making an observation and stating their opinion

People played Classic (which is completely free of flying)
People played TBC (which introduced flying)

Some people come to the conclusion that those arguments the lack of flight enhancing their experience are true.
There is no "we should change TBCC" involved, nobody is asking for that.

And pointing out about how long flying has existed on Retail follows suit.
If you want to see how a game feels without flying, then it's best to play a version of the game that has been designed completely without flying, which is only Classic and that wasn't available for quite some time now.
I say it again, the transition from Classic to TBC is the best point to form an educated opinion on the flight vs. no flight argument, because Classic is the only version of WoW completely devoid of flying.

Hence citing at the age of this debate is stupid, because not everybody was present back then when flying was introduced, nor might have an actual opinion on this matter based on their experience because it was almost over 15 years ago.

[GUZ]

Flying is amazing. Nobody wants to kill trash that doesn’t drop shit you dont need.

[Necromantic]

I really have no idea what you are referring to.

This doesn't surprise me, honestly.

Is it the part where i state that "MMO's are complex, hence no easy solutions exist"? Where i believe that reply makes no sense.
Or is it about World buffs? Where i'm pretty baffled that you want argue that bad game design is a "player problem".

Strawman argument. I never said that bad game design is a player problem.

I think the response is appropriate as arguing about the risks of not flying in the context of "less content" makes no fucking sense to me.

Yeah, friend. I think you quoted the wrong thing because that response doesn't go to that comment.

Wat.

I am making the argument that there is no point to it.
Someone arguing with you and telling you that yours is nonsense does not prove that you have a point, that's not it works.

No, that's called "winding someone up." If you honestly feel someone doesn't have a point, you don't keep responding to them. The only reason I'm responding to you is because you seem overly confused and I'm just trying to help you understand.

By that logic, i would prove that that argument has no point when i stop replying?
I mean...serves me right, but i don't think that's how it works.

Do you have that little experience with people that you need a confirmation that most don't like it when you waste their time for completely made up reasons?

You're still making wild assumptions, no matter how you try to spin it. You're assuming everyone else thinks like you.

Because even PvP Servers have PvE Content.

Non RP Servers are devoid of RP content because those people are found in RP Servers.
The same way you will not encounter a lot of world PvP on PvE Servers.

That's not the point. And I'll be honest, I really do think you knew that already and were just playing the devil's advocate. Please don't do that either, it's really unnecessary at this point.

You're asking for something that you damn well know does not exist because there is TBC Classic armory, nor achievement system tied to it which could verify this.
But any surrounding facts point towards it being easily available to most people because people brought in a lot of gold from Classic and there are tons of guides on how to make gold in TBC which reduce the grind for 5k gold down to a minimum.

Heck, by just questing at cap you can get over 5k if you have enough quests open.

You have very legitimate indicators that epic flying is easily available, especially for those that actually want to go out into the world and do stuff.

Hold on, friend. You're trying to pass of your comments as statistical facts. I'm only asking where you got that data from because your views seem to differ from anyone else I've ever talked to. I figured you had some piece of information that wasn't readily available. *shrug*

I've seen similar comments where someone makes claims of their outputs and cannot fathom why others do not have the same outputs when there are so many variables in their inputs.

Because arguing that those people remind you of people that want to change restro games is just false.

Oh no, it's very true. They really do remind me of that, friend.

People are however making an observation and stating their opinion

Great! Me too!

People played Classic (which is completely free of flying)
People played TBC (which introduced flying)

Some people come to the conclusion that those arguments the lack of flight enhancing their experience are true.
There is no "we should change TBCC" involved, nobody is asking for that.

Nobody said they were in here. You keep stating that and going after me for it. Did you read someone else say it and confuse me for them?

And pointing out about how long flying has existed on Retail follows suit.
If you want to see how a game feels without flying, then it's best to play a version of the game that has been designed completely without flying, which is only Classic and that wasn't available for quite some time now.
I say it again, the transition from Classic to TBC is the best point to form an educated opinion on the flight vs. no flight argument, because Classic is the only version of WoW completely devoid of flying.

Great! Nobody said that they couldn't have their opinions on it. However, they should expect that people will counter with their opinions. There is no "right or wrong" but there is a "will not happen".

Hence citing at the age of this debate is stupid, because not everybody was present back then when flying was introduced, nor might have an actual opinion on this matter based on their experience because it was almost over 15 years ago.

I'm sure not everyone was but you won't ever convince me that the majority weren't.

[Kralljin]

This doesn't surprise me, honestly.

Yeah and that ends the debate for me right there.

When you reply to a paragraph that refers to two points, but even refuse to elaborate what you are referring to, then i have no further interest in discussing anything with you.
That's just the final straw in this absolutely tiresome debate with someone who pretends that a completely clunky "alternative" is an actual option to certain players.

[kneehidude]

Here's the bloody irony: Most PvP Servers became Horde Servers because of World PvP.

Most of these servers became that way because one side ganked the other into transferring.

Which is exactly my point. One side of the playerbase turned it into un fun garbage. WPvP is fun every now and then but people quickly get irritated by it. Which is why these imbalances become a thing.

Faction transfers did not kill WPvP. Flying didn't kill WPvP.

Not having a reward (it being it's own reward) and some people just not learning when to take it down a notch (if it's red it's dead mentality) is what killed WPvP.

Additionally, people not fighting fair (IE killing lowbies, kill people already fighting something, killing people as part of a group)

[Kralljin]

Which is exactly my point.

If that was your point, then your post much misses the entire "why they ended up this way".
Especially when you also write

If people loved WPvP as you claim, these type of server imbalances wouldn't exist.

Sorry, your post doesn't even mention Phase 2 or the TBC BG queue times, it just cites those stats and says "there, PvP servers are lopsided, everyone actually hates World PvP".

Not having a reward (it being it's own reward) and some people just not learning when to take it down a notch (if it's red it's dead mentality) is what killed WPvP.

This is such a massive excuse to deflect from what flying actually allows players to do.

First off, because of flying, you run into less people, you can't have world pvp without running into other people.
Without flying, everybody is on the ground and thus more visible.
With Flying, people are constantly in the air, even if i wanted to kill them, i don't even see them or they are out of range.

Next to that, they can avoid fights so much more easily, when i saw someone looting an herb in Classic, even if they managed to get onto their mount, that didn't mean they were gone, if you had a decent slow / root, you could still easily catch them and force a fight.

If you fail to get them into combat within 3 seconds, they're gone, because you will not catch them.
With flying, you can avoid fights so much more easily because once you're on the mount, you're basically invincible for anything but oneshots, without flying, you're not safe, not even close.

Without flying, you're not out of the woods simply because you're on a mount, not even close if people wanted to hunt you down.

Stop treating World PvP as this binary thing, World PvP is at its best when it occurs naturally, yet for that people actually need to meet each other and not have a 3 second "get out of jail" spell at the ready, so they can disengage whenever they feel like it.

Did flying "kill" World PvP?
No, for the sole reason that i wouldn't say it's dead, but the threat that an enemy player represents is heavily diminished because of it, as you can just mount up to avoid any confrontation.
This option did not exist in Classic.

This entire argument is basically:
"A murder victim got shot, hence the stabwound didn't hurt him"

[Merin]

Flying is fine, just needs gameplay designed around it. Kudos to whoever else said that in the topic, its the right answer.

If they want to get rid of flying, they need to open back up development on ground transports and its physics and mechanics and how you can interact with the environment again. There's no shortage of games with cool exploration and ground mount usage now. With all of the unlocks they like to do lately, Metroidvania style mechanics could be a possibility, too.

If they want to keep flying, they should reopen development on flight mechanics and introduce meaningful air interaction, air/vertical exploration, etc.

Either direction you pick, there's a lot of cool things you could do with the exploration and traversal part of the game.

But lets be real, it's Blizzard, the talent is long gone so it'll be a time gate supplemented with stuffing as many mobs into the roads as possible. Get out of the world, get into HALLWAYS: EXPANSION 8, SEASON 3.

[Necromantic]

Yeah and that ends the debate for me right there.

When you reply to a paragraph that refers to two points, but even refuse to elaborate what you are referring to, then i have no further interest in discussing anything with you.
That's just the final straw in this absolutely tiresome debate with someone who pretends that a completely clunky "alternative" is an actual option to certain players.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I hope you have a good weekend.

[Thrif]

"For no reason"? Interesting. You realise you are saying there is no reason to use a ground mount, right?.....think that through.

In an area where you can also use flying, yes, there aren't? Flying is faster and more convenient. Nobody chooses a ground mount over the alternative. The one exception would be if someone had a ground mount they really loved and wanted to use, or for some RP reason.

- - - Updated - - -

It's not a bad design decision, and apparently certain players actually want to "be inconvenienced". It's the whole point behind the "dangers of the world" argument, running into mobs and other players, etc, while questing and PvP'ing.

The poster I'm currently responding to is a perfect example of that.

Yes, exactly. Being inconvenienced can be a good thing.

But players should not have to choose to be inconvenienced, because literally no one ever will.

Thats the whole point. Having a dangerous world that you need to traverse can be inconveniencing but good. But literally nobody will decide to do so if flying is an option.

Hence why "just don't fly" is an objectively poor answer which is my whole point.