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  1. #641
    Quote Originally Posted by gcsmith View Post
    The Sigil is probably tied to his soul, and a mourneblade can scar the soul.

    - - - Updated - - -



    We know where he's going, they've mentioned the sepulchre since day 1, and his portal looks like The guardian of the first one's magic.
    We do not know that for sure and even if it is, what is it? What does it do? Who are the firsts ones? Why are they so powerful? We barely know anything at all and it's not mysterious, it just brings a massive amount of apathy to the story telling. We have no agency because we don't have any idea who anyone truly is or what their motives are.

  2. #642
    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    We do not know that for sure and even if it is, what is it? What does it do? Who are the firsts ones? Why are they so powerful? We barely know anything at all and it's not mysterious, it just brings a massive amount of apathy to the story telling. We have no agency because we don't have any idea who anyone truly is or what their motives are.
    We do know for sure, it's said multiple times, it's even said by the Primus as a reason for crafting new sigils before we attempt the raid (in the lore) so we have them ready in case we fail.

    We may not know his exact motives (beyond enslave everything) or what he did before hand. But we know his target.
    For the Alliance, and for Azeroth!

  3. #643
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Having marinated and thought about this cutscene for a while now I think I can confidently state that it might be in the lower tier of cutscenes if we go purely by its merits as a storytelling device, though I still think the Saurfang v. Sylvanas ones ekes out a victory as the absolute low point in WoW storytelling. Not because the cutscene was badly presented, but because of what it meant for the BfA expansion as a whole.

    That being said I don't think the cutscene deserves all the hate. I guess it did all that could be expected when considering that the writers probably had to contrive some defining moment for Sylvanas to switch sides.

    Though then again, I suppose the cutscene might be best be seen by its merits in hindsight, once Sylvanas and her story has run its course. I don't really have a lot of faith that the Sylvanas redemption is going to hold much of any weight at all, but I could think of ways to at least somewhat mitigate the worst of it.
    To be honest and objective, it's clear that we have to wait for the Sylvanas novel to get the whole picture. Likewise, taken apart from its context I think the cinematic was even THAT bad. I mean, the mere execution of Sylvanas' realization by drawing the painfully obvious parallel of words' choice between the Jailer and the various entities who violated her soul and mind had quite the decent touch.

    Unfortunately, it's indeed the context that causes all the issues. This grand revelation about the Jailer's goal was a revelation to no one but Sylvanas, making her look absolutely stupid compared to the audience as well as compared to the people protecting the Shadowlands. That's not the intent obviously, I'm pretty sure we're supposed to believe Zovaal manipulated the darkness within Sylvanas to turn her into an ally, but that just doesn't work as an excuse and doesn't save Sylvanas from looking absolutely idiotic. In the end, the Jailer's intent and methods were apparent to everyone but nonetheless Sylvanas played the part of overly confident villain, only to falter when Jailer stated what everyone and their mother already understood at that point (made even more blatantly predictable once realized how Zovaal was the one who came up with the Lich King's plan, not to mention the current alliance with freaking Kel'Thuzad, of all people).

    Long story short, in a way I agree that there was nothing particularly wrong with the cinematic itself, I think it also had a few decent things in it, however it represents the inevitable culmination of a storyline that began to stink by quite a while. Again, we still miss the Sylvanas' novel indeed, but I personally doubt we'll get something more than a great amount of retcons and historical revisions sounding more as retroactive excuses meant to somewhat validate the current state of things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
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    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  4. #644
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    Long story short, in a way I agree that there was nothing particularly wrong with the cinematic itself, I think it also had a few decent things in it, however it represents the inevitable culmination of a storyline that began to stink by quite a while. Again, we still miss the Sylvanas' novel indeed, but I personally doubt we'll get something more than a great amount of retcons and historical revisions sounding more as retroactive excuses meant to somewhat validate the current state of things.
    Retcons are basically the only way to make this storyline remotely coherent even retroactively. Its main problem is that it's handicapped from Day 1 - the key part of the story is that Sylvanas believes the Jailer is not just the guy who sent the Val'kyr to save her from turbohell, but also the only one who can undo reality and that she isn't just some goon, she's his partner without whom it's impossible. This is a point you can back up - without her blowing up the Helm, he's stuck. She's also in a situation where, were she to succeed, none of the people she'd be throwing under the bus to do so would matter as she could simply reverse all the damage. Shadowlands at large is where she learns who she's involved with really is, her excuses slowly giving way as she realizes she's just another tool and finally that the Jailer's means are his ends. This'd all be well and good with him exploiting her fear of eternal hell to get his way and her having plenty of backing to view him a certain way because she's not seen what he's really like and has only heard his side of the story.

    Problem is, the Jailer didn't exist until 2 years ago and their entire pre-Shadowlands dynamic is entirely in the writers' heads, not being available to anyone else. We never see them in any situation except where the Jailer is dominant and she has no leverage over the situation and can only go along with things out of sunk-cost fallacy as she realizes how much she's fucked herself. Couple that with how BFA cast her as a puppy eating lunatic and you need a whole lot of material to both retroactively introduce the dynamic that predisposed her towards doing what she did to help the Jailer, and retconning or underselling the parts of BFA that make the idea of her being a well-intentioned extremist laughable.

    This isn't necessarily a bad or unsalvagable story. But it's a story that plainly wasn't on anyone's mind until Danuser took the reins entirely from Afrasiabi, it has already failed in presenting itself up front and its dependant entirely on retroactively introducing the character dynamics and mentality that were verifiably not in the story up to now.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-07-13 at 02:11 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  5. #645
    Quote Originally Posted by UndedoKoleda View Post
    Ok, if we assume that he was the original Arbiter and the rest of the Eternal Ones brought him down and elected(or simply put) another Arbiter in his place, that means that the Eternal Ones have the power to assign an Arbiter themselves.

    Isn't it weird that at the start of the Shadowlands, the Eternal Ones knew that the current Arbiter was rendered useless(I mean, at the very least the Kyrians knew that the souls they brought were going straight to the Maw, so I assume the rest of the Eternal Ones knew as well, considering the anima drought and all that...). Couldn't they just elect another one, given the circumstances? I mean, it was obvious that the souls were going straight to their dangerous brother, who they themselves imprisoned, yet they didn't seem to care much about that at all.

    Am I missing something crucial here?
    Something that if I give to the bad guys. It is that from the beginning I feel that we did not have to have defended SW. We should be on the Side of Browsbandi and other minor characters.

    The queen of Winter who does not lift a finger complains about Browsbandi? Well, the old Browsbandi can do your job better, we should marter you give the Troll the job.

    PS: Although I am going to clarify that SW I am seeing it from the very outside and just following the plots that I don't care about.

  6. #646
    So we go the Kerrigan's route. And she is mortal again xD What a shitshow.

  7. #647
    Warchief Progenitor Aquarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    So we go the Kerrigan's route. And she is mortal again xD What a shitshow.
    How do you know it? I read somewhere that she will become an Eternal. Not sure if this information is valid.

  8. #648
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    How do you know it? I read somewhere that she will become an Eternal. Not sure if this information is valid.
    Zovaal said it. She helped him restore something that was taken from him so he returned the favor. What was taken from Sylvanas ?

  9. #649
    Warchief Progenitor Aquarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Zovaal said it. She helped him restore something that was taken from him so he returned the favor. What was taken from Sylvanas ?
    Her soul I think.

  10. #650
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    Her soul I think.
    Which make her mortal once again. The blue eye = back to high elf.

  11. #651
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Which make her mortal once again. The blue eye = back to high elf.
    I don't think it makes her mortal, at least no more than it would make dead bois like Uther mortal (i.e.: he's still dead, Sylvanas is still undead).
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  12. #652
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    I don't think it makes her mortal, at least no more than it would make dead bois like Uther mortal (i.e.: he's still dead, Sylvanas is still undead).
    Usually we do not need to look further than the video itself with Blizzard. She is no longer the "Banshee Queen", my take are that she is a high elf (blue eye) now.

  13. #653
    Warchief Progenitor Aquarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Usually we do not need to look further than the video itself with Blizzard. She is no longer the "Banshee Queen", my take are that she is a high elf (blue eye) now.
    I think so too. We will have to place her soul into proper covenant but after what was done I just can’t.

    Don’t wanna even think what will happen to all of us if the Jailer reaches the Sepulcher. That depends what he finds there.
    Last edited by Progenitor Aquarius; 2021-07-16 at 08:42 AM.

  14. #654
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    I think so too. We will have to place her soul into proper covenant but after what was done I just can’t.

    Don’t wanna even think what will happen to all of us if the Jailer will reach the Sepulcher. That depends what he finds there.
    They took the Kerrigan's route, so she will most probably replace at some point the Jailer as Guardian of the damn (though I think the maw will disappear after SL) or replace the Arbiter (or participate in the SL inner working since it is most probably that the SL will be redesigned once the Jailer falls).

  15. #655
    Queen of Forsaken will become Queen of Death

  16. #656
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    The real reason for why the WoW narratives been run into the ground. Apologies in advance for the cringe you will experience for scrolling down.

    I'm happy he's doing what he likes, envious even. But...how on earth didn't Blizzard manage to find anyone in the mean time? Their entire business model revolves around this position. Doesn't even take a genius storyteller. A mediocre one from any TV show would be fine.

  17. #657
    I am Murloc! KOUNTERPARTS's Avatar
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    At this point in time, Steve Danuser has to be aware of his meme status... right? I mean, I get he probably doesn't care, but it's so rampant that he can't possibly not know... right?

  18. #658
    Quote Originally Posted by KaneLivesInDeath View Post
    At this point in time, Steve Danuser has to be aware of his meme status... right? I mean, I get he probably doesn't care, but it's so rampant that he can't possibly not know... right?
    I think, like a lof of Blizzard writes, believes it's a just a small sect of Internet trolls and anyone else actually likes the story.

  19. #659
    The writers have shown their contempt for fans of the story countless times already. Even if they're aware of their reputation, they'll just hide behind a few of the meaner words thrown their way and act like that represents the entirety of the criticism thrown their way.

    To their credit, it isn't just them - FFXIV is often lauded as having the 'best story ever' where MMO's are concerned and it's still plagued with the same sort of nonsense/favouritism. Alphinaud is pushed heavily because he's Yoshi-P's favourite character, for example - and since the community cannot handle grit/consequence even minor characters are shrouded in immense plot armour.

    It sucks, though I generally lean on single player games for my craving of a good story these days.

  20. #660
    I think if Steve actually cared about the legacy of the Warcraft franchise instead of using it to self-serve his ego he'd quit his job and walk away from writing forever.

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