How are we even supposed to sympathise with Sylvanas when she's such a hypocrite?

[Frontenac]

It took long enough, but some people are finally seeing the light and realise that Sylvanas is an evil bitch. We were told years ago that she was using the Forsaken as tools for her survival. Of course, she can accept that others are turned into puppets if it helps her reach her goal (although she seemed to have some very brief qualms about it where Anduin is concerned)! It's her becoming a puppet yet again, like she had been under the Lich King, that she can't accept. Is it hypocritical? Well, yes of course, she's evil! All this "We are all in prison! I will free us all!" It's all rationalization. She actually doesn't give a damned about what happens to our characters. She just wants to be spared the eternity of despair and suffering she experienced when she commited suicide.

"I will not serve." People put emphasis on the word "serve", but "I" is just as much important, if not more. It's the most important word in her vocabulary.

[catalystical]

I don't know where they were going with this

That's the whole point.

[username993720]

Welcome to modern World of Warcraft writing, where characters are supposed to abandon all hatred and anger in favor of a more loving and caring attitude.

Sylvanas: as you said, kicked Bolvar's ass, sent assassins after Thrall, set a trap for Anduin and his entourage, and even tried to assassinate Jaina using her brother. But, now she loves them and cares about them.

Tyrande: hates Sylvanas to her core and desires to sever her head from her body. But now, using the power of Elune's friendship, she's moving towards forgiveness.

Jaina: wanted to dismantle the Horde in Mists of Pandaria, wanted to flood Orgrimmar with a tidal wave, realized her father's words were correct in BfA, but later on seeks peace and atonement.

Personally, it sickens me.
That's why i love Garrosh so much. He doesn't let go of anger and hatred. He embraces it. He's not part of that stupid moral trend that is going on, inside a video game for crying out loud. That's why they got rid of him - because he was true to his nature.

[Super Dickmann]

I dunno, they suffered most of their race (what was left after WOD) being wiped out after the Draenai finally got the balls to get justice for all that genocide the iron horde did.

Physical losses don't really matter much, they give narrative hooks and racial populations are mostly relative. They maintained their characterization which is what counts.

The only problem with the Draenei doing what they did is that Blizzard chose the baffling decision to make Yrel and Grom friends and to require a naaru to show up to tell her what to do, as if Yrel should ever befriend someone who sacrificed her sister to the void or the people who still practice it. The scenario would be approved if Blizzard had allowed the draenei to act on their completely justifiable grievances without any catch.

[Ivarr]

Tyrande: hates Sylvanas to her core and desires to sever her head from her body. But now, using the power of Elune's friendship, she's moving towards forgiveness.

I'd be fine with this as long as either one of them motorboats the other.

[mysticx]

Because family, strong independent women, her sisters will save her and go she has a complete soul now. She is all better and nothing she did matters because she only had half a soul. It wasn't her fault she was being tricked and controlled!

That would be so hilarious, because that would mean Sylvanas isn't edgy anymore, and all her current fans are going to implode from sheer nerd-rage!

...and everybody else is going to be disgusted because it's a "Get out of jail free"-card for *everything* she did, so at that point, finally, *everybody* (Well, almost, there will always be a few bodypillow-huggers left) is going to hate her!

[javierdsv]

I mean, she said "I will never serve"... Not "I will never make others serve me". You're comparing apples with oranges.

Also, she is no longer the darkness filled Sylvanas, she is the General Ranger that died protecting her homeland, you can no longer hate her, there's no point on hating her.

Oh and also, she opposed the Jailer so he would left her behind, and so she could help us stop him once she have gotten what she wanted (her soul).

[gcsmith]

Physical losses don't really matter much, they give narrative hooks and racial populations are mostly relative. They maintained their characterization which is what counts.

The only problem with the Draenei doing what they did is that Blizzard chose the baffling decision to make Yrel and Grom friends and to require a naaru to show up to tell her what to do, as if Yrel should ever befriend someone who sacrificed her sister to the void or the people who still practice it. The scenario would be approved if Blizzard had allowed the draenei to act on their completely justifiable grievances without any catch.

Yeah, the first thing that should have happened with Y'rel in charge after HFC was turn to Grommash and arrest him for his crimes.

[Ivarr]

I mean, she said "I will never serve"... Not "I will never make others serve me". You're comparing apples with oranges.

Applying different rules for yourself than you would apply to others is still the definition of hypocrisy.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

I am unable to sympathize with her after what she has done even after her sacrifice for Blood Elves her negative deeds are not able to break through what I think of her.

[Selastan]

All of this is invalidated by the fact that they're now going to try and paint her as someone even remotely deserving of redemption

Where did I say that? I said she was crazy and needed to be stopped. Doing wrong things for right reasons doesn't make you a hero, it makes you a good villain. Like Illidan.

[sighy]

Now that is a funny joke, implying that Alleria and Vereesa would even be featured in Shadowlands in the first place.

What will happen is that it will be Thrall, Jaina, and Anduin (the holy trinity) to save her.

Alleria openly declared her scorn for what Sylvanas has become previously and has Azeroth side problems(like making sure void elves don't turn into balls of tentacles without her teachings or something) so she has in character reasons to not be there. Vereesa on the other hand got epic levels of character assassination, because the revelation that she knew about the "missing piece" and the Jailer(Whom she literally saw holding it) all along either makes her look either absolutely stupid or Stormrage bros. level of horrible sibling.

[Skayth]

Do not worry, the 12th pre-rendered Sylvanas cinematic is coming, that will help you sympathise with her.

Meanwhile literally every allied race leader like Alleria, Umbric, Moira have been gathering dust for years, but no matter, watch the shiny new CGI Sylvanas cinematic!!

at least they dont kill off yall characters.... when was the last time someone from the alliance died? Varian? and before that? Onyxia?

[Varodoc]

Alleria openly declared her scorn for what Sylvanas has become previously and has Azeroth side problems(like making sure void elves don't turn into balls of tentacles without her teachings or something) so she has in character reasons to not be there. Vereesa on the other hand got epic levels of character assassination, because the revelation that she knew about the "missing piece" and the Jailer(Whom she literally saw holding it) all along either makes her look either absolutely stupid or Stormrage bros. level of horrible sibling.

Question: Did any of you people who say that actually talked to Alleria in-game post-Shadowlands pre-patch? She literally tells you she'll be there to see Sylvanas fall. Quite clearly she was set-up as more preoccupied with Sylvanas' fall than the problems on Azeroth.

[sighy]

Also Godfre and the other two stooges were specifically raised because of their grudge against the Worgen. Their minds were never tampered with.

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Question: Did any of you people who say that actually talked to Alleria in-game post-Shadowlands pre-patch? She literally tells you she'll be there to see Sylvanas fall. Quite clearly she was set-up as more preoccupied with Sylvanas' fall than the problems on Azeroth.

That only really says she wants to be there. Doesn't necessarily stop her from being preoccupied by other stuff, altho i agree that the current story would be better with her in it. Some family drama and all that, however i maintain my sentiment that Vereesa's absence is the more agregious of the two given the context of the short story about her pilgrimage through the Shadowlands.

Edit: If they're saving Vereesa and Alleria showing up,f or some big reunion moment they could deserve more credit than they're currently being given.

[FelPlague]

I don't know where they were going with this

"I will never serve."

i dont see what the problem is?
"I" does not mean "no one"

I will never serve means SHE will never serve.
she didnt say "we will never serve"
she said as you say yourself "I will never serve."
So why does it matter she made others serve?


I does not mean We

[Skirdus]

Where did I say that? I said she was crazy and needed to be stopped. Doing wrong things for right reasons doesn't make you a hero, it makes you a good villain. Like Illidan.

Except Illidan wasn't portrayed as a villain in Legion. He was portrayed as an anti-hero who did very controversial things in order to achieve his goals, only to then turn around and lambaste others for their own perceived flaws as opposed to acknowledging his own *cough*velen*cough*.

Like... Illidan straight-up did villainous shit - such as enslaving the broken draenei, capturing and mutating mag'har orcs, draining the water from Outland, and killing his own soldiers to win a war (and then getting mad when people take issue with this course of action) - and yet all this is handwaved because "he's the only one willing to do what needs to be done" when there are CLEARLY better alternatives than what he's been doing. In a nutshell? It's like Arthas and the Culling of Stratholme, except imagine if instead of portraying Arthas's downfall from a hero to a villain, they continued trying to portray him as an anti-hero who simply did a lot of messed up things in pursuit of justice, even after becoming the Lich King. That's what they tried to with Illidan in Legion, and it was terrible.

Sylvanas is facing an even worse issue where she's very clearly defined herself as a villain and made numerous enemies out of almost everyone at this point, and yet the game is going to TRY and paint her as being able to make up for her villainous actions because "she has the good half of her soul back" and "she's a different person now" when she CLEARLY had free will prior to all this and simply chose to be a bitch for the sake of being a bitch.

My issue isn't with the characters themselves, but rather how the game tries to present them to its audience; and I am sick and tired of terrible villains being portrayed as "edgy heroes" when in reality, they're just terrible villains

[sighy]

Except Illidan wasn't portrayed as a villain in Legion. He was portrayed as an anti-hero who did very controversial things in order to achieve his goals, only to then turn around and lambaste others for their own perceived flaws as opposed to acknowledging his own *cough*velen*cough*.

Like... Illidan straight-up did villainous shit - such as enslaving the broken draenei, capturing and mutating mag'har orcs, draining the water from Outland, and killing his own soldiers to win a war (and then getting mad when people take issue with this course of action) - and yet all this is handwaved because "he's the only one willing to do what needs to be done" when there are CLEARLY better alternatives than what he's been doing. In a nutshell? It's like Arthas and the Culling of Stratholme, except imagine if instead of portraying Arthas's downfall from a hero to a villain, they continued trying to portray him as an anti-hero who simply did a lot of messed up things in pursuit of justice, even after becoming the Lich King. That's what they tried to with Illidan in Legion, and it was terrible.

Sylvanas is facing an even worse issue where she's very clearly defined herself as a villain and made numerous enemies out of almost everyone at this point, and yet the game is going to TRY and paint her as being able to make up for her villainous actions because "she has the good half of her soul back" and "she's a different person now" when she CLEARLY had free will prior to all this and simply chose to be a bitch for the sake of being a bitch.

My issue isn't with the characters themselves, but rather how the game tries to present them to its audience; and I am sick and tired of terrible villains being portrayed as "edgy heroes" when in reality, they're just terrible villains

Pre-Legion Illidan was always portrayed as that guy, who wants to help but makes matters so much worse than they otherwise would have been. Legion at least had the little bit of dignity to frame it as Naaru propaganda from Xe'ra meant to convince you he is the savior, which ultimately backfired. (Cringe as hell, but meh)


Sylvanas always was in that position, where she was an anti-hero for the Horde and villain to the Aliance, which to be perfectly honest worked well. The factions are meant to be enemies so it made sense. Jaina filled a similar role in the Aliance, for a while. Until 8.2.5's twist it was still workable, in that dynamic, for the people that bought into the faction war thing despite Blizzard's best efforts.


At this point the only real way i can see to make it make some sort of sense is that after Greymane's Stormheim stunt the Forsaken(herself included) were effectively screwed and running out of time so she got desperate enough to start making compromises she otherwise wouldn't have, in order to fix the Forsaken afterlife problem and the only way to do that would have been to upend the status quo, with Zovaal whether she likes it or not forced to go along with his shit regardless, because it's not like she had other options available. (But then what's the fucking point of the good half? Assuming that is the case)

[username993720]

I'd be fine with this as long as either one of them motorboats the other.

There are websites for such kinks.

[Varodoc]

Also Godfre and the other two stooges were specifically raised because of their grudge against the Worgen. Their minds were never tampered with.

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That only really says she wants to be there. Doesn't necessarily stop her from being preoccupied by other stuff, altho i agree that the current story would be better with her in it. Some family drama and all that, however i maintain my sentiment that Vereesa's absence is the more agregious of the two given the context of the short story about her pilgrimage through the Shadowlands.

Edit: If they're saving Vereesa and Alleria showing up,f or some big reunion moment they could deserve more credit than they're currently being given.

The fact that Jaina and Thrall are in the raid (this on top of all the spotlight they've been getting since BfA) as opposed to Alleria and maybe Vereesa is preposterous.