If 10.0 is a massive revamp was it worth dealing with Shadowlands?

[NineSpine]

1. That is based on personal preference.
2. Yet a new player is forced to play old content whether they like it or not. Even if your level 6 million you still have to complete the MSQ to move forward.
5. New jobs locked in new expansions.
6. Don't know enough about max level play to comment on.
7. The giant grinds are for leveling alt jobs, the story quests are one and done as far as getting xp goes. They have story replay but from what I heard it gives 0 xp.
8. WOW tried that and players didn't like it.
9. FF XIV still has DPS checks, Ifrit's nails being the first one I remember running into. Kill the nails quickly or wipe.

Did you just respond to my list of reasons people *like* something with a refutation of "That's personal preference"? And you expect me to take anything else you have to say seriously?

[Kohtra]

"Pretty obvious" by what metrics? What data are you basing it on?

People such as yourself said the same thing throughout BfA, yet it was not once reflected in official metrics and earnings. "Trust me bro, it's pretty obvious!" based on negativity on social media surrounding this game holds no water when one's been through it for 13 years straight.

Dude, there are no metrics saying either way. That doesn't mean you automatically default to being correct.

Either I'm right or you're right. There's no metrics to prove either way. All I know is WoW is struggling and FFxiv is definitely not. One is getting a load of terrible press while the other is getting praise. Those aren't metrics, but you can't just sit there and pretend everything is fine.

[Caerrona]

Dude, there are no metrics saying either way. That doesn't mean you automatically default to being correct.

Either I'm right or you're right. There's no metrics to prove either way. All I know is WoW is struggling and FFxiv is definitely not. One is getting a load of terrible press while the other is getting praise. Those aren't metrics, but you can't just sit there and pretend everything is fine.

And the burden of proof is you. You are using feelings to prove you are right. That doesn't mean shit. You made the claim.

Still waiting on square enix and blizzard sources of sub numbers thanks.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Dude, there are no metrics saying either way. That doesn't mean you automatically default to being correct.

Either I'm right or you're right. There's no metrics to prove either way. All I know is WoW is struggling and FFxiv is definitely not. One is getting a load of terrible press while the other is getting praise. Those aren't metrics, but you can't just sit there and pretend everything is fine.

I'll go by the official report, and as of the latest, the game is far from struggling.

The next one will tell how it's been going, not "terrible press". You say there's no metrics to prove anything, yet you know about the game's performance based on... feelings? Them darned feels, maybe some content creator opinions, social media chatter...

All of those things were present throughout both Legion and BfA, yet there was no disaster to be seen. No massive drops, no loss in revenue hurting Blizzard. So forgive me, but I'll continue going by the official reports moving forward as well rather than "I just know OK??"...

[Kohtra]

And the burden of proof is you. You are using feelings to prove you are right. That doesn't mean shit. You made the claim.

Still waiting on square enix and blizzard sources of sub numbers thanks.

You don't automatically default to being correct if I can't prove anything. Please remember that. I'm begging you, stop just assuming everything is fine. It's not healthy and it does no one, including Blizzard any favors.

- - - Updated - - -

I'll go by the official report, and as of the latest, the game is far from struggling.

The next one will tell how it's been going, not "terrible press". You say there's no metrics to prove anything, yet you know about the game's performance based on... feelings? Them darned feels, maybe some content creator opinions, social media chatter...

All of those things were present throughout both Legion and BfA, yet there was no disaster to be seen. No massive drops, no loss in revenue hurting Blizzard. So forgive me, but I'll continue going by the official reports moving forward as well rather than "I just know OK??"...

There was no competition getting massive amounts of praise during any previous expansion. This is a first in WoWs history. Can you at least accept that?

[Queen of Hamsters]

And the burden of proof is you. You are using feelings to prove you are right. That doesn't mean shit. You made the claim.

Still waiting on square enix and blizzard sources of sub numbers thanks.

He don't have them, yet he knows that the game and the company's struggling. Welcome to people's critical thinking in 2021. It's been the same with every single person making the claim that FFXIV is bleeding WoW dry. Not a single one can cite anything but the viewership of streamers, 3rd party data and content creator opinions... Oh, and toxicity on social media. As if this game hasn't always gotten bad press and been at it worst state ever if going by MMO-C or Twitter or whatever else...

Maybe he'll be proved right with the next quarterly from the company, but if BfA's anything to go by, he won't be.

[Accendor]

Jailer is out there doing "Reality's end" stuff. If he's a plot point to usher in a massive 10.0 world revamp and redone systems and classes, etc. do you think that would change your perspective on Shadowlands?

Basically knowing they were doing a ton of work for the massive rework and Shadowlands would just be a WoD to a mega-Legion.

Yes, it would change my view drastically.

[NineSpine]

I'll go by the official report, and as of the latest, the game is far from struggling.

The next one will tell how it's been going, not "terrible press". You say there's no metrics to prove anything, yet you know about the game's performance based on... feelings? Them darned feels, maybe some content creator opinions, social media chatter...

All of those things were present throughout both Legion and BfA, yet there was no disaster to be seen. No massive drops, no loss in revenue hurting Blizzard. So forgive me, but I'll continue going by the official reports moving forward as well rather than "I just know OK??"...

Mythic+ logs show engagement below BFA season 4.
The WoW forums are on fire with hate.
Everything Blizzard says about WoW gets ratioed.
FF14 is experiencing an insane influx of players, and this comes at the tail end of a substantial period of growth *during an expansion*.
The biggest wow streamer started ff14 and his streams blew up larger than normal.

If you can't put these facts together, you aren't acting in good faith.

- - - Updated - - -

He don't have them, yet he knows that the game and the company's struggling. Welcome to people's critical thinking in 2021. It's been the same with every single person making the claim that FFXIV is bleeding WoW dry. Not a single one can cite anything but the viewership of streamers, 3rd party data and content creator opinions... Oh, and toxicity on social media. As if this game hasn't always gotten bad press and been at it worst state ever if going by MMO-C or Twitter or whatever else...

Maybe he'll be proved right with the next quarterly from the company, but if BfA's anything to go by, he won't be.

Quote the previous Blizzard quarterly report. Quote the part where it indicated sub growth. I'll wait.

[natpick]

the game needs a massive revamp bit while its making money hand over first in the state its in, it will never happen,i bet the devs would love to do a huge revamp but the higher ups will not let it happen,shame really when you look at some of the innovative stuff much smaller teams are doing and on smaller budgets.im done with wow but cannot hate it after all this time i just wish for better things for the future players.

[Queen of Hamsters]

There was no competition getting massive amounts of praise during any previous expansion. This is a first in WoWs history. Can you at least accept that?

I saw some pretty heavy praising/brigading for Rift, GW2, SWOTOR and some others during my years here. One was literally marketed with "We're not in Azeroth anymore", and some people fell for the hype.

So no, I won't accept something which isn't historically true. And none of it has any relevance to the performance of the games financially and player-wise.

And since I'm being told someone wanted to see it, because apparently googling is hard:

https://www.wowhead.com/news/activis...re-2000-322172

"World of Warcraft has seen strong reach, engagement, and participation in value added services, along with a particularly high number of new players joining the community for the first time, boosted by initiatives to enhance the onboarding experience."

"Shadowlands continues to drive strong results following its record-setting release in November, with first quarter franchise net bookings growing sharply".

[Kohtra]

I saw some pretty heavy praising/brigading for Rift, GW2, SWOTOR and some others during my years here. One was literally marketed with "We're not in Azeroth anymore", and some people fell for the hype.

So no, I won't accept something which isn't historically true. And none of it has any relevance to the performance of the games financially and player-wise.

You truly believe FFxiv hasn't dramatically surpassed all that previous competition?

Again, I'm begging you, please stop just taking it for granted everything is fine. It's never good. I don't want to fight you, I just want you to accept that maybe things aren't all right.

[Nite92]

Here are some reasons:

1. It has an unbelievably good story.
2. It is based on a model where the vast majority of content and systems are optional and exist for people who like them and want to do them.
3. It doesn't constantly deprecate old content. It makes as much content as possible evergreen.
4. It has very, very simple player power systems, which results in fantastic balance.
5. It constantly adds new jobs (classes) and makes them very easy to experience without having to jump through alt hoops.
6. It very rarely timegates content.
7. Aside from a handful of cosmetics, there are no giant grinds and certainly no giant grinds that reset every patch.
8. Raid content is all bosses, no trash.
9. Raids are tuned more around mechanics than around hard DPS checks.
10. Very little ilvl inflation.
11. This is only a partial list.

This isn't to say WoW has nothing that is better than FF14, especially from a subjective point of view, but if you can't understand why those points are appealing to people then the problem is you.

I strongly disagree with lots of your points.

2.) Does FF14 not have any "weeklies/dalies"? Because there is lots of stuff in WoW, but it is not mandatory. From what I can tell, the FF community is more casual, and thus power gains are perceived as more optional than in WoW. Wow has so many optional things, that you can do, but don't have to unless you are going for top 500 world rank mythic kills, but still people only getting ATOC feel mandatory.

3.) I am not sure about that point. Was having "DST-like" items really that great? Maybe, maybe not. Also I am not a fan of super linear progression.

4.) In which % range is FF14 balanced, and do raid/dungeon speed run comps vary more than in WoW. Is that an effect of less competition or actual better balance.

5.) That's neat, but just a different approach. Different people like different things. I like my class being a Warlock, and not whatever I feel like rn.

7.) Why is having cosmetics to chase a bad thing? You just above implied that WoW has too little optional content - Seems like a contradiction to me.

8.) That is HORRIBLE design imo. When do people have laughs, make jokes in raids? It is mostly during trash (at least in my guilds).

9.) Which is again bad design imo. I do not want to play a running simulator to beat the boss I want to play my class. Also, WoW has dps-checks, but they are not tight unless you are really pushing world ranks. A raid consisting of dpsers with blue heroic logs, can achieve CE quite easily. It is still something to worry about, but you do not need to be brightest star on the wow sky to do it.

And yes I have worded my first sentence strongly. Obviously the are people that like FF more than WoW.
I only player 15hrs or so of FF, and compared it to a lvl 25 char in WoW. The gameplay just feels so much worse in FF. Maybe it is my bias, but you just get so little, no talents, after 3-4 hours of gameplay I got a new rank that does slightly more damage - wohooo.
Obvioulsy, this is just my opinion. I'd just say FF and WoW are for different types of players.

[NineSpine]

I saw some pretty heavy praising/brigading for Rift, GW2, SWOTOR and some others during my years here. One was literally marketed with "We're not in Azeroth anymore", and some people fell for the hype.

So no, I won't accept something which isn't historically true. And none of it has any relevance to the performance of the games financially and player-wise.

Do you actually not understand the difference between the current situation and speculation about the launch of other MMOs in the past?

[Queen of Hamsters]

You truly believe FFxiv hasn't dramatically surpassed all that previous competition?

Again, I'm begging you, please stop just taking it for granted everything is fine. It's never good. I don't want to fight you, I just want you to accept that maybe things aren't all right.

I'm questioning statements made, not declaring "everything's fine". I'm one of SL's biggest critics and nobody would be happier than me if they got a fire lit under their asses and changed things as a result.

As for FFXIV surpassing the other MMORPgs, I wouldn't know since they don't release sub numbers. I've seen some "accounts made" from FFXIV, and that's it.
This is less about "fighting" and more about you not being able to provide data for the claims you've made, which is exactly what I expected since that's always the case regardless of during which expansion it takes place since WoD and the end of sub numbers being shared.

[Kohtra]

I'm questioning statements made, not declaring "everything's fine". I'm one of SL's biggest critics and nobody would be happier than me if they got a fire lit under their asses and changed things as a result.

As for FFXIV surpassing the other MMORPgs, I wouldn't know since they don't release sub numbers. I've seen some "accounts made" from FFXIV, and that's it.
This is less about "fighting" and more about you not being able to provide data for the claims you've made, which is exactly what I expected since that's always the case regardless of during which expansion it takes place since WoD and the end of sub numbers being shared.

Do you believe WoW is in trouble and the competition may be on the verge of overtaking them? If you believe no then please provide me with evidence.

I've made my opinion obvious and I am perfectly happy to accept there are no metrics to prove either way. I would like to know what you believe.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Do you believe WoW is in trouble and the competition may be on the verge of overtaking them? If you believe no then please provide me with evidence.

I've made my opinion obvious and I am perfectly happy to accept there are no metrics to prove either way. I would like to know what you believe.

How about you first provide me evidence that it IS happening? Why am I required to provide evidence, yet you're not? Although I do have evidence for my current views on the topic, linked them above from OFFICIAL source.

My opinion is based on the fact that the latest data we have mentioned growth and positives, nothing negative. What's going on right now won't become clear until the next official report, and until then I'll continue to believe that you and the rest are basing your opinions on 3rd party sources, streamer behaviour/twitch metrics and content creator opinions.

If it shows a drop/loss in engagement and less profit from the game, you'll have been correct about the loss even if it can't be proven where those players went. If not, if the report shows growth/stability, then I'll continue to be called incorrect by people such as yourself all the same... Same shit, different expansion, really.

[Holdodlig]

There was thousand of reasons to revamp the world, from Algalon needing to reoriginate it because of N'zoth to the flow of azerite evolving the creatures of Azeroth and changing the landscape. All the realm of the dead bs seems over the top tbh.

[shadowmatrix]

Do you believe WoW is in trouble and the competition may be on the verge of overtaking them? If you believe no then please provide me with evidence.

I've made my opinion obvious and I am perfectly happy to accept there are no metrics to prove either way. I would like to know what you believe.

FF 14 is getting new players but it is far too soon to say they are flourishing. Many are flavor of the moment players who will leave, some won't like the story which is very important since the MSQ requires them to play through it, some won't like the systems once they look past the new car smell, and some will get banned since they are toxic players. There will be those who stick around but they will find things very different from what they are expecting.

Right now FF XIV has log in ques but that isn't new, they just don't have enough servers which is why they stopped selling keys. As veteran gamers we have to be smart enough to see through the smoke and mirrors.

[Kohtra]

How about you first provide me evidence that it IS happening? Why am I required to provide evidence, yet you're not? Although I do have evidence for my current views on the topic, linked them above.

My opinion is based on the fact that the latest data we have mentioned growth and positives, nothing negative. What's going on right now won't become clear until the next official report, and until then I'll continue to believe that you and the rest are basing your opinions on 3rd party sources, streamer behaviour/twitch metrics and content creator opinions.

If it shows a drop/loss in engagement and less profit from the game, you'll have been correct about the loss even if it can't be proven where those players went. If not, if the report shows growth/stability, then I'll continue to be called incorrect by people such as yourself all the same... Same shit, different expansion, really.

We're both required to provide evidence if we each have opinions and believe the other is wrong. Once again, you don't default to being correct.

What is your opinion of WoWs performance in the last 2 months? I sincerely doubt there is any data on the last 2 months yet.

[Swnem]

Stop thinking the WoW dev team can adjust to current time desires.
They can't whatever the next xpac is, it's already in development and there is no changing it now.
Also, no Cataclysm 2 isn't gonna solve your issues.