If 10.0 is a massive revamp was it worth dealing with Shadowlands?

[Paperfox]

Can they make a 10.0 that is so good people will want to come back and will re-energize those who stay? Absolutely they can.

Will they?

Will we get another expansion that is only rich in systems and currencies?

Will we get an expansion that treats all players as being valuable? Or only those who partake in certain activities?

Will the king rule forever?

[Thetruth1400]

a soft wow2 post 10.0

jailer (or insert big baddy) and a manifested azeroth duke it out, we the players play our part, but in the battle cataclysm 2.0 happens, azeroth saves us by putting us in a hibernation stasis before going into one her self to recover after recent events. time skip ahead, players wake up to a whole new world and characters

Wouldn't even have had to go that far if they had had the fortitude to actually stick with the "Time moves different in the Maw vs real world" plot point. Instead they went "lol jk, stop thinking it's going to be that much of a difference."

A 2-year expansion in the Shadowlands could have easily advanced the real world any number of years if they so chose. I think even something as little as 200 years would have been ideal. Azeroth would feel different, but not so alien we didn't recognize it. Those of us that went to the Maw / Shadowlands, which was actually very few people lore wise (Us - the player, Jaina, Anduin, Thrall, Baine, Tyrande, Shandris Feathermoon, Taelia Fordragon, Darion Mograine and about 3 dozen Ebon Blade members.) wouldn't really matter to Azeroth still turning and having to go on.

The races of Azeroth would have plenty to do in the time we, the player, and the several leaders of the factions were away. The story has so much room to advance now.
- What do the humans do without Anduin and with no heir to take over for him?
- Jaina was the new leader of the Kul Tirans, but as she's gone would her mom retake the leadership?
- The Horde had just started a collective group leadership instead of having a Warchief. Without Thrall and Baine there, who represents the Orcs / Tauren and does that tentative group even hold together?
- Without Tyrande to lead them, does Malfurion take over as the leader of the Night Elves? What do they do now that Teldrassil is gone?
- What do the Undead do without a real leader to recover over the years?
- Do Lilian Voss, Calia Menethil, and Derek Proudmoore help fill those leadership roles? Do their lives help them bridge the gaps between the Undead and other races like Humans and Kul Tirans?

About half of the WoW races have sub 200 year life cycles. What will we come back to? There's the potential for so many new characters and leaders.
In those years, what has changed? Which alliances were formed? Which ones collapsed?

There was unlimited potential there for good story and essentially a reset if they had just stuck to their guns, but they balked.

[TheWorkingTitle]

There's two scenarios I can see a massive revamp happening:

1. Army of the Light - we leave Azeroth aboard a souped-up Exodar led by Elune-purified Anduin and lightforged Sylvanas to join up with the Naruu and the rest of the MU Army of the Light to fight either a Void Lord or another Old-God infested Azeroth-like planet. This becomes the revamp or, after freeing this new planet and bringing back some new races/heroes, the Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms are completely remade in far grander scales.

2. WoTLK 2.0 - either the Scourge completely overruns the entirety of Azeroth and we have to take back every zone slowly rebuilding them anew, or we go underground to the Nerubian Underworld (considering lore-wise it spans the entirety of Northrend, underground) and defeat some Undead Aqir or some shit, and when we resurface, Azeroth is revamped.

[Lolites]

It's... pretty obvious Blizzard is hurting right now. You aren't doing yourself any favors pretending it's fine.

its pretty obvious you are extremely biased if you claim something without ANY PROOF WHATSOEVER...
actual official data we have: SL is most sold expansion EVER, and quarterly reports (in which its ilegal to lie) talk about GROWTH

on the other hand what do you base your claims on? your dislike for wow? some streamer playing it? article which had no source or webpage that bases its data on google trends (which is laughable)?

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There was no competition getting massive amounts of praise during any previous expansion. This is a first in WoWs history. Can you at least accept that?

and that in no way even suggests wow is doing worse...
people can play both, there are people playing FF who NEVER played WOW, its not zero sum, it doesnt mean if someone start to play FF he HAD TO come from WOW and stop playing it...

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You truly believe FFxiv hasn't dramatically surpassed all that previous competition?

this is not a church, beliefs have no bearing here...
and even if we had data about FFxiv surpasing all the previous competition STILL doesnt mean anything about wow doing bad...
BOTH ff and wow can do great at the same time...

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There is no evidence either way yet. That's my point. You have an opinion, but you have just as much evidence as I do for mine: none. Please stop pretending you are automatically right and I'm automatically wrong.

he LITERALLY linked you official information, TWICE, how crazy you have to be to still repeat he doesnt have evidence when he already posted it?!
you have to be troll, nobody can be this out of reality...

[Coldkil]

a wow 2 revamp doesn't matter when the current devs hate feedback and are obsessed with systems and simcraft.

Basically this. I can see they're paving the road to make a "wow 2" style of revamp with the Jailer, but in the end i'm not confident in the team simply because they keep coming up with layered systems that simoly don't work or have no goal in mind other than put hurdles in front of players.

For a revamp of the game, you need a different mindset and clear ideas where you want to bring the game. Not just mantaining the status quo.

Jailer will end being defeated like any other baddie, we will return on azeroth and other than "while you were in SL 1000 years passed on azeroth" we won't see anything really different.

We don't really need all this plethora of seasonal content. It's an mmo and not an arpg where periodic resets are needed. Level squish is good, having to farm for a lot of things just tonsee them stripped away makes no sense to me and im everyday less willing to put any effort on anything game related. If it wasnt for raids being really good and the good group of people im in with, i wouldnt be playing.

[Lolites]

It's hard to put any numbers to WoW since they don't release any tbh. What we do know though is that final fantasy just recently (like 2 days ago I think) shattered its record for concurrent steam users and it did so over 2 years after it's last expansion released.

and congratulations to them, means jack shit to wow doing good or not though...
this is not zero-sum, where everyone plays WOW and if someone starts playing FF he had to come from wow, or actualy stop playing it, people can play both, and some actualy do, or come from playing other games, or no games at all straight to ff...
some streamers and some of their audience left wow for ff? perhaps, still, unless you can pinpoint data how many left that is not a proof of anything other than "monkley see monkey do"... and not to mention a lot will go to ff as its flavour of the month, try it and leave, some of them to wow, some not...

[Sevarin]

this is not a church, beliefs have no bearing here...
and even if we had data about FFxiv surpasing all the previous competition STILL doesnt mean anything about wow doing bad...
BOTH ff and wow can do great at the same time...

but but but... the ff14 website says they have OVER 22 million players! clearly this means active accounts and not a total count of subs including active, inactive and free trials.

[Nite92]

Sweet, so no Torghast and no legendaries? Sounds like "close to BiS" to me! You have to either be doing high end M+ or Heroic raids to get close to BiS, and both of those are going to require you to do lots of content to initially get to, Torghast for legendaries, possibly other content for the legendary recipe, and of course whatever you need to do to get your soulbinds up. Virtually nobody is doing heroic raids and no M+ because the advantage doing that content gives you is masive.

I've played both games extensively. You haven't, so lecturing me about how wrong I am about a game you've barely played is not productive.



Again, you don't know what you are talking about. Every final fantasy dungeon is evergreen content. Every raid. Every trial. Every piece of side content. Every system. Every endgame zone. Not the last one or the ones from the expansion. EVERY ONE. To compare that to "Once in awhile an old raid can have a good item" is really ignorant.



No, I said the percentage is 5% closer than WoW, even considering that FF intentionally has lower output characters. Your inability to believe it doesn't change that it's true. Again, one of us has played both. One has not.



A distinction between what? If you want to play one class nobody is stopping you.



I said there aren't giant grinds. I didn't say there isn't anything that takes time or is hard. Once again, I know what I'm talking about and you don't. The hardest raid difficulty in FF14 forces you to scale down to it. You can't overgear it. You can't go back next expansion and farm the transmogs. The first raid is still as difficult as it was at release.



Do you think that this kind of ignorant condescension is compelling?



So what? I'm not interested in farming earlier fights to hit an arbitrary ilvl to clear the next fights. I want the raids to be a test of my skill, not a test of my patience.



"Customization" where you choose the right talent or you are bad and underpowered? Wow, what choice! I'll take the balance instead, thanks.

So your argument is that WoW gives you more abilities earlier on while leveling? That's it. If that's really important to you, that's fine, but pretending that frontloading abilities and then giving you very little later on is great is some game breaking change... ok



What does that have to do with retention problems a half a year later?

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And arguments were presented about the information we had, and then post after post the asker made excuses to dismiss all information and declare themselves right because Blizzard says WoW is good.

Yes you are correct, you gotta do Torghast to get your legendaries. I somehow did not think about that, because it is a one time thing. But, besides getting the 190, it is not required to get any further. Earning a bit more than 4x the Soul Ash is a 2% power increase (roughly, source: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...uosVZF1EVUTHjE ).
Yes, few do it, but it is not required.

Mate, I was asking about how this works in my first comment. You calling me ignorant is ironically ignorant. There is TW, which makes that content relevant again, which should probably be a bit more often one expac each week or so, but when thinking about m+, having 10-12 dungeons is a good idea. Probably, heroic/mythic version of old dungeons should be queueable all the time, as well as more relevant raid ilvl reward. How close is that in FF? Does old raid content give worse gear than the current raid, is it similar?

So if WoW is withing 15%, FF is within 10%? Is that the correct interpretation? Has anyone done the math on that? Because if not, you saying "it is that close" has literally 0 value because it is feelycraft.

No, but it is just the truth. If you cannot commit a certain amount of time a game requires to play in one sitting, the game is just not for you. You cannot commit to play for x hours straight? Well, you have to pick Single player game, or do single player acitivties then in MMOs. I really don't see how this is condescending.

"
"Customization" where you choose the right talent or you are bad and underpowered? Wow, what choice! I'll take the balance instead, thanks.

So your argument is that WoW gives you more abilities earlier on while leveling? That's it. If that's really important to you, that's fine, but pretending that frontloading abilities and then giving you very little later on is great is some game breaking change... ok
"

... No? You can pick the right stuff, but you can ALSO pick slightly worse stuff and be fine. And, if you think you'll use the same talents all the time once you hit 60, you have not played WoW.

My argument is, that FF gameplay is FUCKING BORING in the beginning because you have so little. It is not frontloading. A good example is Sunfire, you get it early, then a few levels later it becomes and AoE spell, and later on it becomes a larger AoE spell. That is a satisfying progression. Not getting Stone 1, and then Stone 2 a few hours later.

"What does that have to do with retention problems a half a year later?"
That after the a "game destroying" 6.0, 7.0. 8.0, and 8.3, Wow pulls record numbers with 9.0. It will be just alright.

Sure, call me biased, I did try the game, and really disliked it - I informed myself a bit about endgame, I watched some streams. The two games are just very different, and are made for different people. I just don't see how this game is the WoW killer. Is there proof that wow has more subs?

[cparle87]

Will we get an expansion that treats all players as being valuable? Or only those who partake in certain activities?

I have never seen anything so subjective in my entire life. What do you consider "being treated as valuable"? Cause I'm sure there's a million different people's opinions on what that means. Though judging from earlier posts in this thread I'm leaning towards "every possible content in the game will let me get bis without me ever having to do something I don't like." Which is an impossibility.

[ro9ue]

Just judging from the way you phrased the thread title I think you'd be better off if you quit the game altogether. This relationship has gone bad.

After Legion I haven't really played much WoW except around expansion launches and occasionally patches.

[shise]

The problem is not the change, but who is making it.

I have 0 trust on the current game leaders to make a good thing out of such a huge event. It is a 50% chance that either they save the game or destroy it completely.

However, at this stage, I look forward to see what comes out of this. They are certainly working on something.. Shadowlands has been a massive disappointment and the fact that 9.1 has taken so long, tells you that they might have changed their direction.

I expect one more and last patch for Shadowlands, then we will probably have a long drought till they start implementing whatever they are preparing next. Might be worth the wait if it is good tho.

[Pendragon]

Anything would be better than what exists right now in retail.

[Cæli]

there is around 20x more chance of seeing wow 2 than a "world revamp". what does that even mean everyone knows that it would be a disaster, even worse than cataclysm given the current state of blizzard, and despite the presence of zidormi

[Musta]

revamp the game using today's dev mindset would be useless

[Ivarr]

I've long thought the devs could get away with taking longer than the usual expansion cycle to release a more ambitious revamp to the game so long as they're upfront about that being their intention.

They'll be upfront about it after they sold enough 24 month subscription bundle mounts.

[Resheph]

It is never worth dealing with anything you dislike for something potentially better in the context of leisure activities. The whole point is to have fun NOW.

I am enjoying Shadowlands for what it is. Would I enjoy it as fresh product? Not likely. Do I enjoy playing my 15 year old characters in new settings? Yes. Until I don't, and then I take a break from the game. Nobody forces me to play all the time or longs stretches continuously.

Play Shadowlands if you like it. Or don't if you don't. Play the new expansion if you like it. Or don't. It's just games. Stop pretending it's such a grave matter.

[DatToffer]

Ah the theory that they butchered WoD to make Legion good ?

Well, they butchered BFA and SL so 10.0 must be reaaaally good.

[Ivarr]

Wouldn't even have had to go that far if they had had the fortitude to actually stick with the "Time moves different in the Maw vs real world" plot point. Instead they went "lol jk, stop thinking it's going to be that much of a difference."

A 2-year expansion in the Shadowlands could have easily advanced the real world any number of years if they so chose. I think even something as little as 200 years would have been ideal. Azeroth would feel different, but not so alien we didn't recognize it. Those of us that went to the Maw / Shadowlands, which was actually very few people lore wise (Us - the player, Jaina, Anduin, Thrall, Baine, Tyrande, Shandris Feathermoon, Taelia Fordragon, Darion Mograine and about 3 dozen Ebon Blade members.) wouldn't really matter to Azeroth still turning and having to go on.

The races of Azeroth would have plenty to do in the time we, the player, and the several leaders of the factions were away. The story has so much room to advance now.
- What do the humans do without Anduin and with no heir to take over for him?
- Jaina was the new leader of the Kul Tirans, but as she's gone would her mom retake the leadership?
- The Horde had just started a collective group leadership instead of having a Warchief. Without Thrall and Baine there, who represents the Orcs / Tauren and does that tentative group even hold together?
- Without Tyrande to lead them, does Malfurion take over as the leader of the Night Elves? What do they do now that Teldrassil is gone?
- What do the Undead do without a real leader to recover over the years?
- Do Lilian Voss, Calia Menethil, and Derek Proudmoore help fill those leadership roles? Do their lives help them bridge the gaps between the Undead and other races like Humans and Kul Tirans?

About half of the WoW races have sub 200 year life cycles. What will we come back to? There's the potential for so many new characters and leaders.
In those years, what has changed? Which alliances were formed? Which ones collapsed?

There was unlimited potential there for good story and essentially a reset if they had just stuck to their guns, but they balked.

I like all of this. Ideally Azeroth's nature would heal and become more 'normal' while the societies living would decay. Lots of civil wars and coupes and refugees migrating elsewhere. Just widespread social entropy as the source for all the new stories and questing.

One major boon in this would for Blizzard to let all the newly discovered and befriended races roam through Azeroth and find their own place, establishing trading outposts and conclaves. BfA went a long way by bringing allied races into the fold, but also consider people like Tortellan and Tuskarr finding their way around Azeorth.

The whole setting is a powder keg of lore potential if you think about it.

[Rhelyo]

Hate it to break it to you guys but this expansion will have one more raid content and as all other expansions in the past we will deal with the baddie we got shown during that expansion.Zovaal like all other baddies will be dealt with most likely this expansion in the home of the Primus which is the Sepulcher.
WoW had its revamp already and that was Cataclysm.
If Blizzard wants to do something about the leak of players moving over to other games they need to build a new mmo and leave the in game microtransactions that came with Activision aside.(pets,mounts,transmog items,toys etc.).

[FAILoZOFF]

Jailer is out there doing "Reality's end" stuff. If he's a plot point to usher in a massive 10.0 world revamp and redone systems and classes, etc. do you think that would change your perspective on Shadowlands?

Basically knowing they were doing a ton of work for the massive rework and Shadowlands would just be a WoD to a mega-Legion.

yeah! or not at all... all depends of end result, i guess?
At this point hard to say anything constructive, all we are is being left alone with abandoned and half-assed expansion for another ~1 year.