Making sense of the Lore evolution

[Giannis-GR]

I'll keep it simple.

I'm basing the topic on a few axioms (i.e. a statement or proposition which is regarded as being established, accepted, or self-evidently true):

- Blizzard approached the story from Warcraft III to Vanilla (+ first expansions) with more seriousness, more mature and darker themes, even more "adult' jokes, more character depth, vastly greater world-building (basically all the world-building we currently have is Warcraft 3+Vanilla, the rest had us focus on specific threats while not updating any story in Azeroth, e.g. inside politics of factions etc.), richer backstories etc.;

- On the other hand, more recent expansions (and as evident in the latest cinematic) tend to be more cartoonish (not in graphs, I mean plot wise), more Marvel-esque, DragonBallZ-like etc.;

Of course, there are exceptions to the above and in no way I'm trying to paint Warcraft 3-Vanilla as being any kind of story masterpiece or anything.

But the differences are obvious, e.g. the depth of character/motivations in the original story versus now (e.g. Kel'thuzad then vs now, Arthas/Jailer etc.), the depth of faction-politics nowadays (most races are abandoned with no update, apart from the top leadership of each faction) etc.

I started playing Warcraft III/Vanilla when I was 12. Let's say that the age range of the player base was 10-25 years old when the Vanilla launched.

That would make the current player base 25-40 years old (plus or minus any new players).

QUESTION:

Why was Warcraft/WoW more mature with a way younger player base, whereas now with an extremely older player-base the content has become more Marvel-esque/DBZ-like, with more "feelings", the need for all factions/characters to be "good" etc.?

This seems inexplicable. The opposite would kinda make sense. Can the only reasonable explanation be that the current set of writers (e.g. Danuser, Golden, Madeleine) just wish to project their own "modern day views" (let's just only put it like this) into the game?

[Tanaria]

I think it's the idea of everyone should be friends, regardless of whoever or whatever they are.

Honorable as their intentions might be - they are the wrong intentions for a game like World of Warcraft, where it's all about war.

[Maljinwo]

Have you seen how much money Marvel makes?

That's why

[Tanaria]

Have you seen how much money Marvel makes?

That's why

That as well.

Money always speaks louder than decent stories and common sense.

[Ivarr]

I can't reject WoW's lore wholesale, there's a lot of very good ideas in it.

It seems that world-building and the overarching plot are handled separately by two different teams. The world-builders get a lot of freedom, but they occasionally have to provide a few characters and devices that plot-masters need. These plot-masters are incompetent buffoons and Blizzard seems to be unable to separate their merit from the worldbuilders.

[RCA]

Makes you wonder how much of the player base is new people to the game, hence the direction they went with the styling as you put it, or the last flux was just mostly returning players with SL coming out.

That said, the franchise is very old so you got different people thinking different things due to times. Hell even people change over time and think differently so there is always gonna be that change. Also as said above they need to keep current trends for monetary purposes. Also our age group has to being growing up somewhat right? As I don’t play that much video games anymore due to rl, so I imagine the next best target group is the one underneath us.

[Feanoro]

Anyone who says the current writers aren't projecting woke bullshit into the story are either living under a rock or willfully blind.

[shimerra]

Anyone who says the current writers aren't projecting woke bullshit into the story are either living under a rock or willfully blind.

And people like yourself are safely ignored just like the mothers who think GTA is going to make their baby a serial killer.

[ONCHEhap]

Honestly to me the issue is not even the maturity of the writing,but the fact that they went from telling the story of a world to telling the story of characters. They kinda just forgot about the world and went all in on a handful of popular characters. It started getting bad with green jesus,but the great shift happened when Game of Thrones blew up and the writer team started fancying themselves as the new G.R.R Martins and shifted to writing about a few characters and introducing "omg" shock moments. That didn't work at all and then Marvel movies blew up and they started writing WoW like a superhero story,and that's where we are now.

On top of the drastic changes in storytelling,there's the issue that the writing team,especially Danuser,have oversized egos and believe themselves capable of writing things with an immense scope and intricate details when they just cannot do that.
Perhaps Danuser could be able to write something good if he was more down to earth and aware of his limitations,but as of now he's convinced he can write stuff that's honestly simply far above his skills,and it just does not work at all,ending up looking more like DeviantArt fanfics than anything else

[Myradin]

Old warcraft wasn't really more mature, we've just gotten older.

- Blizzard approached the story from Warcraft III to Vanilla (+ first expansions) with more seriousness, more mature and darker themes, even more "adult' jokes, more character depth, vastly greater world-building (basically all the world-building we currently have is Warcraft 3+Vanilla, the rest had us focus on specific threats while not updating any story in Azeroth, e.g. inside politics of factions etc.), richer backstories etc.;

There's plenty of poop quests and memes of the era in classic. Perhaps they seemed more subdued due to their text-based nature, but there was sillyness to be had in the old days.

- On the other hand, more recent expansions (and as evident in the latest cinematic) tend to be more cartoonish (not in graphs, I mean plot wise), more Marvel-esque, DragonBallZ-like etc.;

I think they're mostly flexing what power they had to show things now. WC3 and early wow both had really limited animations they could work with. Most the trends in wow's 'cartoony' stories were there too.

But the differences are obvious, e.g. the depth of character/motivations in the original story versus now (e.g. Kel'thuzad then vs now, Arthas/Jailer etc.), the depth of faction-politics nowadays (most races are abandoned with no update, apart from the top leadership of each faction) etc.

Kel'Thuzad's motivations are always been pretty generic and shallow. Its just he serves a guy you don't like now.

Faction politics was easier when you really only had 2 factions. In WC1 it was orcs and humans, and WC2 it was orcs and humans and some guys with some quests to recruit them. WC3 most the other races just sort of 'appear' because they were there before. The night elf politics are limited to Malfurion, Tyrande, and Illidan as they pretty much always have.

WC1-2 focused almost entirely on 2 races, with their friends along for the ride. WC3 focused on 4 main groups, now we have like 20 some races thanks to allied races.

QUESTION:

Why was Warcraft/WoW more mature with a way younger player base, whereas now with an extremely older player-base the content has become more Marvel-esque/DBZ-like, with more "feelings", the need for all factions/characters to be "good" etc.?

This seems inexplicable. The opposite would kinda make sense. Can the only reasonable explanation be that the current set of writers (e.g. Danuser, Golden, Madeleine) just wish to project their own "modern day views" (let's just only put it like this) into the game?

It's a combination of it being an MMO and the player base just growing up.

We've shifted to a more hero focused game, and thus reflects a hero focused narrative. We're not telling the stories of armies, but of a bunch of random folks who take down the big bad.

The horde already went good in WC3, where the only bad faction was the Scourge. WoW was based on WC3's three good factions after Malfurion channeled his spirit bomb...I mean got the wisps to all explode on a big shirtless man. Despite this, the horde has gone evil not once, but twice in wow's history, the 2nd of which was fairly recent.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

I am not very happy with the recent changes made in Shadowlands, especially those concerning the Scourge such as kel'thuzad having been loyal to the Jailer from the start or the Scourge being basically a copy of Maldraxxus (though of course in truth it's the reverse).

[Super Dickmann]

It's less chronological. Outland's world-building was both more simplistic and less useful than what would follow in the Chronicle and Warlords revisions to said topics. Races like the ogres, arakkoa and the various orcish clans were either given any depth at all in the former case or their first meaningful new lore since WC2 in the latter case and most of it good. Pandaria, despite the meme-y main race, is still the most coherent and detailed continent lore the game has or let's face it ever will pursue. Likewise, Kul Tiras and Zandalar are individually fairly well put together with a fair deal of detail put into them as functional, distinct places with their own culture more so than races that've been in the game since inception like the Darkspear, gnomes or tauren.

Likewise, many of the messages regarding universal peace, love and acceptance date as far back as TBC's conclusion regarding the blood elves, which is also evidentiary of a whole bunch of other writing trends like exaggerating character traits to produce villains, lackluster world development, dependance on side materials etc. As a whole though, the one time the game has actually tackled down to earth themes with something resembling a low fantasy perspective are parts of Vanilla questing.

And it is Vanilla specifically, not Warcraft 3. I invite people to replay WC3 (not TFT as it still holds up very well dialogue and motivation wise) and you'll find ultimately the same messaging and quality of dialogue, just in a medium and story that's supremely tight and a world that's far more coherent. WC3 is the peak of the RTS games, but it is not a cradle of the MMO without heavy alterations. Thrall, Jaina and the Night Elves if translated directly into the MMO format as they were back then would be the most boring motherfuckers you could possibly follow because they're exactly the kind of omnibenevolent heroes as the present cast. In fact, don't take my word for it - they are the present cast.

Vanilla's wisest moves were to backtrack heavily on WC3's portrayal of the Horde as totally in sync with humanity and to ditch Jaina in favor of a politically varied, conflicted human faction in Stormwind and the Vanilla dwarves which are still a sleeper hit. And while the MMO briefly nurtured the former it completely shat the bed with the latter and distancing from their Vanilla-era portrayal has been the core reason why the Alliance narrative has been in the bin for more than a decade now. Discounting the night elves who were always fucked by virtue of participating in a faction anyway.

What has changed isn't the presence of this kind of counter-productive messaging, corny dialogue, retcons etc. but that what was the glue holding it together is absent, that being the world. Every continual story only escalated the damage already inflicted until you're left with the Shadowlands situation where there is no focus on Azeroth at all and our only hangers on are these arch Marvel-tier characters.

[Ivarr]

That said, the franchise is very old so you got different people thinking different things due to times. Hell even people change over time and think differently so there is always gonna be that change. Also as said above they need to keep current trends for monetary purposes. Also our age group has to being growing up somewhat right? As I don’t play that much video games anymore due to rl, so I imagine the next best target group is the one underneath us.

I don't believe stories and aesthetics change that drastically for new generations. Super Mario looks exactly like the one I played in the 90's on the N64 and he's still the most popular thing on the Switch, aimed at a younger generation. Moreover, children are still enthralled by the classic Star Wars, or more contemporarily, Pokemon and Lord of the Rings or the Lion King.

We're still the same upright apes we were when we considered leaving the African continent. We're attracted to heuristics and archetypes that resonates with something that predates speech itself, and good art is able to reach in and touch it.

It also wouldn't be immediately clear how the work Blizzard has done on Shadow Lands reflects a response to a new taste in their audience. They have more technological means and budget to tell a story in a way that Classic WoW didn't have. And perhaps that's at the detriment given how much lore was left within the world, for players to dig up by themselves.

[sighy]

Ironically Marvel builds narratives around characters to either deconstruct or build them up organically. You never saw highlights like Captain America acting shady and revealing he worked for Hydra all along only to flip back in the next movie at the end of first act. You never saw a Thor movie, where he sat in a sewer and you had to watch Lady Sif+Warrior Three whine about Thanos for bulk of the run time.


If they want to make a story about Sylvanas they should actually feature her in the bloody story. As is now we are liek 1,5 xpacs deep and we know the total of jackshit about her goals, motivations, personal stakes, consequences of failiure, etc. And the character we knew has been retconned beyond recognition twice to fit dumb plot twists, which make no sense, when you actually consider the implications retrospectively(not even counting all the internal monologues where she lied to herself to fool the audience). This is just the tip of the iceberg.

[Nerovar]

I remember a time when Warlocks in Stormwind had to hide underground and plotted against certain parts of Stormwind's nobility who wanted to root them out completely.

Then Christie Golden and her Warlock self-insert gave us this gem.

“And we have warlocks!” A cheer went up as several people from all different races began casting summoning spells. Felhounds-ugly, red, spined creatures from the depths of the Twisting Nether-shimmered into being. Nearby, a human warlock, a woman whose young face belied her white hair, bent to absently stroke the beast, calling it a “good puppy.” These particular demons fed on magic, Varian recalled. He found himself grinning, and the lovely young woman who delt so affectionatly with demons gave him a wink."

[username993720]

QUESTION:

Why was Warcraft/WoW more mature with a way younger player base, whereas now with an extremely older player-base the content has become more Marvel-esque/DBZ-like, with more "feelings", the need for all factions/characters to be "good" etc.?

This seems inexplicable. The opposite would kinda make sense. Can the only reasonable explanation be that the current set of writers (e.g. Danuser, Golden, Madeleine) just wish to project their own "modern day views" (let's just only put it like this) into the game?

Exactly this.
They have de-fanged any character for the sake of friendship and acceptance. That's why they got rid of Garrosh right after they introduced him back. He jeopardized their "progressive" agenda.
Every character, these days, must forsake its hatred and violent tendencies for a more embracing and loving one.
The quote below just confirms it:

“And we have warlocks!” A cheer went up as several people from all different races began casting summoning spells. Felhounds-ugly, red, spined creatures from the depths of the Twisting Nether-shimmered into being. Nearby, a human warlock, a woman whose young face belied her white hair, bent to absently stroke the beast, calling it a “good puppy.” These particular demons fed on magic, Varian recalled. He found himself grinning, and the lovely young woman who delt so affectionatly with demons gave him a wink."

What the hell is this?!

They really have gone down the drain... Demons are lovely now? Warlocks are well-liked? what has this game become?

[Nerovar]

What the hell is this?!

They really have gone down the drain... Demons are lovely now? Warlocks are well-liked? what has this game become?

This is old news. It's from the War Crimes novel iirc.

[Giannis-GR]

I remember a time when Warlocks in Stormwind had to hide underground and plotted against certain parts of Stormwind's nobility who wanted to root them out completely.

Then Christie Golden and her Warlock self-insert gave us this gem.

“And we have warlocks!” A cheer went up as several people from all different races began casting summoning spells. Felhounds-ugly, red, spined creatures from the depths of the Twisting Nether-shimmered into being. Nearby, a human warlock, a woman whose young face belied her white hair, bent to absently stroke the beast, calling it a “good puppy.” These particular demons fed on magic, Varian recalled. He found himself grinning, and the lovely young woman who delt so affectionatly with demons gave him a wink."

That’s such a prime example that totally hits the nail right on the head.

With its limitations (of course, we are not trying to sugarcoat Vanilla’s story quality into some kind of Tolkien level)....

Vanilla built a world where even the smallest detail was taken care of.

For sure the writers wanted to make money back then, as everybody wants since the dawn of human time. But they also deeply cared about the world, it “gave them a kick”, they enjoyed these details, which enriched the world.

How immersive to be a warlock and getting involved in the story this way..

Whereas now, the only focus in on Marvel-like characters, DBZ-like threat scaling and a superficial “respect amongst all”..

[Nerovar]

That’s such a prime example that totally hits the nail right on the head.

With its limitations (of course, we are not trying to sugarcoat Vanilla’s story quality into some kind of Tolkien level)....

Vanilla built a world where even the smallest detail was taken care of.

For sure the writers wanted to make money back then, as everybody wants since the dawn of human time. But they also deeply cared about the world, it “gave them a kick”, they enjoyed these details, which enriched the world.

How immersive to be a warlock and getting involved in the story this way..

Whereas now, the only focus in on Marvel-like characters, DBZ-like threat scaling and a superficial “respect amongst all”..

The original WoW gave me a world I wanted to interact with (which is why I rolled on an RP server back then).

Modern WoW gives me a cinematic story I mostly don't care about while actively undermining every part of the world.

[username993720]

This is old news. It's from the War Crimes novel iirc.

Didn't read it, and i'm appalled from how they're described.
Now i know how current Blizzard became what it is.