Who's to blame here?

[Triceron]

Timed runs were added to WoW in Mists of Pandaria in 2012. Greater Rifts were added to D3 in 2014. WoW did the concept first.

MoP didn't have infinite progression like Mythic+ though, the content for timed runs were generally static while your character simply progresses in power and is able to beat it faster and faster. The difficulty remains the static.

Mythic+ rewards and challenge grows, and the timelimit gatekeeps the rewards. Therefore the meta suggests gatekeeping players in order to maintain a certain level of progression.

As I've explained, Greater Rifts generally don't have this same problem because the rewards of Greater Rifts is tied to the progression regardless of time limit. There is no real punishment for going over the limit other than having to invest more time. There is much less of a need to gatekeep who participates in the GR runs since the loot is rewarded as long as you all beat the boss.

Diablo 3 is designed in a way where roles are also different and you can literally have 'Zero DPS' classes in the game who do nothing but provide support, and get 'carried' by the DPS players who you are intentionally buffing. This is actually the intentional meta for high level GR group play; you have a Scouter who runs up ahead and gathers Elite mobs together, a ZDPS support who keeps everyone alive and crowd controls, and 2 DPS who melt down everything else. But the content is absolutely doable with 4 DPS or any combination of roles and classes (barring all ZDPS). WoW is designed around the Holy Trinity, which has a much higher emphasis for the Tanks or Healers dictating who gets to do the content. This is a bigger symptom that also affects other LFG content, like LFR and Dungeon grouping overall. This all contributes to the toxicity and expectations of players who are using these systems specifically for power progression.

[xpsync]

Seriously the entire thing is easily solved, don't f'ing drop the key 1 on a failed time ffs, omg what a f'ing revelation, all the pressure is off.

Doors open wide to people that look ok, a maybe, looks kinda worth taking a chance, but you know can't, that's way too risky, that key drop is too much, blizz is creating racism towards people of less skill levels and or just trying to rank up. If you really need the key drop go visit the npc that will do that for you.

Outside that why such a huge penalty? For example on my 18 key i'm only going to bring the best, which is 99% of the time guild peeps but always can't fill every spot, it takes forever for a less risk player to appear, if the key didn't drop, hey you, the next random person walking past, lets go...

I dunno to me this seems so much more sensible. If you're dead set on the time yeah, sure i get that, but does it really have to be such an all or nothing by dropping the key a level? Now you have to repeat 17, then if that f's up, ugggg ffs just leave the key to what it was PROG'D to. Outside that, it becomes "oh well" didn't time it but had fun, peeps get some kick ass vault loot, lets give 18 another go.

[Eazy]

Kinda both sides.
Blizzard gave you a mechanic, players are using it.

Timed runs were added to WoW in Mists of Pandaria in 2012. Greater Rifts were added to D3 in 2014. WoW did the concept first.

Timed runs(challenge modes) =! "rifts".

M+ dungeons are much more like timed rifts.

Edit:
@Triceron explained it better.

[LordVargK]

The only thing Blizzard could do is find a way to promote guilds or communities and make it easier for tanks to do m+.

Blizzard did not develop RIO, Blizz eased the punishments for failing a key down to a minimum (remember, you used to get no loot at all and your key was destroyed if you depleted a key), now you get loot, your weekly chest and a new key.

Players came and made RIO and began making a very competitive system out of M+.

The solution to all problems are guilds and socializing. Blizzard could iterate on their cata solution to this problem. Blizzard has done nothing for guilds for more than 10 years, while arguably guilds are the social backbone of WoW and the reason WoW has a steady playerbase even in times without new content.

The tank problem could be solved by revamping how trash works in M+, in a way that doesn't punish the group for pulling too much. Much else is not needed.

[Magnagarde]

Players need to revert to the sense of self-reliance and problem-solving in online gaming that we used to have in the late 2000s. Finding a group of players to play with wasn't easy, getting things done wasn't easy, understanding and clearing content wasn't easy, but doing every single one of these things by overcoming obstacles is what made it worth it and what created many great memories. This includes dealing with bad behaviour coming from others. Back then the only group of people who couldn't wrap their heads around these things and player behaviour were middle-aged people who thought that playing a MMO with other people was the same as dining in public.

In other words, stop looking for a solution on Blizzard's end for something that players are responsible for. The entire debate about toxic behaviour has gotten out of hand years ago and whenever I see this buzzword mentioned I can already tell what I'm up against. Blizzard is responsible for so many things going badly, but this is definitely not one of them.

[Triceron]

Players need to revert to the sense of self-reliance and problem-solving in online gaming that we used to have in the late 2000s.

That is the case, and that's why you see so many people leaving WoW. The solution in the late 2000's was to not put up with the bullshit and just play another game. It's pretty much how the MOBA scene works. Don't like League? Play DOTA. Don't like DOTA? Play League. Don't like MOBA? Play Fortnite.

[Echo of Soul]

Who's to blame here?


[1]Blizzard for developing such systems where it breeds toxic behaviour or the type of players that are in the WoW Community?


Scenario Case:

Mythic+ as a function is great idea. It produces replayability, may replace raiding to an extent, but the premade LFG system is a disaster. I now see people more speaking about the mythic+ situation, where you get declined for many hours at a time, leaving majority of players frustrated.

On the flip side I understand mythic+ key holders want a smooth/fast run, because it is too punshing if you fail, the cycle will continue, unless Blizzard decides to lesser the punishements, then people wouldn't care about success/failure ratio and decrease the decline ratio followed by increased Accept ratio in the LFG Premade tool.

Coming back to the point made in [1], who is to blame, at the end of the day?

Definitely the developers, and more specifically whoever was in charge when m+ was implemented.

Designing a good online video game is more about player psychology than anything else. If you can't predict how players will behave, react and feel your systems will be shit.

[Magnagarde]

That is the case, and that's why you see so many people leaving WoW. The solution in the late 2000's was to not put up with the bullshit and just play another game. It's pretty much how the MOBA scene works. Don't like League? Play DOTA. Don't like DOTA? Play League. Don't like MOBA? Play Fortnite.

That is the case, yeah, and people have gotten too attached to the franchise. It is like your favourite food joint changed owners and you slowly distance yourself from the place that was part of your life for well over a decade. Every now and then you're still going to think about it or perhaps visit it to grab something to eat. What I was getting at the most with my reply is that back then you simply wouldn't play with people you thought were all the things that nowadays fall under the umbrella of "toxic". It kind of happened naturally, like neighbourhood kids playing ball and excluding the kid that's ruining the game.

On top of that, players more skilled at the game than the average guy trying to fit in have always had more of a tendency to behave in a "toxic" way and that's nothing new either; you'd either get good to match them or find something adequate for yourself. What is happening now is that players try to blame others for not overcoming this reality check for them.

[dominatedd]

Definitely the developers, and more specifically whoever was in charge when m+ was implemented.

Designing a good online video game is more about player psychology than anything else. If you can't predict how players will behave, react and feel your systems will be shit.

After reading many responses in this thread, I am still convinced, if Mythic+ was less punishable, than players would get less declines. You are correct about the psycholigical factor regarding M+. Players in LFD are seeking the best people to avoid failure in the runs, because if you do, you will get punished for it.

[Triceron]

That is the case, yeah, and people have gotten too attached to the franchise. It is like your favourite food joint changed owners and you slowly distance yourself from the place that was part of your life for well over a decade. Every now and then you're still going to think about it or perhaps visit it to grab something to eat. What I was getting at the most with my reply is that back then you simply wouldn't play with people you thought were all the things that nowadays fall under the umbrella of "toxic". It kind of happened naturally, like neighbourhood kids playing ball and excluding the kid that's ruining the game.

On top of that, players more skilled at the game than the average guy trying to fit in have always had more of a tendency to behave in a "toxic" way and that's nothing new either; you'd either get good to match them or find something adequate for yourself. What is happening now is that players try to blame others for not overcoming this reality check for them.

It's more that the end game is built to funnel any and all types of players into the same type of content, rather than remaining open ended as WoW generally had been in its earlier life.

The toxicity is coming from an expectation that all M+ players should be at their prime, but at the same time the system is designed to incentivize casual players to use and play since that is literally what Blizzard intends as the end-game alternative to Raiding. You can't really have it both ways. It's like throwing a LFG system onto Mythic Raiding or top tier Arenas and expecting things to sort themselves out.

Imagine if they made 'Mythic Battlegrounds' that rewards Arena-level loot, but kept the same LFG system as regular BG's. All that does is promote toxicity because there's an expectation of a high level of play, but the system is accessible to anyone to join, and there's no differentiating between the two types of players looking for this to be *their* choice of end-game progression.

[rhorle]

After reading many responses in this thread, I am still convinced, if Mythic+ was less punishable, than players would get less declines. You are correct about the psycholigical factor regarding M+. Players in LFD are seeking the best people to avoid failure in the runs, because if you do, you will get punished for it.

Nope. You would still be declined because you are still competing against dozens of other applicants. Even with +2 you can be declined because the group leader picks X over you for whatever reason. Most times it is first come first serve but it can still be down to item level difference. Seeking the best players has nothing to do with the current system for M+. Players have wanted to spend their time in the most efficent way possible for a while now.

It is why trash skips for high level play exists in lower content. It is why in Ny'alotha LFR the raid would attempt to skip trash even though it seemed to be pulled anyways 50% of the time. This is why hosting your own groups, or finding a guild/friends, to play with is so important. It allows you to do the content on your terms and to whatever your goals are.

[munkeyinorbit]

Right, but coming back to my case, Mythic+ is too punishing, hence why keystone holders are taking the time to find that perfect group not realising that they are declining vast majority of the sign ups. The problem here is that Blizzard made the Mythic+ in a way that breeds that kind of behaviour.

- - - Updated - - -



Yet, it's a huge problem.

It is a huge player made problem. Everyone has equal opportunity of creating their own groups. If you create your own groups then you have the power to set the arbitary parameters on who you will invite. It is that simple yet it seems people would prefer to do nothing and blame others.

[Magnagarde]

It's more that the end game is built to funnel any and all types of players into the same type of content, rather than remaining open ended as WoW generally had been in its earlier life.

The toxicity is coming from an expectation that all M+ players should be at their prime, but at the same time the system is designed to incentivize casual players to use and play since that is literally what Blizzard intends as the end-game alternative to Raiding. You can't really have it both ways. It's like throwing a LFG system onto Mythic Raiding or top tier Arenas and expecting things to sort themselves out.

Imagine if they made 'Mythic Battlegrounds' that rewards Arena-level loot, but kept the same LFG system as regular BG's. All that does is promote toxicity because there's an expectation of a high level of play, but the system is accessible to anyone to join, and there's no differentiating between the two types of players looking for this to be *their* choice of end-game progression.

The part about no open ended gameplay is definitely true and it kind of directly goes back to them having to put the "world" of Warcraft back into World of Warcraft.

The open-endedness of the M+ system is somewhat compensated by the fact that there are levels 2 through whatever is achievable on the high end of the M+ system. What they need to do is to make the system more rewarding for different levels of skill, while also making sure that the casual players have something to entertain themselves with. Other than this, I think the M+ system is fine, but I definitely agree that the open-endedness has lead players to create an elitist environment, even when it doesn't necessarily have to be one. This open ended approach is what resulted in the community creating raider.io because there'd be total confusion and seclusion, as was the case at Legion's start.

The only thing I did in the last patch was M+ and the first half of it was spent in the que, attempting to get into a run. It definitely became ridiculous at some points, where I'd be denied into a +15 with a rating of 1.700. It's also got a lot to do with wether you raid or not because if you do, then there's an abundance of keys available. In other words, you have to find a group of players to play with, if you have the time for it that is. If you don't, then for many the solution is to move onto different games that have a little bit of everything for everyone, instead of trying to tunnel everyone in the same direction. There's also the part about exploring something that's unknown and there's not much of that going on with WoW, considering their players are basically doing their QA testing for the past two expansions.

[muto]

Every single system from every game in the history of gaming, has a way of "breeding toxic behaviour" - I challenge you to find one that isn't. Even something as benign as transmogs can make people toxic.

At the end of the day, the players are responsible for their own behaviour, nobody else. Systems don't inherently breed toxicity. People who are unable to control their feelings towards them, do.

It's easy to pin blame on something else, because people in general online don't like owning up to their own shortcomings as a person.

Even in Hearthstone where you can’t talk to the other person you can still “rope” them (use your whole turn timer), or sit there and spam emotes. You can squelch in regular play fortunately, but not in battlegrounds.

[Paperfox]

If you're going to assign blame to the problem, then the bulk of that IMHO goes to the designers of the system. This doesn't mean that the players are somehow innocent in the thing.

[Scarnage86]

in legion and bfa i got that same problem.... long queue.... hours wasted...
then i decide to swap my hunter main to a monk tank main....
now i'm happier then ever.... no queue, skipped tons of m+key (SL i skipped from +2 to +5 then +8-9 then +12 then 15+)
when u are a wanted role all the game feels good!
- m+, zero queue and can join even with low rio
- rbg as flag carrier, same
- raid as main tank, u can make guild progres, and when u wanna make more try o beat the boss just pug!
- world content super lol
the only downside being tank only is arena.... that is no go as tank, unless paladin
Swap tank, and play as u want

[Triceron]

The part about no open ended gameplay is definitely true and it kind of directly goes back to them having to put the "world" of Warcraft back into World of Warcraft.

The open-endedness of the M+ system is somewhat compensated by the fact that there are levels 2 through whatever is achievable on the high end of the M+ system. What they need to do is to make the system more rewarding for different levels of skill, while also making sure that the casual players have something to entertain themselves with. Other than this, I think the M+ system is fine, but I definitely agree that the open-endedness has lead players to create an elitist environment, even when it doesn't necessarily have to be one. This open ended approach is what resulted in the community creating raider.io.

I completely agree with this assessment and sentiment. The system itself isn't bad, it's just not designed well for multiple audiences.

Theres two things I can see that can be improved for less toxicity - More matchmaking options for specific goals, and detaching Loot/Key rewards from time limit progression.

Instead of adding bonus loot for completing the time limit. Don't make any difference in loot rarity or number of pieces dropped, otherwise it will be perceived as a standard rather than a bonus. You beat the level, you get the rewards. The reward for beating the time limit should not be reflected directly in power progression. Keys should be rewarded in different ways than simply beating the time limit, since not beating the limit ends up being a punishment rather than considered as a reward. This wouldn't get rid of all the toxicity, but it lowers the standard of expectations from *having* to beat the time limit, knowing that you aren't missing out on a whole bunch of rewards at the end from a 'bad' run. The only loss should be time invested in a longer run, not in rewards at the end of the run.

On top of that I'd suggest improvements to the matchmaking system. If this is intended to be used by a wide variety of players, then incentivize methods for people to find like-minded players in the game. Cross realm. This is generally a problem I see with WoW in general, and looking for groups is a pain in the ass that defaults you to relying on the LFG system and pressing a button and waiting 45+ minutes out of the convenience of not logging into some 3rd party website or finding a specific Discord channel to group up. Diablo 3 has chat channels specific for 'Communities', why is something like this not ever used in WoW?

[Magnagarde]

I completely agree with this assessment and sentiment. The system itself isn't bad, it's just not designed well for multiple audiences.

Theres two things I can see that can be improved for less toxicity - More matchmaking options for specific goals, and detaching Loot/Key rewards from time limit progression.

Instead of adding bonus loot for completing the time limit. Don't make any difference in loot rarity or number of pieces dropped, otherwise it will be perceived as a standard rather than a bonus. You beat the level, you get the rewards. The reward for beating the time limit should not be reflected directly in power progression. Keys should be rewarded in different ways than simply beating the time limit, since not beating the limit ends up being a punishment rather than considered as a reward. This wouldn't get rid of all the toxicity, but it lowers the standard of expectations from *having* to beat the time limit, knowing that you aren't missing out on a whole bunch of rewards at the end from a 'bad' run. The only loss should be time invested in a longer run, not in rewards at the end of the run.

On top of that I'd suggest improvements to the matchmaking system. If this is intended to be used by a wide variety of players, then incentivize methods for people to find like-minded players in the game. Cross realm. This is generally a problem I see with WoW in general, and looking for groups is a pain in the ass that defaults you to relying on the LFG system and pressing a button and waiting 45+ minutes out of the convenience of not logging into some 3rd party website or finding a specific Discord channel to group up. Diablo 3 has chat channels specific for 'Communities', why is something like this not ever used in WoW?

I think the game's gone too far into a single direction to change that drastically. What appealed to so many, in my mind, is that achieving the same thing gave everyone the same rewards; your group would down a raidboss and dispense the loot, but that loot was the same for the most capable players in the world and the least capable players in the world who managed to kill said boss. Fast forward to how things are now and it is undeniable that a vast majority of the average players are much, much better at the game than the average players back in the day. This was best shown through the massive drive towards WoW Classic, where people steamrolled through iconic raids that they had only heard about.

What I mean to say is that if you make the content equally rewarding regardless of the difficulty(ie a timed run compared to one that wasn't timed), you quickly disincentivize a large group of players that are better at the game than the lowest denominator. These things need to be done slowly and by incentivizing through a more complex rewards system that is properly staggered and not centered around simply power progression. This can primarily be done by telling the casual playerbase that there's more than just competitive gear-grinding fests and score padding. To do that, they need to create new casual content and rethink their idea of world building. World quests did that partially, but they ended up being a tool that drip-feeds players with character power progress, while making it a waste of time down the line. This is another issue and that is how everything you do doesn't matter for the overall progress and power of your character just one patch down the line.

I don't see an easy concept out of this situation without alienating a lot of players or making doing harder difficulty content pointless. The only solution is to go through a serious overhaul of the game and a fundamental revision of the phylosophy behind it.

[Triceron]

I think the game's gone too far into a single direction to change that drastically. What appealed to so many, in my mind, is that achieving the same thing gave everyone the same rewards; your group would down a raidboss and dispense the loot, but that loot was the same for the most capable players in the world and the least capable players in the world who managed to kill said boss. Fast forward to how things are now and it is undeniable that a vast majority of the average players are much, much better at the game than the average players back in the day. This was best shown through the massive drive towards WoW Classic, where people steamrolled through iconic raids that they had only heard about.

What I mean to say is that if you make the content equally rewarding regardless of the timer, you quickly disincentivize a large group of players that are better at the game than the lowest denominator. These things need to be done slowly and by incentivizing through other rewards too. I don't see an easy concept out of this situation without alienating a lot of players or making doing harder difficulty content pointless.

Rewards don't have to be in the form of *loot* just for meeting a timer.

An example is beating the bonus boss in Caverns of Time Stratholme for the mount. Why is this appropriate? Because the reward is an extra challenge for those who can do it, and it's completely considered a bonus if you are able to. Not having that extra boss and the mount reward is not a punishment to your reason of doing CoT: Strat. Your purpose in the dungeon is clear - to get loot drops and to clear a daily/weekly for Honor/Valor tokens. The mount is literally a bonus for anyone who doesn't already have it. It's not deemed a mandatory progression reward.

A higher Mythic+ level is already the deciding factor for skill. Progression should be based on this value alone. If players want the challenge of that dungeon, then they should be grouping for the sake of doing that difficulty of content, and the rewards should be appropriate for that level. In Classic WoW terms, it's the difference between doing a Dungeon and a Heroic Dungeon. If you want the better rewards, you just do the content, and there is no punishment for taking longer and killing all the trash, or skipping trash and breezing through the bosses. The rewards are the same, therefore people aren't going to go in with the expectation that trash needs to be skipped in order to meet a time limit that will give out an extra piece of loot.

Having a time limit that offers an extra piece of loot is an arbitrary reward. It's not a bonus, it's a standard. People won't expect it to be 5 pieces of loot, +1 if you beat the timer; the standard expectation is 6 pieces of loot and anything less means your group sucked. The blame is going to be on the group that doesn't make the standard, and the expectation will be to always hit the timer, no excuses.

That's why Greater Rifts in Diablo 3 doesn't have this problem with player skill divisions. Beating the time limit simply boosts your personal GR level and a chance of upgrading your Gems, a progression system that has diminishing returns. There's no difference in loot or 'EXP' otherwise. As long as you beat the boss, you get the rewards, and the only thing you lose is time investment for a slower completion. Any other differences in skill comes purely from what level of GR you're doing with others.

[cparle87]

The part about no open ended gameplay is definitely true and it kind of directly goes back to them having to put the "world" of Warcraft back into World of Warcraft.

Considering that in the first patch of the expansion you could get the max level legendary, full 197 (better than LFR and low keys), and a few 207s if you were lucky without having to do group play when AotC raiders were in 213 I'd have to disagree with your statement. I can't remember a time when open world and solo content was so rewarding.