Who's to blame here?

[Magnagarde]

But imagine if your run goes from 6 pieces of loot to 5 pieces if you don't beat it within the time limit. Suddenly that's a perception of punishment. The standard is not 5 pieces of loot with a chance at a 6th; it's 6 pieces of loot and anything less is not worth putting a group together for. It's intentionally dividing the playerbase that is doing the same content. For what purpose? None, because a *higher Mythic number* should already be the skill division between players, not meeting some meta-goal within that is otherwise deemed an *incomplete* run.

I don't disagree, but everyone doing M+ and trying to be the best they can is to blame for that. If you don't add extra rewards for completing the harder runs, then there's no point behind doing said harder runs, other than posterity. Even if you incentivize it by cosmetic things or collectibles, it's still going to annoy a part of the playerbase that plays only for collecting said things, making them que and be denied over and over again. This kind of behaviour is built into human nature; just like the slowest and clumsiest kid would be picked for the goalkeeper or wouldn't be picked at all to play ball at the schoolyard, the player with the lowest score and gear is left behind.

The only way to solve the problem you've laid out is to scrap the M+ system, but I think it has proven far more popular to the devs than they expected it to be. I also think it has helped them retain a large number of players that otherwise wouldn't play, who have moved on from raiding. It also decently complements the gameplay of active raiders.

They need to do something comprehensive about the state of the game and gameplay overall. At this point, and I've mentioned that elsewhere, the best course of action would be to move on from the established world of Azeroth and all affiliated areas, introducing new worlds to explore and new things for casuals to attach themselves to. The sense of exploration and discovering new things is what matters to most casuals.

- - - Updated - - -

Considering that in the first patch of the expansion you could get the max level legendary, full 197 (better than LFR and low keys), and a few 207s if you were lucky without having to do group play when AotC raiders were in 213 I'd have to disagree with your statement. I can't remember a time when open world and solo content was so rewarding.

I didn't mean it from a purely gearing-based reward system. I meant the overall sense of a proper MMORPG setting, with activities that can be done within. The open world of the Shadowlands is all about clicking between FPs, going to Oribos and to the next zone, where everything you do is meaningless one patch into the future.

Making it easy to obtain the things you mentioned, while having to do very little, is also a symptom of the same problem. I think the same way as you do. Giving too much for too little or too little for too much effort are two sides of the same coin.

[DazManianDevil]

Any endgame system based on progression and actually playing well is always going to turn into a fucking shit show when you partner up with what are basically randoms. And that's what the group finder does.

It doesn't matter if you're finding groups in General chat, through the group finder, through a website, or a completely random group maker. It is going to create tension and anger as your 35 minute run ends in failure.

Personally, I think the penalty for failure is too harsh and the fact that one diva leaving the group in a strop instantly wastes the key and makes sure nobody else gets anything either is just crap. Keys should only go down if you make a conscious choice to do that. Go up when you beat the timer. Allow replacements (and invalidate the timer) if somebody leaves.

I only run in a guild group. And frankly I don't even do that most of the time. The gogogo mentality was already a cancer before M+, and basing an entire game mode around it has only made it malignant.

Yeah I gotta say, I've personally experienced this shit since late wrath.
"Oh you want into an ICC Normal PuG? Better have 6k+ Gearscore"
I recall tanking random heroics as a bear, if I wasn't chain pulling at full speed I got flamed by DPS and healers alike. This ain't a new problem with M+.

[Triceron]

If you don't add extra rewards for completing the harder runs, then there's no point behind doing said harder runs, other than posterity.

Exactly.

There *is* no point to the timers. Timers *should not* have an incentive so great that it becomes an expectation for every run.

Just as there is no reason to have to beat the timers in GR's.

The purpose of beating the timers should be an individual's goal, and if they choose to, to find other like-minded individuals to do that challenge for the sake of it being a challenge. Timers should not be the *Standard* way of getting full loot rewards. Doing the challenge should have its own set of rewards that are unique to itself, and need to remain valued as a *bonus*.

Look at ZA completing all 4 bosses to get the extra chest is a bonus. It was generally not deemed a standard for pugs in progression. It's something you do if you have a good enough group to do it, but otherwise 90% of the time in pugs you aren't going to make that timer, and it's not even worth attempting if all you're interested in a smooth run without risking crazy pulls just to make the time. Mythic+ is different, where the timer is something you complete on a regular basis, and there's absolutely an expectation that *every run* should yield a full completion within the time limit. The meta for ZA became that people looked for groups to do the Bonus chest run, otherwise if you queue it up on LFG, there's *no expectation* for a bonus completion in a pug run. The timer was tuned way harder than normal to make the extra piece of gear not worth the time if you don't have the specific group to do the challenge. It was not an expectation, whereas Mythic+'s reward is so good and achievable that it's not worth passing up.

[rhorle]

Timers *should not* have an incentive so great that it becomes an expectation for every run.

If you don't make the timer you get one less piece of loot and the key downgrades. That is all. More loot chances is not some huge incentive. It is expected to meet the timer for every run because that is what the community wants. Efficiency and best possible loot chances. The problem is you defining "Full loot rewards" as including the bonus for meeting the timer. Rather then counting it as the bonus. Weird right?

[Twdft]

After reading many responses in this thread, I am still convinced, if Mythic+ was less punishable, than players would get less declines. You are correct about the psycholigical factor regarding M+. Players in LFD are seeking the best people to avoid failure in the runs, because if you do, you will get punished for it.

How exactly would you change M+ to make it less punishable leading to players getting less declines? How would that change deal with the fact that in a couple minutes 20 dps apply to a key, how would your change get them all in?

And you still haven't answered why you don't play your own key from which you can't be declined by definition.

[Triceron]

The problem is you defining "Full loot rewards" as including the bonus for meeting the timer. Rather then counting it as the bonus. Weird right?

:/

If the community is expected to meet the timer every time, and that is what the community wants, then it's the community that is defining the standard expectation.

I'm not the one who defines what is a bonus and what is not, I'm making an observation that the core root of the division of the playerbase and the meta is built around the reward system and the timer not being valued as a bonus, but rather a standard to meet. Does the 'toxic' part of the community view this as a bonus? No, it does not. They view it as a standard, which is a reason why they have higher expectations of all players who do this content. It's a contributing factor to why toxicity exists here, as compared to the same system in Diablo 3 which doesn't have this problem because the loot is ultimately not tied to the timer. Or hell, the Timed Runs content from MOP even. Different rewards, different standards.

[rhorle]

It's a contributing factor to why toxicity exists here, as compared to the same system in Diablo 3 which doesn't have this problem because the loot is ultimately not tied to the timer. Or hell, the Timed Runs content from MOP even. Different rewards, different standards.

It is not a contributing factor. The desire to do things quickly and efficiently exist even when timers do not and there is no difference in rewards between slow and fast. Loot isn't tied to the timer in Diablo 3 but there are rewards that are like the gem upgrades.

- - - Updated - - -

Why would blizzard change something that makes them money? Players rejected = players who are willing to buy boosts. To buy boosts you buy blizzard gold. Win-win. That’s why they don’t care.

So why were players rejected from group content prior to boosts? And why didn't Blizzard solve the issue back then?

[Triceron]

It is not a contributing factor. The desire to do things quickly and efficiently exist even when timers do not

Sure, but that desire generally does not manifest itself in toxic behaviour. Just wanting stuff done efficiently is fine. It's when it becomes an expectation of how the content should be achieved by everyone that it becomes toxic. And that's something that the community at large defines, because it's all based on what the most efficient approach to obtain rewards. If the Timers are easy enough that people expect every pug to be able to complete them, then they will tailor their pugs to maximize efficiency. If the timers are not met, then people will be frustrated for missing out on rewards and outwardly blame their teammates.

Greater Rifts is the same type of content, but the community at large does not deem the timer to be a necessity because the reward is mostly worthless in PUG settings. There's no expectation that a timer must be met at progression-level gameplay by pugs, and so the expectation of wanting things done quickly isn't going to manifest itself as toxic behaviour, because really no one's *at a loss* for missing the timer.

Again, a very simple and common observation - or do you somehow think *the problem is how I'm defining people are acting toxic* and that everything works fine?

and there is no difference in rewards between slow and fast.

You don't consider extra loot and higher keys being a difference in rewards? I mean, the rewards are literally the reason why people are being toxic and gatekeeping.

Loot isn't tied to the timer in Diablo 3 but there are rewards that are like the gem upgrades.

Yes, which has vast diminishing returns depending on the level of progress you are at. Progress that is achievable as solo content, mind you.
It is generally not an expectation to receive (progression) gem upgrade from any PUG run. If you need to level a gem, you do it on a safe difficulty that guarantees a win to maximize efficiency. If you want to do high level progression gem upgrades, you do it solo, or with a group of friends to guarantee maximum efficiency. Any other pug GR run? It wholly doesn't matter because no one does it for the gem progression, and no one really needs to be toxic because of *all the other alternatives* they have to do that same progress.

Bad GR run? Just leave and start a new one, because you're really not missing anything other than the time investment. GRs are pretty casual content and keys are very easy to obtain and there's no 'higher level key' to worry about obtaining/maintaining.

[Dazmalak]

This is exactly what Blizzard has steered the game into and it attracts exactly the kind of elitist douchebags that you see in the game. In a way it's both, but players are just adapting and copying behavior they see from one another, so it's on Blizzard in the end.

[Ringthane]

The answer to these types of threads is always "whoever the OP feels is to blame here", because he/she will never accept an answer other than that.

[Very rare pepe]

This just seems like a You problem. Roll a tank or healer for an easier time finding groups. DPS have always had a hard time finding groups throughout the history of WoW, especially in a pug environment.

Join a guild, get some friends or stop crying about an issue you are helping create by being a DPS.

[Swnem]

I don't think there is anything to debate.

That is like saying the customer is at fault for your faulty product.

I probably have to spell this out. The game systems are toxic. That is why the community acts accordingly.

For example, if you imprison 2 people in a room and you tell them you will let one out if one kills the other or they both will asfixiate, are they being toxic when they start fighting? Or are the game rules toxic?
I think it's obvious. We play in the rule set Blizz set for us. We didn't create them.

Now, of course, there is such a thing as going overboard, you have those exceptions in every community, but inherantly it's the systems.

If Blizz changed the systems to be less cut throat competitive, there would be a decline on the toxicity.

For example, if Blizz capped Mythic+ at 15 it would diminish the elitism towards meta classes and would result in less frustration for many players and therefore less toxicity.

If mythic were to only give cosmetic rewards and heroic was the end of gear progression, toxicity would lessen.

If in pvp the best gear could be aquired without the need for rating.

The more extreme the rules that apply to more players, the more toxicity there will be.
Make such content optional, and it will go far into curtailing it. It might also deal a blow to boost services too.

[rhorle]

You don't consider extra loot and higher keys being a difference in rewards? I mean, the rewards are literally the reason why people are being toxic and gatekeeping.

Maybe read the entire sentence? "The desire to do things quickly and efficiently exist even when timers do not and there is no difference in rewards between slow and fast." There is no difference in rewards when doing a Heroic slow or fast. Or time walking. Or a raid. Or whatever else that doesn't have a timer but gives a reward.

The desire to have an efficient run with out failure is what drives toxicity and gate keeping. The same mind sets exists with or with out timers so the timers and extra rewards for meeting timers are not the cause.

[kaminaris]

I don't think there is anything to debate.

That is like saying the customer is at fault for your faulty product.

I probably have to spell this out. The game systems are toxic. That is why the community acts accordingly.

For example, if you imprison 2 people in a room and you tell them you will let one out if one kills the other or they both will asfixiate, are they being toxic when they start fighting? Or are the game rules toxic?
I think it's obvious. We play in the rule set Blizz set for us. We didn't create them.

Now, of course, there is such a thing as going overboard, you have those exceptions in every community, but inherantly it's the systems.

Yep. Its the environment that shapes up the community, saying otherwise is simply stockholm syndrome.

Add more severe penalties for missing timer like possibility to lose exp (delevel) or possibility of your gear breaking (deleted) and see how toxic comunity will get.

[Triceron]

The desire to have an efficient run with out failure is what drives toxicity and gate keeping. The same mind sets exists with or with out timers so the timers and extra rewards for meeting timers are not the cause.

Well, of course it exists. People will be toxic when in an LFR that goes south as well, there's really nothing to do about that.

But what I'm talking about is more specifically how the meta has defined the expectation of what is considered a bar of 'failure', by not meeting a certain standard. And steps are being made, by the community, to guarantee a successful run. That bar is not just 'completing a Mythic+', it's tuned towards 'completing a Mythic+ within the timer'. That raises the bar of expectation of what is considered 'failure'.

And I think I've clearly illustrated how Greater Rifts pretty much avoids that whole scenario, by not having the timer be associated as failing any particular desire. If you're just talking about people being toxic and we can't do anything about it, then sure, that's also true, since there are definitely people who will be toxic in GR's as casual as they are too. But the point I'm making isn't getting rid of toxicity completely, it's removing a cause of a certain symptom that the community is defining as the meta. So long as the Rewards made more appropriate to the level of challenge and deemed more of a bonus *by the community*, then that cuts down a lot more toxicity.

Same can be said of LFR and taking out the Tier loot that it used to reward. That cut down a *lot* of toxicity that was coming from more hardcore players feeling like they need to run LFR to complete a Tier bonus. Changes like that helped ease out community expectations of what content is considered standard, and what expectations they have to get it completed efficiently.

[cparle87]

I didn't mean it from a purely gearing-based reward system. I meant the overall sense of a proper MMORPG setting, with activities that can be done within. The open world of the Shadowlands is all about clicking between FPs, going to Oribos and to the next zone, where everything you do is meaningless one patch into the future.

Making it easy to obtain the things you mentioned, while having to do very little, is also a symptom of the same problem. I think the same way as you do. Giving too much for too little or too little for too much effort are two sides of the same coin.

Um, you mean basically WoW from the beginning? Click on the flight path, get where you want to go? Gear gets replaced when the next tier comes out. That's not a new thing. Unless you're talking super early WoW when you couldn't even go afk on the flight points cause you'd only go to the next stop then have to manually set the next one.

I also disagree with the symptom of the problem stuff. For some people the open world is their endgame. They've been upset for years that they were basically second class citizens because they had time or interest constraints. Now that the gap between casuals and hardcores is smaller, now a different subsection of the community is complaining. The "why do these filthy casuals get to come within 20 ilvls of me doing just open world content" folks.

[Caerrona]

I am sorry, but this does not equal to real life terms.

People get declined, because they are 1 lower ilvl than the next guy.

It is a huge problem, that you decline majority of the people.

It is too punshing.

Feels like you are playing a different game than me

Get a higher ilvl then?

2 mages both 1800 rating, why would i take the 221 over the 222? literally 0 reason. im not going to have a round of interviews in discord and comb hundreds of logs.

Don't be bad, get gear, do higher keys.

Stop complaining about 15s when you get out dpsed by the healer in a 7.

[Daffan]

What is the pros and cons of key degradation on failure?

[Athorha]

Its blizzards fault for forcing you to play with non friends in an mmo.

[Soon-TM]

M+ is just Diablo 3 Greater Rifts.

The reason it works well in Diablo 3 is because you can solo. It's not mandatory group content.

Aaaaaaand we have a winner.

Idk what was Blizzard thinking when they looked at certain ARPG mechanics and crudely inserted them into WoW. Besides, the whole M+ systems place a disproportionate share of overall responsibility on the healer, and especially on the tank, when compared to your average DPS. The result, of course, is that even those who play hybrid classes prefer to go DPS, if only because it's less stressing. This is compounded by systems such as legendaries, whether it's the Legion or the SL version, which really discourage the more casual folks from gearing their healing/tanking offspec (should they ever wanted to in the first place, see above).

The overall result is that there is a huge disproportion between # of DPS and # of healers/tanks. Of course this isn't a new development, it was happening already during freaking Vanilla. But I still think it has gotten worse over time, except maybe during Legion, when tanks were braindead to play (warrior/paladin at least) in M+.