Who's to blame here?

[kaminaris]

Aaaaaaand we have a winner.

Idk what was Blizzard thinking when they looked at certain ARPG mechanics and crudely inserted them into WoW. Besides, the whole M+ systems place a disproportionate share of overall responsibility on the healer, and especially on the tank, when compared to your average DPS. The result, of course, is that even those who play hybrid classes prefer to go DPS, if only because it's less stressing. This is compounded by systems such as legendaries, whether it's the Legion or the SL version, which really discourage the more casual folks from gearing their healing/tanking offspec (should they ever wanted to in the first place, see above).

The overall result is that there is a huge disproportion between # of DPS and # of healers/tanks. Of course this isn't a new development, it was happening already during freaking Vanilla. But I still think it has gotten worse over time, except maybe during Legion, when tanks were braindead to play (warrior/paladin at least) in M+.

Thats not the reason. Group or solo isn't even remotely close to actual issue which is simply:

Rifts and Grifts are much shorter experience with virtually no penalty at all for not finishing/timing it, you can go again immediately (and at any level) and almost infinitely. Thus there is no pressure at all unless you push for rankings.

Remove idiotic score from M+, rankings, remove timer, make it much shorter experience and you will have the same results.

[Soon-TM]

Thats not the reason. Group or solo isn't even remotely close to actual issue which is simply:

Rifts and Grifts are much shorter experience with virtually no penalty at all for not finishing/timing it, you can go again immediately (and at any level) and almost infinitely. Thus there is no pressure at all unless you push for rankings.

Remove idiotic score from M+, rankings, remove timer, make it much shorter experience and you will have the same results.

While I agree with everything in your post, I think there are also deeper reasons for the issue presented in the OP. But yeah, removing the timers, rankings, and all that esport-like BS would be dope.

[kaminaris]

While I agree with everything in your post, I think there are also deeper reasons for the issue presented in the OP. But yeah, removing the timers, rankings, and all that esport-like BS would be dope.

If they wanted to copy rifts it would have to be:

No key, you go in and select any of the unlocked levels, finish in time? Unlock next level (or +2 if done exceptionally fast). Or if there is have to be a key its not dungeon specific nor level specific just A KEY and you can get loads of it from anything in game.
timer doesn't serve any purpose except for unlocking next level.
No weekly bingo lottery or chest, you just get the gear at the end of run.
Gear scales up to max ilvl.
Dungeons are lot shorter on time (no 50 minute bullcrap)
Affixes completely redesigned.

[MoanaLisa]

Players.

Players choose to be assholes. No system makes anyone normal become an asshole online. It's an issue of personal responsibility. I deal with the "systems" as well and guess what? I don't engage in hostile insults or any of what people define as toxic.

Now that that has been said: Blizzard continues to double down on turning a PVE experience that is at its foundations co-operative in nature to something that is competitive. It's a very dumb thing to do and I really wish they would stop it.

[kaminaris]

Players.

Players choose to be assholes. No system makes anyone normal become an asshole online. It's an issue of personal responsibility. I deal with the "systems" as well and guess what? I don't engage in hostile insults or any of what people define as toxic.

Now that that has been said: Blizzard continues to double down on turning a PVE experience that is at its foundations co-operative in nature to something that is competitive. It's a very dumb thing to do and I really wish they would stop it.

That is incorrect, you aren't born evil or an asshole. It's the environment that shapes you. People don't chose to be assholes.

And blizzard simply created environment that draws in assholes and shapes up other players to behave accordingly.

It's really that simple and can be demonstrated with different game communities.

[Kithelle]

Every single system from every game in the history of gaming, has a way of "breeding toxic behaviour" - I challenge you to find one that isn't. Even something as benign as transmogs can make people toxic.

At the end of the day, the players are responsible for their own behaviour, nobody else. Systems don't inherently breed toxicity. People who are unable to control their feelings towards them, do.

It's easy to pin blame on something else, because people in general online don't like owning up to their own shortcomings as a person.

Yup

Isn't a online game you can play where you wont find toxic people...whether is be cheaters, trolls, or elitists....always gonna have people being toxic.

[MoanaLisa]

It's the environment that shapes you. People don't chose to be assholes.

Have you read this forum (or mostly any other) in any depth? Do you imagine that people aren't choosing to be assholes here once in a while?

People make choices. Weak-minded people blame others for their bad choices.

[rhorle]

That is incorrect, you aren't born evil or an asshole. It's the environment that shapes you. People don't chose to be assholes. And blizzard simply created environment that draws in assholes and shapes up other players to behave accordingly.

That is a contradiction. The environment can't draw in toxic people if toxic people only become toxic because the environment. The system doesn't require toxicity in order to make use of it. It just doesn't do anything to stop it.

[Ryzeth]

That is incorrect, you aren't born evil or an asshole. It's the environment that shapes you. People don't chose to be assholes.

And blizzard simply created environment that draws in assholes and shapes up other players to behave accordingly.

It's really that simple and can be demonstrated with different game communities.

People do choose to be assholes, though.

The only one who's responsible for how you act, is yourself.

[WowIsDead64]

Who's to blame here?


[1]Blizzard for developing such systems where it breeds toxic behaviour or the type of players that are in the WoW Community?


Scenario Case:

Mythic+ as a function is great idea. It produces replayability, may replace raiding to an extent, but the premade LFG system is a disaster. I now see people more speaking about the mythic+ situation, where you get declined for many hours at a time, leaving majority of players frustrated.

On the flip side I understand mythic+ key holders want a smooth/fast run, because it is too punshing if you fail, the cycle will continue, unless Blizzard decides to lesser the punishements, then people wouldn't care about success/failure ratio and decrease the decline ratio followed by increased Accept ratio in the LFG Premade tool.

Coming back to the point made in [1], who is to blame, at the end of the day?

Nobody. It has been told many times already: social interaction - is double-edged sword. It has two sides of a coin. It has both positive and negative moments. And if you aren't ready to suffer from negative side of social interaction - then it isn't for you. Become casual and play solo content. That's it.

[KrayZ33]

First of all, most people think they get declined even though in fact just someone else was chosen.
If you open up a group yourself and post your key, leave the keyboard for 20 seconds to grab a drink and check your possible invites - give me one reason as to why someone wouldn't just pick the best scorer/best ilvl or the best class.

If you think you have to wait 30 minutes to get your group done, you are wrong.

The people who do that are surely the minority. Most people I play with and myself included, would already start moaning if they had to wait 5 minutes for the last guy and say "just invite the next applicant"

Even if I do a +0. If I get people to apply to my key that are 236, 234 233, 200, 202 I will pick the 230+ guys as I'd have to go out of my way to invite the other 2. I have no reason to do so. I'm not getting a bonus, I'm just "punishing" myself with a longer dungeon run.
Why would I do that for someone I don't know and for someone who could be the biggest WoW-asshole in town. It's not like just because someone has ilvl 200, he is one of the"nice guys"


And if you do difficult content, you don't want luggage.
You wouldn't hire an amateur either for an expert job. As long as options remain, why would anyone pick the worst option.

If someone wants to do group content, then he should just find a freaking group like a normal human being.
If somone can't find the time to do so, he should open up your own key.
And then let's see who *he* is going to invite...
At some point, people have to accept that this is an MMORPG and you need to interact with people.
And at some point in time, people have to accept that you *can* interact with people to solve these issues.

[Caerrona]

First of all, most people think they get declined even though in fact just someone else was chosen.
If you open up a group yourself and post your key, leave the keyboard for 20 seconds to grab a drink and check your possible invites - give me one reason as to why someone wouldn't just pick the best scorer/best ilvl or the best class.

If you think you have to wait 30 minutes to get your group done, you are wrong.

The people who do that are surely the minority.

Even if I do a +0. If I get people to apply to my key that are 236, 234 233, 200, 202 I will pick the 230+ guys as I'd have to go out of my way to invite the other 2. I have no reason to do so. I'm not getting a bonus, I'm just "punishing" myself with a longer dungeon run.
Why would I do that for someone I don't know and for someone who could be the biggest WoW-asshole in town. It's not like just because someone has ilvl 200, he is one of the"nice guys"


And if you do difficult content, you don't want luggage.
You wouldn't hire an amateur either for an expert job. As long as options remain, why would anyone pick the worst option.

^ and the people complaining here are the 200 ilvl low dps that thinks they deserve a spot because they queued up. When the 236 will make the run double digits % faster.

MAKE YOUR OWN GROUPS. EVERYONE GETS A KEY.

[Nite92]

Who's to blame here?


[1]Blizzard for developing such systems where it breeds toxic behaviour or the type of players that are in the WoW Community?


Scenario Case:

Mythic+ as a function is great idea. It produces replayability, may replace raiding to an extent, but the premade LFG system is a disaster. I now see people more speaking about the mythic+ situation, where you get declined for many hours at a time, leaving majority of players frustrated.

On the flip side I understand mythic+ key holders want a smooth/fast run, because it is too punshing if you fail, the cycle will continue, unless Blizzard decides to lesser the punishements, then people wouldn't care about success/failure ratio and decrease the decline ratio followed by increased Accept ratio in the LFG Premade tool.

Coming back to the point made in [1], who is to blame, at the end of the day?

Just make your own group if you get declined for hours.....

[Elim Garak]

It was blizzard who decided that you cannot "queue" for a random party mythic+, and that allows people to be toxic when picking the party, and during the whole experience.

[Nzx]

where you get declined for many hours at a time

This literally does not happen. If you're going to complain about something, be fucking realistic. I have gone zero to KSM entirely pugging on two different off meta characters in the last season, with no paid boosts, and without even clearing heroic raid on either of the characters (to give you an indication of how undergeared they both were). I also did not have either of them linked to a main with any RIO score or any of the other BS people come up with to give themselves excuses and blame anyone and anything but themselves.

Yes, it takes time. No, you can't really skip key levels despite being "good enough" to do a 10 when you've only cleared 7s. But it's an absolute categorical fucking lie that anyone sits around getting denied for "many hours at a time" and it's also pathetic if you sit around getting denied to groups because you refuse to make your own and then blame Blizzard for the social requirements their players have. Stop looking for someone to blame - you have every single tool you need to clear whatever key level you want.

[Elim Garak]

This literally does not happen. If you're going to complain about something, be fucking realistic. I have gone zero to KSM entirely pugging on two different off meta characters in the last season, with no paid boosts, and without even clearing heroic raid on either of the characters (to give you an indication of how undergeared they both were). I also did not have either of them linked to a main with any RIO score or any of the other BS people come up with to give themselves excuses and blame anyone and anything but themselves.

Yes, it takes time. No, you can't really skip key levels despite being "good enough" to do a 10 when you've only cleared 7s. But it's an absolute categorical fucking lie that anyone sits around getting denied for "many hours at a time" and it's also pathetic if you sit around getting denied to groups because you refuse to make your own and then blame Blizzard for the social requirements their players have. Stop looking for someone to blame - you have every single tool you need to clear whatever key level you want.

They: "I experienced hours of denial"
You: "Liar! I haven't experienced hours of denial"
Better you: "Oh wow, I didn't have such an experience, don't give up, form your own party"

[kaminaris]

Have you read this forum (or mostly any other) in any depth? Do you imagine that people aren't choosing to be assholes here once in a while?

People make choices. Weak-minded people blame others for their bad choices.

That is again, incorrect.
https://www.fastcompany.com/90449165...-than-we-think

So, for instance, in an environment where the costs of waiting are high, people might be consistently impatient.

It's literally the issue of M+.

Yes you can make choices, be different but ultimately its rather exception to totally stand out rather than blend.
It is also pretty common to behave differently when in different environment.

- - - Updated - - -

People do choose to be assholes, though.

The only one who's responsible for how you act, is yourself.

Nope, that is false. Your environment shapes you more than you think, read up some articles.

[Semihagez]

I do think Blizzard pushes ppl to do M+ too hard. .As a raider myself, I really only have a few hours to play per week and I dedicated myself to raid. However the raid loot drop is so terrible you ended up having to rely on Greater Vault to get loot. Well guess what.. if you want to have more options in greater vault, you have to do M+ especailly during progressions (I skipped BfA, but both CN and SoD are definitly more difficult than the first two raids of Legion).

That kind of forces me to group with M+ players. But like many have said, the system for M+ really isn't for casual solo because the system isn't designed to teach players. And before you say that you should have learnt everything in M0. That is just plain non sense because you really need to know about the affixes and they only way to understand how different affixes affects each different pulls is really to try them and know what works and what doesn't work.

[Ryzeth]

Nope, that is false. Your environment shapes you more than you think, read up some articles.

Nope, you choose how you react to things. That's an undeniable fact.

If someone rages at me, I make the conscious decision to either a) be toxic back, b) remain calm in my talking to them, or c) distance myself from them. Only one of those reactions are 'unacceptable'

[Nzx]

They: "I experienced hours of denial"
You: "Liar! I haven't experienced hours of denial"
Better you: "Oh wow, I didn't have such an experience, don't give up, form your own party"

Nah. Engaging with liars and doomers got us to this point already. No amount of coddling will ever get them to accept that they are entirely responsible for their own failure to achieve whatever it is they set out to achieve, rather than Blizzard, or other players, or their class, or their spec, or whatever other bullshit excuse they've invented to protect their fee fees. Kowtowing to the weak-minded and/or weak-willed only makes everything worse.