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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Poppen View Post
    is there an auto-run button? I always keybinded my 10 to autorun in wow and I'd like to do the same for FF14.
    Yes, in keybind menu -> movement -> turn on/off auto-run
    Ship has been abandoned.
    ---

    NextUI for XIV


  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    I can think of a recent one actually, though this might be a personal failing on my part. Council of Blood in Castle Nathria. I actually had to watch a video in order to understand what the game was trying to tell me to do for the dance because it didn't feel very intuitive at all.
    Haha, but i bet when you found out you had a D'oh! moment, because then you're like well ofc right, it makes almost too much sense, no worries you're not alone on that one. Oh you mean that huge spotlight is just for little o me? D'oh!

    My other fav (well in lfr only) was prance forward, shashay left, boogie down, or shimmy right...

    What? Into that scary af looking red death aura on the ground.

    When you know the raids well, lfr is so much fun. First spotlight half the raid dead, then the Danse Macabre, almost everyone remaining lol, which was totally me on both occasions when i tested lfr before i joined a proper raid team.
    Last edited by xpsync; 2021-07-21 at 05:12 PM.

  3. #243
    Herald of the Titans Advent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xpsync View Post
    Haha, but i bet when you found out you had a D'oh! moment, because then you're like well ofc right, it makes almost too much sense, no worries you're not alone on that one. Oh you mean that huge spotlight is just for little o me? D'oh!

    My other fav (well in lfr only) was prance forward, shashay left, boogie down, or shimmy right...

    What? Into that scary af looking red death aura on the ground.

    When you know the raids well, lfr is so much fun. First spotlight half the raid dead, then the Danse Macabre, almost everyone remaining lol, which was totally me on both occasions when i tested lfr before i joined a proper raid team.
    Actually what happened was that I ran into the spotlight, and either ran too far/not far enough and didn't complete the dance, or I ran in the wrong direction because the game didn't state that I was supposed to orient myself toward the bosses to start.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    That's weird. I just don't know why they're needed except in ranked PVP.

    Fair enough. I get that. I always struggled finding a guild to raid with because I want top 100 quality, but only want to play only Ret and only 6 hours a week. That only leaves on average 1-2 guilds a tier, and they're NEVER looking for melee.

    Scalable content is kind of 2 major pieces for me. Features that can be used and grown upon as you move from patch to patch/expansion to expansion and gives room for different player styles to enjoy it rather than something created for the lowest common denominator. Looking at WoW is stuff like the transmog or mount collection systems. Stuff like flex raiding, or Mythic+.

    In FF14 sure we have stuff like Palace of the Dead -> Heaven on High, but then that got left behind to rot. We had Eureka, but it was nothing but a glorified hunt train, which is some of FF14's most derivative content or worse, just grinding mobs casually in the outworld. FF14 does a good job of keeping most of it's old content rewarding, but then fails miserably in other aspects of it.
    Was it left behind though? I played some Palace of the Dead earlier today and had a lot of fun. In WoW, I wouldn't be allowed to play it without overpowering it.

    Flex raiding is just an absolutely awful system that has caused nothing but problems like guilds targeting the easiest number of players per fight.

    I don't understand your implication that FF14 doesn't allow mount collection, but obviously we all know the transom system is lacking.

    You're comparing a different metric than I am though altogether though. I wasn't comparing the dude who only does world quests against the #1 ranked raider. I'm comparing the #1 ranked raider against his peers, the other raiders across both games demonstrating that the ACTUAL balance isn't that far off.

    You want me to compare uninformed players vs. informed players? Why for what purpose? Even at the median %'s comparing BLM across savage vs. normal there's a 35% DPS disparity among their players. For Ret median %, it's a 37% DPS differential across mythic to heroic. It's a 28% DPS differential from Heroic to Normal for Rets. ilvl muddies the waters a good bit here though.
    I wasn't comparing that either. What I am saying is that just because things work out at one play level doesn't mean they work out at another play level. At the highest play level, everyone is using the "right" stuff. That isn't the case at other play tiers, and the disparity gets larger the more you go down. Just because the top 1% has less of a difference between them doesn't mean that that disparity is the same at the 50th percentile of players. The farther you go down, the less "right" everyone's build is, and easier to play rotations are going to close the gap on harder to play rotations. Simply put: Balance at the 99th percentile doesn't mean balance at the 50th percentile, or vice versa.

    The median percentile of people who put their logs on websites is not the median percentile of players, so I just dismiss that argument.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    At least you haven't seen car mount yet.


    It gets worse. ARR zones are compact and filled with interesting vistas. From HW onwards maps get three times bigger (because of flying) and six times less detailed. Textures are very low res even in the newest content.
    I actually kinda like the big zones with lots of space between landmarks. It makes it feel more immersive. I hate when points of interest are unrealistically stacked on top of each other like Im at fucking six flags.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  5. #245
    Learning the hard way that MSQ experience and level requirements are inconsistent. Started out easily being able to level at least 3 jobs simultaneously and still be overleveled for the MSQ. Early to mid-30s had to reduce that to 2 jobs, by 40 I had to abandon all but my main job as there wasn't enough EXP for anything else. Soon that wasn't enough and I had to start doing leveling roulettes because I'd be 30% of a level too low to accept the next MSQ, now I'm 46 and can't get the next one until level 49.

    Seems like once you hit 30 you should cast all other jobs to the side if you want to keep maintaining an uninterrupted MSQ cadence. (This is without the Road to 70 buff.) As much as I usually enjoy doing content outside the MSQ, being in a position where I have to grind it for 3 levels in order to continue sucks.
    "We must now recognize that the greatest threat of freedom for us all is if we go back to eating ourselves out from within." - John Anderson

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    Learning the hard way that MSQ experience and level requirements are inconsistent. Started out easily being able to level at least 3 jobs simultaneously and still be overleveled for the MSQ. Early to mid-30s had to reduce that to 2 jobs, by 40 I had to abandon all but my main job as there wasn't enough EXP for anything else. Soon that wasn't enough and I had to start doing leveling roulettes because I'd be 30% of a level too low to accept the next MSQ, now I'm 46 and can't get the next one until level 49.

    Seems like once you hit 30 you should cast all other jobs to the side if you want to keep maintaining an uninterrupted MSQ cadence. (This is without the Road to 70 buff.) As much as I usually enjoy doing content outside the MSQ, being in a position where I have to grind it for 3 levels in order to continue sucks.
    Yeah, you need to be pretty devoted to it once you hit heavensward (it gets even trickier there) and you start aggroing every mob in hundred yalm radius on your alt (whilst your level 60 main you leveled 2.1-2.5 through gets a free ride). I was kinda fine running a mix of ninja and whm. But then my whm got her ironworks and i stormed through the msq on her (no real issues running dps with my whm, plus max survival made the choice a no brainer). The poor ninja got left behind. By the time i was ready to pick it back up, the disadvantages just hugely outweighed the advantages. The result is that i was level... 70ish? by the time i hit stormblood, and currently 75 nearing completion of the 4.0 msq.

    I dont really mind. I want every single ounce of potency to cheese my way through healing dungeons and trials. So kinda fine with the idea of sitting in lvl80 gear running through shadowbringers. But i do miss just switching between classes. I even tried a redmage for a bit, but was pulled back by the idea of running around coerthas again. I guess its an end game thing for my playstyle.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    Actually what happened was that I ran into the spotlight, and either ran too far/not far enough and didn't complete the dance, or I ran in the wrong direction because the game didn't state that I was supposed to orient myself toward the bosses to start.
    I wen't in knowing nothing, then yeah, hit the vid too and was like omg ofc, lol.
    looking out of my lonely room day after day

  8. #248
    Only started yesterday after my brother convinced me to pick it up. I really enjoy it till now, but there were already two things that annoyed me:

    1) I don't really like the graphics style of any of the races. So I just went for the memes and made a Lalafel. Sill thinking about it, if I stick with it, or maybe make one of the Lizard people, which seemed to be the most okay ones. Though it's somehow funny when one of those brutes, where I'm not even reaching their knee, talks to me as if I'd be the hero in the quest.

    2) DoT duration / damage: This might seem like a weird point, and I'm sure it will change later on. But in the beginning for the Arcanist, the dots do so little damage compared to the direct damage spell, that neither pulling multiple mobs / dotting them nor using them against one mob makes sense. Which basically means, I more or less only use one single damage spell, and for the first 10 levels (outside of some fights where 2-3 mobs were forced, and a FATE quest I did) I only used that one spell. I'll see if that gets much better.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Frostfred View Post
    Only started yesterday after my brother convinced me to pick it up. I really enjoy it till now, but there were already two things that annoyed me:

    1) I don't really like the graphics style of any of the races. So I just went for the memes and made a Lalafel. Sill thinking about it, if I stick with it, or maybe make one of the Lizard people, which seemed to be the most okay ones. Though it's somehow funny when one of those brutes, where I'm not even reaching their knee, talks to me as if I'd be the hero in the quest.
    Yeah, art style is very subjective. I hope you find something that interests you enough to continue playing.

    2) DoT duration / damage: This might seem like a weird point, and I'm sure it will change later on. But in the beginning for the Arcanist, the dots do so little damage compared to the direct damage spell, that neither pulling multiple mobs / dotting them nor using them against one mob makes sense. Which basically means, I more or less only use one single damage spell, and for the first 10 levels (outside of some fights where 2-3 mobs were forced, and a FATE quest I did) I only used that one spell. I'll see if that gets much better.
    Arcanist evolves into Summoner for DPS and Scholar for Healing at level 30. Summoner gets a number of traits that increase the damage of their DoTs however the main reason the DoTs are placed on mobs is to ensure the spell "Fester" (gained at level 18) does maximum damage, as it does pitiful damage by itself, but it's potency is increased by 100 for each of the 2 main DoTs Arcanist/Summoner cast (Bio and Miasma). Not that the base DoT's are worthless, as they do still make up a sizable portion of your damage, but they aren't nearly as potent as the direct damage spells and later the summon Bahamut and Summon Phoenix portions of your kit.

    That said, I genuinely do hope you like Summoner (I love the aesthetic and the lore for it), but it's not in a great spot game play wise at later levels despite it's high damage potential. Just a friendly warning that it may evolve or change into something you really don't like so I'd advise looking into it a bit to see if it's something you want to stick with or if there are other jobs you'd also be interested in that won't disappoint you down the line.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Yeah, art style is very subjective. I hope you find something that interests you enough to continue playing.
    Yes, I agree! It's very subjective. Maybe the art style and my Lalafell will grow on me (badum tzzzz) over time as I get more used to it. I rarely played jRPGs in the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Arcanist evolves into Summoner for DPS and Scholar for Healing at level 30. Summoner gets a number of traits that increase the damage of their DoTs however the main reason the DoTs are placed on mobs is to ensure the spell "Fester" (gained at level 18) does maximum damage, as it does pitiful damage by itself, but it's potency is increased by 100 for each of the 2 main DoTs Arcanist/Summoner cast (Bio and Miasma). Not that the base DoT's are worthless, as they do still make up a sizable portion of your damage, but they aren't nearly as potent as the direct damage spells and later the summon Bahamut and Summon Phoenix portions of your kit.

    That said, I genuinely do hope you like Summoner (I love the aesthetic and the lore for it), but it's not in a great spot game play wise at later levels despite it's high damage potential. Just a friendly warning that it may evolve or change into something you really don't like so I'd advise looking into it a bit to see if it's something you want to stick with or if there are other jobs you'd also be interested in that won't disappoint you down the line.
    Aye, I took it with going towards scholar in mind. The game seems very friendly towards switching specs and leveling others, so it shouldn't be an issue to check out also other specs sooner or later, if I stay for longer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    The thing about DoTs is that open world normal mobs are often just not going to live long enough for them to matter anyway. They're just going to die to direct damage before the DoTs tick a lot.
    Aye, I guess that's the issue. The entire dot would do more damage than the direct damage spell, but the 30 seconds are just too long for anything to survive as long for now. As said, I think it'll get better later on anyway (as @Katchii also pointed out, with Fester), though it's kinda weird to have 3 damage spells and use only one for such a long time. At least in that case, WoW did a better job to get the balancing quite right even in the beginning at low levels - affli lock was the last class I leveled from the get go, and the only twink I played in Shadowlands, though never reached max level.
    Last edited by Frostfred; 2021-07-22 at 02:20 PM.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Was it left behind though? I played some Palace of the Dead earlier today and had a lot of fun. In WoW, I wouldn't be allowed to play it without overpowering it.
    In that it hasn't had any appreciable updates or even a new version for the newest expansion? That's the definition of left behind. It's still functional and that's great, but once you outgrow it's use it becomes a useless feature.

    Flex raiding is just an absolutely awful system that has caused nothing but problems like guilds targeting the easiest number of players per fight.
    That's interesting. I haven't had this issue. We've always ran whatever we had and invited whoever wanted to come. It was a huge boon and savings to us to be able to bring whoever we wanted, or if people weren't around we could still raid for fun.

    I don't understand your implication that FF14 doesn't allow mount collection, but obviously we all know the transom system is lacking.
    You misunderstood. I gave ff14 points for being good at this, as well as other items, but took away points in areas I felt it lacking. Much like PotD above, I gave points for it originally, but it also loses points because it's abandoned content for now unless they bring it back in EW.

    I wasn't comparing that either. What I am saying is that just because things work out at one play level doesn't mean they work out at another play level. At the highest play level, everyone is using the "right" stuff. That isn't the case at other play tiers, and the disparity gets larger the more you go down. Just because the top 1% has less of a difference between them doesn't mean that that disparity is the same at the 50th percentile of players. The farther you go down, the less "right" everyone's build is, and easier to play rotations are going to close the gap on harder to play rotations. Simply put: Balance at the 99th percentile doesn't mean balance at the 50th percentile, or vice versa.

    The median percentile of people who put their logs on websites is not the median percentile of players, so I just dismiss that argument.
    Irrelevant because that paradigm exists regardless of the game so the data is still true for both segments. Your dismissal of my analysis just shows that you'd rather push an agenda than actually look at the facts and frankly it's disappointing. I'm sorry that you aren't able to actually see that you're wrong about the balance. Sure it's worse, no argument there, but it's not THAT much worse, despite the staggering complexity difference.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    It's even more fun once the MSQ starts being gated by item level.
    I believe i only ran into this in post ShB MSQ every new dungeon i came up to i had to then drop into the city buy a few crafted 510 pieces to push past the required ilvl. Which certainly wasn't enjoyable and pretty much drained all my accumulated gil.

  13. #253
    itemization
    voice acting
    tab targeting issues
    net code issues
    .

  14. #254
    Don't play it but I looked through it at a glance.

    - Graphics look horrible, like a game from 2010. WoW's kept up well over the years, makes it look like an indy game.

    - The trailers showing pretty boy asian-looking characters but having deep voices with a british accent... ugh. Absolutely horrible. It's like how 15 year old me imagined himself as a superhero.

    - The buttrock used in the trailers makes it look generic and cheap.

    - most races seem to be 'human, but....'. An MMO without race variance feels weird.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    In that it hasn't had any appreciable updates or even a new version for the newest expansion? That's the definition of left behind. It's still functional and that's great, but once you outgrow it's use it becomes a useless feature.
    It seems again like you are asking for something that really clearly failed in WoW to be added to FF14. How did endless system replacement work for wow? It sucks. I like that FF14 leaves its features playable and doesn't screw them up. We don't need a new iteration of everything every expansion. Let stuff breath. We don't need 20 half assed new versions of content that is still playable anyway.

    That's interesting. I haven't had this issue. We've always ran whatever we had and invited whoever wanted to come. It was a huge boon and savings to us to be able to bring whoever we wanted, or if people weren't around we could still raid for fun.
    I've been in multiple situations in multiple guilds across multiple servers where people were asked to leave to make an encounter easier. I want tightly tuned, well designed content. Flex ruins that. It is necessarily true that fixed raid sizes can be more tightly designed than raids that support varied parties. There's a reason that 10 man raids that were made to be 10 man feel great, but doing modern raids as 10 man feels weird because every room feels gigantic since has to support three times that many people too.

    You misunderstood. I gave ff14 points for being good at this, as well as other items, but took away points in areas I felt it lacking. Much like PotD above, I gave points for it originally, but it also loses points because it's abandoned content for now unless they bring it back in EW.
    They made a newer version of the same feature in Stormblood. I don't know why they need a new version of every feature in every expansion. That leads to the bloated mess of wow.

    Irrelevant because that paradigm exists regardless of the game so the data is still true for both segments. Your dismissal of my analysis just shows that you'd rather push an agenda than actually look at the facts and frankly it's disappointing. I'm sorry that you aren't able to actually see that you're wrong about the balance. Sure it's worse, no argument there, but it's not THAT much worse, despite the staggering complexity difference.
    You are wrong. Does that paradigm exist to some degree regardless of game? Yes. However, to pretend that a game with character customization and more varied gearing has it to the same extent as a game without those things is just flatly wrong. Someone with the wrong setup in WoW is going to be disastrously behind someone with the right setup like more than 50% behind in some cases even if they both play at the same level.

    You want to pretend that we can look at the top 1% and assume everything flows down evenly to the rest of both games, and that just plain does not follow.It is not a rational conclusion. Even if both games had no character customization it would not be a rational conclusion. It's a hasty generalization fallacy with a side of cream skimming. You can't generalize about the other 99% by looking at patterns in a cream skimmed 1%, and then stretching that to reach across two games and assume that your already fallacious assumption must span both evenly is even worse.

    For you to call this "fact" is ridiculous. A comparative example of your fallacy would be:

    The 99th percentile of lawyers own large homes.
    The 99th percentile of custom support managers own large homes.
    Therefore, the 50th percentile of lawyers and the 50th percentile of customer support managers must also have comparable homes to each other.

    Can you really not see how that does not follow? It's wrong before you even compare the two sets.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    Don't play it but I looked through it at a glance.

    - Graphics look horrible, like a game from 2010. WoW's kept up well over the years, makes it look like an indy game.

    - The trailers showing pretty boy asian-looking characters but having deep voices with a british accent... ugh. Absolutely horrible. It's like how 15 year old me imagined himself as a superhero.

    - The buttrock used in the trailers makes it look generic and cheap.

    - most races seem to be 'human, but....'. An MMO without race variance feels weird.
    "Bro I read the back of a LoTR book and it sounds boring and generic. My opinion is very important."
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    What does this even have to do with WoW?
    The conversation them and I are having is "Features from wow Id like to see in FF14", explicitly.

    XIV is really good about keeping some content "alive" but also just abandons others. It's not really something that's up for debate.
    As does any living game, but the question is adding scalable content *like in wow*, and wows solutions to these issues are horrendous and way worse than how FF14 handles it.

    >I want tightly tuned content.
    >I'm doing Flex.

    C'mon now.
    No idea what point you are even trying to make.

    The hell kind of blithering nonsense is this? We're talking about class balance, not economic disparity, jeez.
    What constitutes valid logic doesn't magically get suspended when you are talking about video games.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    But i do miss just switching between classes. I even tried a redmage for a bit, but was pulled back by the idea of running around coerthas again. I guess its an end game thing for my playstyle.
    Yeah, being able to switch was nice, especially since I was undecided on what job I wanted to stick with, plus having one melee and one ranged was great. This is probably the one pro to WoW specs (particularly hybrid classes) over the job system. I like dragoon (my main job), but I'm not used to playing melee DPS extensively and I'm not sure it's what I want to be devoted to until max level. Most of the jobs are fun, but none of them have hit me as "this is it" yet so I'm interested in red mage and machinist. Based on job descriptions, dancer is the one I really wanted to try but obviously can't on the trial.

    Next time I think I'm going to slow down a lot, probably do side quests while leveling. Bouncing around the world doing MSQ isn't much fun on its own. I've been finishing up my hunting log for EXP and many places I'd never been to before because the MSQ didn't send me there. My trial character I wanted to just get a feel for the game and see what I'd be getting myself into (because I loathe the idea of mandatory raids), so I've been in more of a rush than I would be otherwise. I'm not even at the make or break content yet.
    "We must now recognize that the greatest threat of freedom for us all is if we go back to eating ourselves out from within." - John Anderson

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    It seems again like you are asking for something that really clearly failed in WoW to be added to FF14. How did endless system replacement work for wow? It sucks. I like that FF14 leaves its features playable and doesn't screw them up. We don't need a new iteration of everything every expansion. Let stuff breath. We don't need 20 half assed new versions of content that is still playable anyway.
    My discussion point on scalable content is not endless system replacement. They're literally the opposite.

    The first point is designing content/systems that doesn't just get abandoned. This is things like flex, Mythic+, mount/tmog collections, etc. These types of systems set the foundation for the second piece which designing something that motivates and rewards multiple player types simultaneously.

    FF14 is pretty good about creating system/content that doesn't get abandoned. It's not perfect, but it's pretty good. Where I think they can do better is creating their content with a deeper spread across player types. So many features are bare bones or strictly intended with a singular play pattern for a singular player type and it's independent of it being battle content or side content.

    They've gotten better with some more recent iterations (like Bozja compared to Eureka), but as they get better with these things, they get worse at point 1.

    These points aren't necessarily tied to WoW (or even WoW doing them better/worse), they're merely an area where I see significant room for improvement.

    I've been in multiple situations in multiple guilds across multiple servers where people were asked to leave to make an encounter easier. I want tightly tuned, well designed content. Flex ruins that. It is necessarily true that fixed raid sizes can be more tightly designed than raids that support varied parties. There's a reason that 10 man raids that were made to be 10 man feel great, but doing modern raids as 10 man feels weird because every room feels gigantic since has to support three times that many people too.
    Bovine kinda hinted at it, but like flex wasn't designed for tightly tuned well designed content so your entire argument just collapses on itself. That's what Mythic was designed for. I'm not entirely sure why you even brought it up...you're well aware it's hypocritical.

    They made a newer version of the same feature in Stormblood. I don't know why they need a new version of every feature in every expansion. That leads to the bloated mess of wow.
    If they don't make new features or updates, the content becomes abandoned. You say you love that content isn't abandoned in FF14 and then turn around say that they don't need to update it? That's contradictory.

    Someone with the wrong setup in WoW is going to be disastrously behind someone with the right setup like more than 50% behind in some cases even if they both play at the same level.
    According to my SimC:
    • If I picked BiS talents for patchwerk and if I pick the absolute lowest performing ones it is exactly a 5.2% differential and that includes using one throughput talent that's near useless in ST. That's actually surprisingly good balance if the spread from the absolute worst to the absolute best is only 5.2%.
    • If I take my legendary off and replace it with a non garbage piece it's still only a 9.5% DPS differential. It would be less with any other throughput oriented legendary.
    • If I pick the lowest performing covenant combination possible it's a 30% differential between the best.

    Absolute WORST case scenario for Ret Paladins is roughly 45% differential in possible throughput with equal skill, but I think we can both agree that this is a stupid fucking distinction to even have to explain, but I wanted you to see it. Very few if any players will consistently make ALL wrong choices.

    You want to pretend that we can look at the top 1% and assume everything flows down evenly to the rest of both games, and that just plain does not follow.It is not a rational conclusion. Even if both games had no character customization it would not be a rational conclusion. It's a hasty generalization fallacy with a side of cream skimming. You can't generalize about the other 99% by looking at patterns in a cream skimmed 1%, and then stretching that to reach across two games and assume that your already fallacious assumption must span both evenly is even worse.
    The reality is that the meta is defined and does filter down regardless of whether you think it doesn't. I never said it flows down evenly or even all the way, but it absolutely does flow down in both games. That's literally undeniable.

    It's been a complaint for years that people hate meta sheep. It absolutely exists in both games to a serious degree (even in examples where talent choices are as small as a 5.2% difference in output). People look at it for info on what materia to meld and how much skillspeed tiers, and what openers to use or alternate rotations.

    For you to call this "fact" is ridiculous. A comparative example of your fallacy would be:

    The 99th percentile of lawyers own large homes.
    The 99th percentile of custom support managers own large homes.
    Therefore, the 50th percentile of lawyers and the 50th percentile of customer support managers must also have comparable homes to each other.

    Can you really not see how that does not follow? It's wrong before you even compare the two sets.
    The difference here is I'm looking at actual log data to make my points, where are you getting your information from? Is your claim of 50% behind in DPS based on any actual analysis? Can you explain more on that? What data points did you use so I can validate.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Yes, but you're discussing updating or expanding on systems in XIV and your response is, "But WoW did bad things!"

    It's not really a disagreement so much as a distorted sense of protectionism.

    XIV does tend to create a lot of new systems as it goes along, often discarding old ones along the way. Sometimes they're improvements to the old system, but still completely replace the old one instead of building on it. It's not ideal, but they do a pretty good job of keeping most things relevant. It's not a chief complaint of mine, but it's there.
    If someone says "Lets do this like WoW", it is perfectly reasonable to say "But how did that turn out when wow did that?"

    You certainly do have an idea.
    If you can't be bothered to articulate an idea, and prefer this weird, smug garbage, I feel justified ignoring it. It's not my responsibility to intuit what your condescension means. If you want to say something, be a grown up and say it.

    But it's not valid logic. You're trying to apply concepts from a topic whose only parallel is the usage of percentage signs.
    The topic is irrelevant. It could be about cars, or insects, or anything. You can't say "This looks similar when comparing the 99th percentile, therefore it must also be similar at the 50th percentile". That is fallacious reasoning, and it is really obvious that it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    My discussion point on scalable content is not endless system replacement. They're literally the opposite.

    The first point is designing content/systems that doesn't just get abandoned. This is things like flex, Mythic+, mount/tmog collections, etc. These types of systems set the foundation for the second piece which designing something that motivates and rewards multiple player types simultaneously.
    You are conflating a bunch of things here. Flex isn't a type of content. It's a format for how many people can enter a raid. Changing 8 man raids to support 5-10 players doesn't change what content is current or left behind or whatever. A similar thing is true for M+. It's a format for playing newer content, not a system for expanding the longevity or viability of older content. Neither of these things have anything to do with abandonment of content.

    Mythic+ has been absolutely cancerous to wow and is one of the most destructive things they have ever added to the game, so the suggestion of adding it to FF14 and ruining that game too is horrible. It's a system practically custom designed to encourage toxicity and degenerate gameplay. This is exactly the stuff I initially took umbrage with and you argued with me: You want to turn FF14 into everything that ruined WoW.

    FF14 is pretty good about creating system/content that doesn't get abandoned. It's not perfect, but it's pretty good. Where I think they can do better is creating their content with a deeper spread across player types. So many features are bare bones or strictly intended with a singular play pattern for a singular player type and it's independent of it being battle content or side content.
    What is your solution besides copying the things that made wow complete garbage for anyone who isn't interested in pushing difficult content?

    They've gotten better with some more recent iterations (like Bozja compared to Eureka), but as they get better with these things, they get worse at point 1.

    These points aren't necessarily tied to WoW (or even WoW doing them better/worse), they're merely an area where I see significant room for improvement.
    But your ideas are all rooted in copying the exact systems that made me leave wow and made almost all of my friends leave WoW. There is a game for you already. It is called wow.

    Bovine kinda hinted at it, but like flex wasn't designed for tightly tuned well designed content so your entire argument just collapses on itself. That's what Mythic was designed for. I'm not entirely sure why you even brought it up...you're well aware it's hypocritical.
    You are confusing "tightly tuned" and "well designed" for "difficult". I didn't say anything about difficulty levels. The idea that you can't well well designed content unless it is soul-crushingly difficult is absurd on its face. This is EXACTLY the shit I talked about initially and you said I was off base on: You are applying the trash, toxic wow mentality to FF14. You are telling me that I am not allowed to simultaneously want well design, tight content and also not care for very difficult content.

    If they don't make new features or updates, the content becomes abandoned. You say you love that content isn't abandoned in FF14 and then turn around say that they don't need to update it? That's contradictory.
    No, they are two different concepts. Heaven on High is not abandoned. It's a complete piece of content that you can do and enjoy whenever you want. It gives rewards that are still relevant and provides a challenge that is still relevant. Abandoned would be disallowing entry, or making it so that when I go in I kill everything in one hit. That's what wow does. It makes the old content unplayable as it was in almost every case.

    According to my SimC:
    • If I picked BiS talents for patchwerk and if I pick the absolute lowest performing ones it is exactly a 5.2% differential and that includes using one throughput talent that's near useless in ST. That's actually surprisingly good balance if the spread from the absolute worst to the absolute best is only 5.2%.
    • If I take my legendary off and replace it with a non garbage piece it's still only a 9.5% DPS differential. It would be less with any other throughput oriented legendary.
    • If I pick the lowest performing covenant combination possible it's a 30% differential between the best.

    Absolute WORST case scenario for Ret Paladins is roughly 45% differential in possible throughput with equal skill, but I think we can both agree that this is a stupid fucking distinction to even have to explain, but I wanted you to see it. Very few if any players will consistently make ALL wrong choices.
    So the right decisions can be close to a 50% difference to the wrong decisions? Thanks for proving my point.

    The reality is that the meta is defined and does filter down regardless of whether you think it doesn't. I never said it flows down evenly or even all the way, but it absolutely does flow down in both games. That's literally undeniable.
    There is no intraclass meta in FF14. That's the whole point.

    It's been a complaint for years that people hate meta sheep. It absolutely exists in both games to a serious degree (even in examples where talent choices are as small as a 5.2% difference in output). People look at it for info on what materia to meld and how much skillspeed tiers, and what openers to use or alternate rotations.
    Sure, and WoW and has all of that plus a bunch more in talents and more impactful gear choices. WoW is worse in this regard. It is absolutely undeniable. If there are more knobs to turn, there is more that can be wrong. Wow has more knobs to turn. There isn't a debate here. The question is whether you think that going to icy veins and speccing as you are told is such amazing gameplay that we need to bring it to FF14 when the tradeoff is less balance.

    The difference here is I'm looking at actual log data to make my points, where are you getting your information from? Is your claim of 50% behind in DPS based on any actual analysis? Can you explain more on that? What data points did you use so I can validate.
    Your data doesn't become good by pointing at a lack of alternative data. Your data sucks. You do not have comprehensive data. You have cream skimmed data from the people that CHOOSE to post their logs. It is worthless.

    My argument isn't about data. It is: More knobs is more imbalance.

    This conversation is largely turning into me fleeing a restaurant that force fed me shit sandwiches, and I finally found a restaurant without them, then you come in demanding they serve me more shit sandwiches at this restaurant. There is already a restaurant for you. It is called WoW. Stop trying to ruin this game for me like your demands ruined wow. Jesus Christ.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post

    "Bro I read the back of a LoTR book and it sounds boring and generic. My opinion is very important."
    That's a very dumb take. A trailer is meant to sell the game to you. I can definitely make an opinion off the trailer. It's literally meant to make me want to buy the game, and it failed on every level by being cringy and putting deep british voices on the faces of 18 year old anime pretty boys. The butt rock doesn't help.

    The game's aesthetic and lore look like something made by an 18 year old neckbeard with a fedora and a katana.

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