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  1. #681
    Quote Originally Posted by ilgynoth View Post
    That cinematic was awesome. Despite all the shitty writing Alex Scumbag Afrasiabi did in BfA and damaged her, I think Danuser got this.
    I hope that everyone who is really upset with the idea of Sylvanas getting redeemed will just cancel his sub and f off to some other game and never come back.
    Sick of all those annoying people they should just go
    Yeah, annoying people who think:
    1) This is World of Warcraft, not Sylvanas' Merry Adventures
    2) A character who commits genocide, torture, and more shouldn't get a free pass

    By the way, Danuser was the lead writer in BfA, Afrasiabi only set the general idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  2. #682
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Yeah, annoying people who think:
    1) This is World of Warcraft, not Sylvanas' Merry Adventures
    2) A character who commits genocide, torture, and more shouldn't get a free pass

    By the way, Danuser was the lead writer in BfA, Afrasiabi only set the general idea.
    No he was not. Afrasiabi was the lead writier in BfA., He was also the one who decided to go that route in BfA. Was even said in an interview by himself.
    Also, you can dislike it but if you say "I can't play this game if Sylvanas gets redeemed" then you should do exactly that. Stop playing it and move on.
    Sylvanas will 100% redeemed. Redemption doesn't mean she will be forgiven and hugged by everyone.
    A redemption is already when Sylvanas would sacrifice herself to kill the Jailer and save Anduin. This is already a redemption story.
    A full redemption story would be if Sylvanas helps us and we defeat the Jailer, she gets forgiven and has some sort of a new mission where she spents time fixing azeroth, helping nelfes etc etc.
    Thats less likely but my point is redemption has different kind of layers.
    No matter what kind of a redemption they will go, the redemption itself will happen

  3. #683
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Yeah, annoying people who think:
    1) This is World of Warcraft, not Sylvanas' Merry Adventures
    2) A character who commits genocide, torture, and more shouldn't get a free pass

    By the way, Danuser was the lead writer in BfA, Afrasiabi only set the general idea.
    Afrasiabi was the head of the entire department back then and he was both the guy who created the 'no negativity in the dojo' mentality and the guy who decided to do Mists again in order to get one up on Kosak. If anyone seriously believes that Steve "Sylvanas sad eyes in every cinematic " Danuser would cast his Ranger-General waifu to be as a puppy eater through the entirety of BFA they're kidding themselves. His own ideas with the character are also heavily beside the point, the entire bit with the Blue Man especially, but much of the most galling things regarding her character comes from Afrasiabi and BFA.

    Everything from the Sadfang fiasco to the tree is on him as creative lead. All the retcons regarding the Lich King, Dreadlords, the afterlife and Sylvanas' Blue Man connection is on Danuser.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  4. #684
    @ilgynoth I've been predicting the redemption/Kerrigan arc for years now, ever since Legion. It's dogshit writing and professed fans like yourself shouldn't want it because it robs the character of any agency or intelligence. She looks like a complete idiot with "I will never serve... except for the decade where I did and committed genocide because I was ordered to".

    @Super Dickmann You're forgetting that puppy eating is fine when she does it because it's "cool" and Danuser praised GoT S8.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  5. #685
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    he was both the guy who created the 'no negativity in the dojo'
    I doubt that.

    Primarily because that mentality didn't vanish after he left and i don't think Afrasiabi had much influence over the game aspect of WoW, let alone could enforce any mentality there and that mentality is certainly also present there.

    At best, he pitched the idea and the remaining team leads followed suit.

  6. #686
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Yeah, annoying people who think:
    1) This is World of Warcraft, not Sylvanas' Merry Adventures
    2) A character who commits genocide, torture, and more shouldn't get a free pass

    By the way, Danuser was the lead writer in BfA, Afrasiabi only set the general idea.
    I never understood the mentality of some. At this point Sylvannas as a character exists as forum troll food material. She exists just for some to use her in order to bully and spite others. That is her only reason to exist and for people to like her. They like her because her existence annoys all the rest.

    For some reason Sylvannas deserves a redemption when Arthas for example didn't, or Kelthuzad, or Sindragosa or the Four Horsemen or any other undead who's soul was marked by that split and all these were way better and more interesting characters than her and definately smarter. People can lie to themselves but the fans of her that are left want her redeemed just to rub salt to the rest. All I can say is that they butchered the story just to pamper an army of fanboys and that drove most of the veterans of the game from Warcraft 1 (including me) out of the game.

  7. #687
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I doubt that.
    Obviously not when it comes to gameplay, they're out of touch for entirely different reasons.But he's attributed with it verbatim when it comes to the story:

    “Specifically with World of Warcraft, our creative director Alex [Afrasiabi] said a wonderful thing," Krstic said. "He said our story rooms are dojos. They’re sacred places. And we try to tell a story as best we can and to make our players as happy as we can. But we try not to let the negativity enter the dojo,"
    It didn't vanish after he left because the people in the team were people who agreed with him and who were happy to work in a hugbox, unlike Metzen for example who did fess up to what he saw as writing fuck-ups later.

    @Feanoro

    We've seen how Danuser writes Sylvanas in both the Nathanos story and in Shadowlands. One of the things he constantly does is have her look sad, whine about her lot in life or need affirmation for her life choices. BFA Sylvanas has no interiority to speak of. She's an antagonistic plot device that appears to smarm, drop one liners and fuck off so that Calia/Sadfang/Anduin/whoever can look good. More than that, much like Afrasiabi did to Kosak Danuser now rehashes story beats that Afrasiabi already did. Sylvanas' chat with Delaryn and Anduin are both riffs on her dynamic with Arthas but you can see what both authors wanted out of it pretty clearly.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-07-22 at 04:16 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  8. #688
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Obviously not when it comes to gameplay, they're out of touch for entirely different reasons.
    I saw the phrase mostly associated with the gameplay aspect, hence i assumed that.

    The lore aspect needs no confirmation since SL especially, the fact that they started to sell some Sylvanas dolls right after the ending cinematic went live just shows how completely out of touch they are with the majority of their fans.

  9. #689
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I saw the phrase mostly associated with the gameplay aspect, hence i assumed that.

    The lore aspect needs no confirmation since SL especially, the fact that they started to sell some Sylvanas dolls right after the ending cinematic went live just shows how completely out of touch they are with the majority of their fans.
    I think the gameplay thing is mostly the phrase mutating over time, the original quote is about the story. It just happens to describe their gameplay mentality very well too.

    They're mostly out of touch. It's someone, in this case Afrasiabi though obviously not alone since the other writers have the same mindset, helping set up an out of touch community and others getting used to it and writing for what amounts to a small amount of twitter, which is the only place I've seen any approval of where Sylvanas's story is going. I say mostly because let's face it those Sylvanas dolls will sell like gangbusters, just like that fucking 700$ statue.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  10. #690
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Yeah, annoying people who think:
    1) This is World of Warcraft, not Sylvanas' Merry Adventures
    2) A character who commits genocide, torture, and more shouldn't get a free pass

    By the way, Danuser was the lead writer in BfA, Afrasiabi only set the general idea.
    Danuser, Afrasiabi and Hazzikostas all have some share of responsibility for the executive decisions, which made it turn out the way it did, in terms of storylines and even if the choices weren't explicitely theirs they are the leaders responsible for the project. Any one of them could have said "This sounds absolutely autistic, maybe we shouldn't do it this way." and it would have changed.

    1) I think any Sylvanas fan would wish that were the case. What it actually is more resembles "Adventures of Thrall, Jaina and WhoeverTheFuckTagsAlongForTheTimeBeing reacting to plot that entirely happens to originate in the left field half the time, which happens to be featuring Sylvanas occasionally, with radical shifts in personality every time we see her."

    Name me one of the three core pillars of plot regarding Sylvanas, which we know as hard facts.
    What is she specifically trying to achieve? (Objective)
    Why is she trying to achieve it? (Motive)
    What are the consequences of her failing to achieve it? (Stakes)



    2) Vegeta, Majin Bu, Prince Zuko, Tony Stark, Frank castle, Ghost Rider, Thanos(comicbook version after snap), Doctor Doom, Luke Skywalker and many many others.

    If it's a good well written story audiences can be tremendously forgiving and even cheer to the deaths of milions of nameless grunts, who happened to oppose the protagonist of the piece. In grand pop-culture scheme of things what Sylvanas did is actually comparably pretty tame. Where the story dove headfirst into diarrhea is that it was built on many layers of contrived character breaking choices, which was followed by a shitshow seeking to condemn and demonise the character as hard as possible, while pretending there is a grander narrative going on.
    Last edited by sighy; 2021-07-22 at 05:49 PM.

  11. #691
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    2) A character who commits genocide, torture, and more shouldn't get a free pass
    I don't think anyone is talking "free pass" - unless that is code for "anything that isn't outright execution", which makes very little sense.

    Just as little sense as the whole "genocide" accusation. She destroyed one island, with one big city on it, and during wartime no less. How does that rise to the level of "genocide" all of a sudden?

    But in any event, redemption arcs are a dime a dozen in fiction. There's nothing special about Sylvanas in that respect.

  12. #692
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Just as little sense as the whole "genocide" accusation. She destroyed one island, with one big city on it, and during wartime no less. How does that rise to the level of "genocide" all of a sudden?
    "During wartime no less"... you do realize that she's the one who started this war, right? And then we learned that she did that to doom numerous souls to hell in the afterlife, just to give her new master (whom she totally doesn't serve) more power.

  13. #693
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Just as little sense as the whole "genocide" accusation. She destroyed one island, with one big city on it, and during wartime no less. How does that rise to the level of "genocide" all of a sudden?
    Garrosh destroyed one island, with one big city on it and during wartime no less.
    Sylvanas destroyed one island, with one big city on it and during wartime no less.

    The difference is that the former gave the civilians time to clear the area before doing so.
    There's a clear distinction between killing hundreds of armed forces and killing hundreds of armed forces, but then celebrating it by burning thousands of civilians alive.

  14. #694
    Warchief Progenitor Aquarius's Avatar
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    Alright, she said: “You cannot let him reach the”. As she pronounced “the” there should be a Vowel next word. Sepulcher has a consonant at the beginning. So either it is Azeroth or Ulduar.

  15. #695
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    Alright, she said: “You cannot let him reach the”. As she pronounced “the” there should be a Vowel next word. Sepulcher has a consonant at the beginning. So either it is Azeroth or Ulduar.
    The Sepulcher of the First Ones.

  16. #696
    Warchief Progenitor Aquarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    The Sepulcher of the First Ones.
    In that case the pronunciation would be the way she did? I really hope you are right.

  17. #697
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    I don't think anyone is talking "free pass" - unless that is code for "anything that isn't outright execution", which makes very little sense.

    Just as little sense as the whole "genocide" accusation. She destroyed one island, with one big city on it, and during wartime no less. How does that rise to the level of "genocide" all of a sudden?

    But in any event, redemption arcs are a dime a dozen in fiction. There's nothing special about Sylvanas in that respect.
    Teldrassil was not one city. As Tyrande Teldrassil noted, this is an entire state. And Blizzard tweeted that Teldrassil is much more in lore than in the game.

  18. #698
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    In that case the pronunciation would be the way she did? I really hope you are right.
    The Sepulcher of the First Ones, or the Sepulcher for short, is a mysterious location containing the secrets of the First Ones. Its location is hidden and a closely guarded secret. The attendants of Korthia are forbidden from discussing it, even with allies.

    The Primus believed that once the Jailer collects the five sigils of the Eternal Ones, he will be able to reach the Sepulcher, something the Primus thinks would be catastrophic. He hid his own sigil in the Vault of Secrets on Korthia and bound it with magic in order to prevent this.

    The Primus was eventually proven right, when the Jailer eventually managed to collect all five sigils and opened a portal to the Sepulcher from Oribos. Sylvanas Windrunner was then captured by the Ebon Blade for further interrogation on the Jailer's plans.

    The brokers of Cartel Ba and Cartel Al have also been looking for the Sepulcher. The broker Al'firim draws a distinction between this sepulcher and the Sepulcher of Knowledge in Maldraxxus.

  19. #699
    Quote Originally Posted by Zmagoslav View Post
    Garrosh destroyed one island, with one big city on it and during wartime no less.
    Sylvanas destroyed one island, with one big city on it and during wartime no less.

    The difference is that the former gave the civilians time to clear the area before doing so.
    There's a clear distinction between killing hundreds of armed forces and killing hundreds of armed forces, but then celebrating it by burning thousands of civilians alive.
    No one is saying those two are the same, or that what Sylvanas did wasn't atrocious.

    But it wasn't genocide. That word has a distinct meaning, and it's not simply some kind of superlative for war crimes.

  20. #700
    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    2) Vegeta, Majin Bu, Prince Zuko, Tony Stark, Frank castle, Ghost Rider, Thanos(comicbook version after snap), Doctor Doom, Luke Skywalker and many many others.

    If it's a good well written story audiences can be tremendously forgiving and even cheer to the deaths of milions of nameless grunts, who happened to oppose the protagonist of the piece. In grand pop-culture scheme of things what Sylvanas did is actually comparably pretty tame.
    The difference is in your examples most of the atrocities happened off screen to areas/peoples we had no connection with or were later reversed.

    What they did in WoW was decimate the Alliance's second most popular race and raze a starting zone many of us had emotional attachments to, in fact, our first introduction to the world of Warcraft itself. I'm struggling to think of a villain who permanently destroyed something dear to me that I eventually came around to forgiving, especially as night elf fans have been given no catharsis with Sylvanas. She has, up to this point, gotten away with everything with no consequences, a clear conscience, and no "greater good" purpose to justify anything she's done.

    I don't have confidence in the current writing team turning this around either, especially as they've already set the stage to waive everything she's done with the (weak) excuse that her soul was split.
    "We must now recognize that the greatest threat of freedom for us all is if we go back to eating ourselves out from within." - John Anderson

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