[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Huehuecoyotl]

Nothing that can't be fixed by the UK using article 16 of the EU agreed Northern Ireland protocol and making that unilateral declaration. So indeed we do hold all the cards. Easy peasy lemon squeezy...

Oh and the EU signed up to article 16, didn't they realise what they were signing up to?

You make it sound like that's some kind of get out of jail card. It's just a roundabout way saying that the UK will unilaterally break the agreement with the EU, and in doing so break the GFA. We've already established that you're a sociopath that doesn't care what that means for anyone that isn't you. But those of us that still have empathy regard the return to the Troubles as being a bad thing.

And if it's that easy, why haven't the Tories done it yet? For that matter, why bother signing up to the agreement in the first place?

My instincts say that this is just a desparate bluff, that the EU will never fall for. The problem is, it's Boris. And he's stupid enough to do something catastrophic either because he's too lazy to work to find a better way, or he's been so insulated from responsibility his whole life that he simply doesn't understand the concept of consequences.

So we'll see. But your "simple" solution is far from that.

[dribbles]

You make it sound like that's some kind of get out of jail card. It's just a roundabout way saying that the UK will unilaterally break the agreement with the EU, and in doing so break the GFA. We've already established that you're a sociopath that doesn't care what that means for anyone that isn't you. But those of us that still have empathy regard the return to the Troubles as being a bad thing.

And if it's that easy, why haven't the Tories done it yet? For that matter, why bother signing up to the agreement in the first place?

My instincts say that this is just a desparate bluff, that the EU will never fall for. The problem is, it's Boris. And he's stupid enough to do something catastrophic either because he's too lazy to work to find a better way, or he's been so insulated from responsibility his whole life that he simply doesn't understand the concept of consequences.

So we'll see. But your "simple" solution is far from that.

The UK are not breaking any agreement.

They are implementing an EU agreed and ratified procedure, namely Article 16, to solve a problem easily. Compliance with this EU mechanism will show the world how trustworthy and reliable the UK is in any future deals with other third nations and that we play by the rules.

If the EU don't like Article 16 they should not of signed up to it, although they did try to make good use of it earlier in the year with their vaccine shambles. No point moaning about an agreement that they very much helped draw up when the UK uses it to its advantage now is there?

[Huehuecoyotl]

The UK are not breaking any agreement.

They are implementing an EU agreed and ratified procedure, namely Article 16, to solve a problem easily. Compliance with this EU mechanism will show the world how trustworthy and reliable the UK is in any future deals with other third nations and that we play by the rules.

If the EU don't like Article 16 they should not of signed up to it, although they did try to make good use of it earlier in the year with their vaccine shambles. No point moaning about an agreement that they very much helped draw up when the UK uses it to its advantage now is there?

Article 16 isn't relevant. Of course you can break an agreement you've just signed. Details like that exist for precisely that reason. The important thing is that in doing so the UK will break the GFA. Because there has to be a border either in the Irish Sea, or in Ireland itself. If you've decided you don't want one in the Irish Sea, you're selecting one in Ireland instead.

None of this is complicated, although it is several levels above anything Brexiteers can be expected to follow. You were warned about it in 2016, and subsequently. You were warned what it would mean when the agreement was signed with the EU, but Boris did what Boris does and simply lied about it. Border in the Irish Sea, or border in Ireland. There is no option C. If you use Article 16 to break this agreement, you will be breaking the GFA at the same time. No argument, no debate, this is simply a statement of fact.

And if that were to happen, the UK would be facing sanctions from the EU, and almost certainly from the US as well. Biden has made his position on Ireland crystal clear. But sure, let's fuck up relations with the two largest trading blocks in the world. I'm sure a few juicy deals with the Caymen Islands will make up for that in no time.

We're bluffing when we have zero cards in our hands and the EU have 8 Aces. Or to use a different analogy, we're betting that we can win Russian Roulette with a fully loaded gun. There are two outcomes from this; we back down and look weak and stupid. Or we go ahead and do it and look stupid and untrustworthy. Either way Boris fucks this country up just a little bit more.

Brexit; the gift that just keeps on giving.

[unfilteredJW]

Brexit; the gift that just keeps on giving.

More like a turd that just won’t flush.

[dribbles]

Article 16 isn't relevant. Of course you can break an agreement you've just signed. Details like that exist for precisely that reason. The important thing is that in doing so the UK will break the GFA. Because there has to be a border either in the Irish Sea, or in Ireland itself. If you've decided you don't want one in the Irish Sea, you're selecting one in Ireland instead.

None of this is complicated, although it is several levels above anything Brexiteers can be expected to follow. You were warned about it in 2016, and subsequently. You were warned what it would mean when the agreement was signed with the EU, but Boris did what Boris does and simply lied about it. Border in the Irish Sea, or border in Ireland. There is no option C. If you use Article 16 to break this agreement, you will be breaking the GFA at the same time. No argument, no debate, this is simply a statement of fact.

And if that were to happen, the UK would be facing sanctions from the EU, and almost certainly from the US as well. Biden has made his position on Ireland crystal clear. But sure, let's fuck up relations with the two largest trading blocks in the world. I'm sure a few juicy deals with the Caymen Islands will make up for that in no time.

We're bluffing when we have zero cards in our hands and the EU have 8 Aces. Or to use a different analogy, we're betting that we can win Russian Roulette with a fully loaded gun. There are two outcomes from this; we back down and look weak and stupid. Or we go ahead and do it and look stupid and untrustworthy. Either way Boris fucks this country up just a little bit more.

Brexit; the gift that just keeps on giving.

Not the UK government position as it serves its command paper on the EU in complete compliance with their agreed NIP. In fact Article 16, and I refer you to page 13 points 28 and 29 of the following, is very much relevant.

It is nevertheless clear that the circumstances exist to justify using Article 16

https://assets.publishing.service.go...NT__1___2_.pdf

As you can see we hold all the cards and the EU should think themselves lucky the UK is only seeking modifications to the NIP and not ripping up the WA as well. If I had my way we would do exactly that and the cherished no deal clean Brexit would be delivered beautifully in full.

That's where we are heading and it's a wonderful thing to look forward to. You should be rejoicing with me, as the rest of the UK is, in that thought.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Not the UK government position as it serves its command paper on the EU in complete compliance with their agreed NIP. In fact Article 16, and I refer you to page 13 points 28 and 29 of the following, is very much relevant.

It is nevertheless clear that the circumstances exist to justify using Article 16

https://assets.publishing.service.go...NT__1___2_.pdf

As you can see we hold all the cards and the EU should think themselves lucky the UK is only seeking modifications to the NIP and not ripping up the WA as well. If I had my way we would do exactly that and the cherished no deal clean Brexit would be delivered beautifully in full.

That's where we are heading and it's a wonderful thing to look forward to. You should be rejoicing with me, as the rest of the UK is, in that thought.

For the last time (and I'll say this slowly, since you appear to be having trouble with it):

The mechanism for leaving the agreement with the EU is irrelevant. The only important thing is that doing so means you are creating a hard border between NI and Ireland, breaking the GFA.

You have a border in the Irish Sea, or you have a border in Ireland. THERE IS NO OPTION C. This is what the stupidity of Brexit has brought us to. You were warned, you didn't listen.

And I find it utterly hilarious that these moronic chancers are basically saying to the EU "we'll break our agreement if you don't do what we say. And what we want is for you to basically trust us that we won't misuse this back-door into the EU once we get rid of the Irish Sea border and EU oversight". Generally speaking, showing that you are completely untrustworthy while asking someone to trust you is a bit of a red flag.

Which gives me a great idea; I think that once NI and Scotland leave the UK, we should change the flag so it's just a giant red one. Which then tells the world everything they need to know about doing business with England.

[Fuiking]

For the last time (and I'll say this slowly, since you appear to be having trouble with it):

The mechanism for leaving the agreement with the EU is irrelevant. The only important thing is that doing so means you are creating a hard border between NI and Ireland, breaking the GFA.

You have a border in the Irish Sea, or you have a border in Ireland. THERE IS NO OPTION C. This is what the stupidity of Brexit has brought us to. You were warned, you didn't listen.

And I find it utterly hilarious that these moronic chancers are basically saying to the EU "we'll break our agreement if you don't do what we say. And what we want is for you to basically trust us that we won't misuse this back-door into the EU once we get rid of the Irish Sea border and EU oversight". Generally speaking, showing that you are completely untrustworthy while asking someone to trust you is a bit of a red flag.

Which gives me a great idea; I think that once NI and Scotland leave the UK, we should change the flag so it's just a giant red one. Which then tells the world everything they need to know about doing business with England.

I think what you write for Dribbles is a lost cause.. he wont listen nor accept his mistakes.

[caervek]

The mechanism for leaving the agreement with the EU is irrelevant. The only important thing is that doing so means you are creating a hard border between NI and Ireland

Not a Brexshit fan but that's not actually true, in fact neither the UK or RoI can even put up a hard border without an active military threat as doing so would violate the CTA, so neither will do it. Pretty much the only way it happens is if the EU send personnel over to build/man a border and I'm pretty certain that isn't going to happen.

This is the paradoxical element of the whole mess, the UK and the EU (or rather scumbag politicians from the UK and EU) signed an agreement to do something both knew at the time could not be done, they just wanted to kick the can down the road, idiots.

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You have a border in the Irish Sea, or you have a border in Ireland.

Neither of those are a viable option.

Now you can (and should) blame the UK politicians who signed up to the withdrawal agreement for this mess knowing full well it was unviable, but in fairness it was also signed by EU politicians who also knew they were signing something unworkable so there is definitely blame on both sides, it's like everybody saw the problem but just hoped if they could delay it they wouldn't be around by the time it went off.

IMO both sides should just get around the table and hammer out a revised version of the withdrawal agreement, and this time one that is actually workable, neither side will like it but that's really the only option to fix the mess.

[Gorsameth]

Not a Brexshit fan but that's not actually true, in fact neither the UK or RoI can even put up a hard border without an active military threat as doing so would violate the CTA, so neither will do it. Pretty much the only way it happens is if the EU send personnel over to build/man a border and I'm pretty certain that isn't going to happen.

This is the paradoxical element of the whole mess, the UK and the EU (or rather scumbag politicians from the UK and EU) signed an agreement to do something both knew at the time could not be done, they just wanted to kick the can down the road, idiots.

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Neither of those are a viable option.

Now you can (and should) blame the UK politicians who signed up to the withdrawal agreement for this mess knowing full well it was unviable, but in fairness it was also signed by EU politicians who also knew they were signing something unworkable so there is definitely blame on both sides, it's like everybody saw the problem but just hoped if they could delay it they wouldn't be around by the time it went off.

IMO both sides should just get around the table and hammer out a revised version of the withdrawal agreement, and this time one that is actually workable, neither side will like it but that's really the only option to fix the mess.

Why is an Irish Sea Border unworkable? Is it disruptive for NI? yeah, but that is something for the UK to worry about, not the EU.

From an EU perspective a border in the Irish Sea is fine so long as the UK follows through on their obligations.

If the UK didn't want an Irish Sea border that is on the UK for offering that solution. Not on the EU.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Neither of those are a viable option.

Now you can (and should) blame the UK politicians who signed up to the withdrawal agreement for this mess knowing full well it was unviable, but in fairness it was also signed by EU politicians who also knew they were signing something unworkable so there is definitely blame on both sides, it's like everybody saw the problem but just hoped if they could delay it they wouldn't be around by the time it went off.

IMO both sides should just get around the table and hammer out a revised version of the withdrawal agreement, and this time one that is actually workable, neither side will like it but that's really the only option to fix the mess.

It isn't "unworkable" as far as the EU are concerned. They made it clear that customs processes would be required, then those custom processes need to be facilitated by the appropriate bodies. They offered to man those facilities in NI to help expedite the process; the UK turned them down.

So the UK signed up to something without understanding it properly. Then actively took step to prevent it working properly. Then complained when the inevitable happened.

Nobody needs to hammer out a revised version of the withdrawal agreement, because it's already been done. It took years, in case you've forgotten. The fact that the UK were incapable of negotiating properly, and having negotiated poorly were then incapable of implementing properly, is not a problem of the EUs. So no, that isn't the "only option to fix the mess". The sensible option would be for the UK to sort out the customs processes that need to exist between the UK mainland and NI. And if necessary provide financial assistance to the firms impacted by those processes to ensure that they can continue as they were. We've supposedly got £350m a week floating around looking for a home, so we can use some of that.

Don't forget; NI didn't vote for this shit. So they shouldn't be shouldering the insane decision making of (primarily) England.

[Combatbutler]

Neither of those are a viable option.

The one who has to solve that problem is the one who caused it, so the UK. This entire debacle is 100% the UK's fault.

The UK fundamentally does not deserve a renegotiation, they burned any goodwill, which could justify it.

[Temp name]

Not a Brexshit fan but that's not actually true, in fact neither the UK or RoI can even put up a hard border without an active military threat as doing so would violate the CTA, so neither will do it. Pretty much the only way it happens is if the EU send personnel over to build/man a border and I'm pretty certain that isn't going to happen.

This is the paradoxical element of the whole mess, the UK and the EU (or rather scumbag politicians from the UK and EU) signed an agreement to do something both knew at the time could not be done, they just wanted to kick the can down the road, idiots.

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Neither of those are a viable option.

Now you can (and should) blame the UK politicians who signed up to the withdrawal agreement for this mess knowing full well it was unviable, but in fairness it was also signed by EU politicians who also knew they were signing something unworkable so there is definitely blame on both sides, it's like everybody saw the problem but just hoped if they could delay it they wouldn't be around by the time it went off.

IMO both sides should just get around the table and hammer out a revised version of the withdrawal agreement, and this time one that is actually workable, neither side will like it but that's really the only option to fix the mess.

Why are you blaming the EU?
The EU believed, in good faith, that what the UK offered was possible. And then the UK was like "Oh, you should've known what we offered was an impossibility, this is your fault!"

[dribbles]

It could work right now if the EU were being reasonable as the NIP they agreed to requires and demands. But they seem to think Marks and Spencer are a threat to the EU's existence and we have the ridiculous situation whereby goods to Ireland from the UK are being rejected because a line or two on a form is written in Blue ink rather than Black. It smacks of the stupidity of the bent banana scenario all over again.

EU chaos as 'entire' M&S shipments turned away and destroyed because of 'wrong ink colour'

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...Union-trade-vn

Well two sides can be petty and whilst the UK up until now has been fair minded and yet holding all the EU agreement Article 16 cards, it will not put up with it for much longer.

All Lord Frost is doing is warning the EU that they must honour the agreement they signed, that dumb actions have consequences and that they need to behave in an adult, sensible and reasonable way, or Article 16 will be the answer. Then the EU will have no option but to break the GFA and put up a border in Ireland.

That scenario will not be the fault of the UK and should be plain to see for all.

[Twdft]

UK: we want out of EU and be a third country
EU treats UK like a third country
UK: nah not like that why U no trust US?

[Gorsameth]

It could work right now if the EU were being reasonable as the NIP they agreed to requires and demands. But they seem to think Marks and Spencer are a threat to the EU's existence and we have the ridiculous situation whereby goods to Ireland from the UK are being rejected because a line or two on a form is written in Blue ink rather than Black. It smacks of the stupidity of the bent banana scenario all over again.

EU chaos as 'entire' M&S shipments turned away and destroyed because of 'wrong ink colour'

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...Union-trade-vn

Well two sides can be petty and whilst the UK up until now has been fair minded and yet holding all the EU agreement Article 16 cards, it will not put up with it for much longer.

All Lord Frost is doing is warning the EU that they must honour the agreement they signed, that dumb actions have consequences and that they need to behave in an adult, sensible and reasonable way, or Article 16 will be the answer. Then the EU will have no option but to break the GFA and put up a border in Ireland.

That scenario will not be the fault of the UK and should be plain to see for all.

Funny how it never talks about how the rules in the WA are different from those faced by other countries. Probably because they aren't and the UK now has to follow all the same rules as every other country dealing with the EU. Which is what the UK wants.
And yes I understand it concerns products that stay within the UK, that's the consequence of putting the EU border in the Irish Sea instead of Between NI and Ireland (lol). The UK knew this would be the result when they drew up the WA. This is how Boris circumvented the 'backstop' that May got stuck on. And when everyone here told you this was going to happen you chose to ignore it and listen to Boris lying when he said 'nah, not going to happen'.
Well here we are.

As for failure because of text colour. Firstly following the rules and use the correct colour should not be hard. Secondly, a different coloured page may indicate the document has been tampered with and therefor I don't see an issue with refusing such a document based on that.

If I want to import Brazilian banana's and have 1 blue page amidst the black in the paperwork, does it get declined? I'm included to believe it would.

[Thrundi]

As for failure because of text colour. Firstly following the rules and use the correct colour should not be hard. Secondly, a different coloured page may indicate the document has been tampered with and therefor I don't see an issue with refusing such a document based on that.

If I want to import Brazilian banana's and have 1 blue page amidst the black in the paperwork, does it get declined? I'm included to believe it would.

Regarding this ink color

=> these are the words of a M&S chairman, aka someone who doesn't know shit about QA and regulations, and doesn't care about it. Most probably. It's a frustrating and boring topic and frankly, I seldom encountered somebody outside QA departments who cared. For all we know, they may have only encountered temporary issues caused by ink color (or decided to destroy cargo rather than deal with the issue) while the rest was caused by more legitimate issues.

=> there are millions of such annoying rules. They're there because humans cannot behave properly, so rules have been created to protect buyers & sellers. Everybody in the business knows it's part of the game, unfortunately, so if the UK is to profit off their million of new juicy trade deals, they better get up to speed.

=> actually, the UK knows full well that there are such annoying rules, considering how they love to enforce them. As someone whose job is to deal with QA and regulations in trading foods worldwide, our UK customers are the worst. Including M&S, ironically. I really doubt they genuinely did everything by the book but went surprisedpikachu when turned down. Or they are really the dumbest, considering how they nitpick at everything and anything all the time.

[Huehuecoyotl]

It could work right now if the EU were being reasonable as the NIP they agreed to requires and demands. But they seem to think Marks and Spencer are a threat to the EU's existence and we have the ridiculous situation whereby goods to Ireland from the UK are being rejected because a line or two on a form is written in Blue ink rather than Black. It smacks of the stupidity of the bent banana scenario all over again.

EU chaos as 'entire' M&S shipments turned away and destroyed because of 'wrong ink colour'

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...Union-trade-vn

Well two sides can be petty and whilst the UK up until now has been fair minded and yet holding all the EU agreement Article 16 cards, it will not put up with it for much longer.

All Lord Frost is doing is warning the EU that they must honour the agreement they signed, that dumb actions have consequences and that they need to behave in an adult, sensible and reasonable way, or Article 16 will be the answer. Then the EU will have no option but to break the GFA and put up a border in Ireland.

That scenario will not be the fault of the UK and should be plain to see for all.

Is the UK mainland now performing checks on EU goods coming in? Yes they are, because apparently Brexit was all about "taking back control of our borders". But in the world of dribbles, this type of thing should only be available to one side in this negotiation. We can do what we like to EU goods coming into our borders, but apparently the EU isn't allowed to do the same to us.

It's that fucking ridiculous.

And yes, having a border that breaks NI from the rest of the UK is clearly not perfect. But that was the only option available that didn't break the GFA once the UK had said that it absolutely had to be able to diverge from EU standards.

So basically the entire thing is the fault of the UK, at every stage:

1. Triggers Brexit (UK)
2. Demands right to diverge from EU standards (UK)
3. Signs agreement to having a border in the Irish Sea (UK)
4. Refuses EU assistance in maintaining the function of that border (UK)

Blaming the EU for any of this is laughable. But we know that the rules of reality don't impinge on dribbles world.

[caervek]

Why are you blaming the EU?

I'm not, I'm blaming the negotiators on both sides but mostly on the UK side, hence the statement:

Now you can (and should) blame the UK politicians who signed up to the withdrawal agreement for this mess knowing full well it was unviable

The EU believed, in good faith, that what the UK offered was possible

No, that is not true, the were multiple negotiators from the EU involved and it's simply not possible they were all retarded. They knew full well what was being agreed wasn't possible, they agreed to it anyway because they knew it wouldn't be their problem when it didn't work.


The big problem at the moment, is that everyone on the EU side seems entirely focused on blaming the UK politicians for their part in creating this unworkable mess, while ignoring their own role in creating it. This won't be resolved until both sides stop flinging poo at each other and sit down to negotiate a new/revised agreement that it's actually possible to implement.

[Forogil]

The big problem at the moment, is that everyone on the EU side seems entirely focused on blaming the UK politicians for their part in creating this unworkable mess, while ignoring their own role in creating it. This won't be resolved until both sides stop flinging poo at each other and sit down to negotiate a new/revised agreement that it's actually possible to implement.

The only realistic possibilities for change are:

• Norther Ireland (well, north-eastern corner) leaving the uk (well, england)
• uk joining the single market (similarly as Norway etc) - either permanently or temporarily (i.e. the backstop once more)

[caervek]

That scenario will not be the fault of the UK and should be plain to see for all.

This entire debacle is 100% the UK's fault.

This pretty much sums up the whole debacle right now, everyone (especially politicians) seems obsessed with blaming the other side for the mess while absolving their own side of blame, when in reality both sides are to blame and the mess can only be fixed by the sides coming together to find a viable solution

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[*] uk joining the single market (similarly as Norway etc) - either permanently or temporarily (i.e. the backstop once more)[/list]

During the Brexit campaign our current PM said that leaving the EU didn't mean leaving the single market, as that would be foolish. Kinda shows how trustworthy he is xD