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  1. #1

    some thoughts about shaman coming from classic back to retail

    notice
    my intent is not to create a classic vs retail flame war. i'm not saying classic is superior, no, i still play retail because there are a lot of things i do like. i enjoy both. i'm just posting my opinion about current state of shaman
    so i've been playing classic for awhile now and came back to retail again. but i can't help but feel empty compared to my classic / tbc shaman. of all the changes the one thing that bugs me the most is the lack of totems. i miss the totems because they were really the epitome of shaman. i miss being unique, useful, and providing so much utility to not only my self, but my group. of all the gutting they have done, the purging of totems sucks. anyone else feel the same way?

  2. #2
    Nah it's not engaging in the least to be a totem bot.

  3. #3
    I feel the same as OP. As an enhancement sham I havent even a fire totem. I like to be surrounded by totems.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Caerrona View Post
    Nah it's not engaging in the least to be a totem bot.
    Might not be engaging gameplay, but it's engaging dynamics. It's not engaging at all to restore mana through your damage, it's not engaging to be there to put up improved faerie fire, it's not engaging to stack 5 sunders, it's not engaging to increase everyone's damage by scoring a crit hit based on your agility..

    Like what even is engaging in this game, right?

  5. #5
    I am playing enhancement on classic and I really miss the old windfury effect when playing on retail along with the totems

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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Raghnar View Post
    I feel the same as OP. As an enhancement sham I havent even a fire totem. I like to be surrounded by totems.
    isn't there a glyph for that if you purely care about the cosmetics?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Totems are best being impactful. Old totems weren't.
    That's just false, Classic / TBC totems were extremely powerful and essentially the bargaining chip for a shaman to get a raidspot.
    Shaman were a support class and Totems were their way to support the group.

    Issue is that with Wotlk and their "Bring the player, not the class" philosophy, Totems no longer provided anything unique and were often mechanically inferior to buffs brought by other classes.
    Manaspring was inferior to Blessing of Wisdom
    Strength of Earth was inferior to Horn of Winter

    Blizzard diminished a crucial aspect of totems and never bothered to replace it with anything, then Shaman was stuck in this odd position of "Totems aren't exactly useful anymore" and "But they're still a core mechanic!" for years until they removed most buff totems one by one.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Totems are best being impactful. Old totems weren't.
    Windfury Totem wasn't impactful? Really? That said, many weren't. For those that were, many are gone. Or those that survive, most aren't what they once were - Healing Tide Totem used to be a really big deal, but now it takes building everything around it to make it more than a Healing Trickle Totem. Spirit Link is about the only remaing totem with impact. For DPS totems - forget it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    That's just false, Classic / TBC totems were extremely powerful and essentially the bargaining chip for a shaman to get a raidspot.
    Shaman were a support class and Totems were their way to support the group.
    I remember when Cleansing Totem was removed in the Cata pre-patch and suddenly doing Yogg-Saron in full ICC gear became challenging again, because there were SO MANY debuffs, and without that totem and with Cleanses now being on a CD they were a problem. I miss that totem (and Tremor being placeable while feared, and Windfury Totem, and HTT that didn't suck, and...).

    Hell, these days I even miss the totem talent. Sure it was basically passive, but at least I got to plonk down my totems and get buffs from them.

  9. #9
    Good utility totems are interesting. Stun totem, tremor, spirit link.

    Buff totems suck dick. Wasting 4 GCDs every time you move 2 meters fucking sucks. Even when it only was 1 GCD in wrath or with the new useless totems in Legion and BFA it still sucked. Buff totems are just buffs with extra steps.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Buff totems are just buffs. They're essential and mandatory but they don't satisfy a feeling of answering a problem.
    I mean, that's most support elements in a nutshell for you, especially in the Classic / TBC era.

    As said, that was the role of Shaman, its emphasis did lie on the support aspect, if you didn't like that, that's fine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    "A totem for every occasion" doesn't work as well when you just constantly have four totems out passively buffing the raid and no other totems coming out doing anything else. That would be boring.
    I think you are taking a very plain read on the subject, i think most people wouldn't claim it's peak gameplay to place four totems, but rather the fantasy of totems empowering you and your raid with powerful buffs rather than just minor buffs via some optional talent (Totem Mastery).

    The old Fire Totems are in my opinion an example of something that had potential but was frankly never picked up by Blizzard.
    You had Searing, Fire Nova and Magma Totem.

    Searing Totem, at least for Elemental, never moved past anything than a passive damage effects, never was there any talent / tier set tied to it.
    Fire Nova was axed in late Wotlk (or Cata, depending how you look at it) and Magma Totem in similiar fashion became just a passive damage tickle for Enhance.

    The only attempt at ever doing something with fire Totems was Liquid Magma Totem, that's it.

    I think the concept of having totems that empower you and your party wasn't completely unsalvageable, however
    (1) I think Blizzard was not willing to put in the effort, as Totems have some inherit issues that would need to make up for => Balance issues
    (2) The "buffing your party" aspect was due to their "Bring the player, not the class" philosophy outright unwanted

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Raghnar View Post
    I feel the same as OP. As an enhancement sham I havent even a fire totem. I like to be surrounded by totems.
    yeah its super sad. even the character creation screen still shows the fire totem.... i just finally got around to unlocking mag'har race and seeing the new mag'har fire totem made me sad.

    sure there is skyfury totem but its a pvp talent of all things. and no one recommends it in any of the pvp guides i've seen. maybe in a few situtations in rated backgrounds is worth taking but there seems to be to many other ones that's more beneficial. looking at it i feel like it should just be a baseline totem that goes with windfury. bring another cool buff to benefit the group. i was sad when i realized grounding totem got moved to a pvp talent too. in classic i use grounding totem a lot just out in the pve world.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saiteck View Post
    I am playing enhancement on classic and I really miss the old windfury effect when playing on retail along with the totems
    yeah i miss it too because its far more noticeable. the new animation is more subtle. i have to check my logs most of the time to see if it went off.

    to add some things that i do like with new shamans is the dps abilities. rotation is more engaging, more fun, and i like all the new animations. love crash lightning. all shamans need is just more totems. class that's about totems and shamans are so anemic when it comes to them.
    Last edited by orlfman; 2021-07-25 at 05:24 AM.

  12. #12
    In Retail I still prefer the Resto Shaman to all other healers but I don't want all the strange buttons they have added like I don't want instant heals. I don't want AoE Healing Rain. I don't want all these buttons. I want to be unique with my chain heal and my totems, and maybe don't give every single class Heroism also...

    I think Enhancement Shaman in Retail has Windfury totem but I am not sure maybe it got removed or it sucks.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    I think Enhancement Shaman in Retail has Windfury totem but I am not sure maybe it got removed or it sucks.
    It sucks now.

    It's the same basically, it grants extrta auto attacks but auto attacks and 'white damage' isn't an important part of the game anymore like it was in Classic/TBC
    Me not that kind of Orc!

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    Buff totems suck dick. Wasting 4 GCDs every time you move 2 meters fucking sucks. Even when it only was 1 GCD in wrath
    This is my basic reaction too. Moving to the next pull? Put down four totems again. Had to use a utility totem? Better put that buff totem back out. Ugh. I'm glad that's not a thing anymore.
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  15. #15
    Totems as static buffs were scrapped for a reason. Majority didn't like them.

    There was some charm in being surrounded by your totem farm with all the pretty colours flying around you, but as far as gameplay goes, they were dull and clunky, and it's good their got axed and changed into cooldowns.

    And searing/magma totems and fire nova were the most awkward mechanics this game has ever known. Yikes, it was SO bad.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by orlfman View Post
    so i've been playing classic for awhile now and came back to retail again. but i can't help but feel empty compared to my classic / tbc shaman. of all the changes the one thing that bugs me the most is the lack of totems. i miss the totems because they were really the epitome of shaman. i miss being unique, useful, and providing so much utility to not only my self, but my group. of all the gutting they have done, the purging of totems sucks. anyone else feel the same way?
    Quote Originally Posted by Caerrona View Post
    Nah it's not engaging in the least to be a totem bot.

    But it could be, if they figured out a way to make it engaging.

    To me, in classic, the engaging part of totems was never PvE, but PvP. Actively reacting to what was going on around you with the right Totem to counter things. Sadly, this doesn't translate into PvE much (as the buff totems took precedence) and for retail PVP they have kept some of that gameplay, although not much.

    I'd like to see enhance combine the current ideology with totems to bring back a more group-focused aesthetic, but I don't ever see it happening.

    However, some things that could be done:

    - Open Earthen Wall Totem to Enhancement and Elemental

    - Bring Back Searing Totem as a reworked High DPS cooldown (similar to Rokhan's Warfront Totem) - High HP so it can't be gibbed, and big damage chunks for 5 seconds on a 1 min cooldown as an example

    - Bring Back Cleansing Totem as a High CD, non-spammable ability. Have Cleansing Totem be something akin to: 2 min cooldown, Place a Cleansing Totem down with X% hp, instantly dispelling one magic/curse ability from party members within 15 yards, pulsing every 5 seconds for 10 seconds.
    - that's 3 dispels if left up (on use, 5 sec, 10 sec) ---- isn't completely useless in pvp as it has an on-use effect, but isn't OP because it can be stomped and isn't cleansing every 2 seconds)

    - Design more totems like Static Field, where on-use/utility are the function as opposed to things like buff totems and make them usable in PvE.

    - Grounding Totem reverted to single spell off the GCD as a baseline spell, with the PvP talent transforming it into its current PvP version

    - Liquid Magma Totem baseline



    When playing Enhancement in Torghast, getting the ability that summons a 2nd random totem when you cast a totem is one of the most fun parts about Enhance. With the ability to spam Windfury, and the chance to get ANY TOTEM, it really does feel like you help group utility tremendously. Some iteration of this into the baseline class would be neat (though most likely overpowered).


    Edit:

    I would never expect blizzard to do something like this, but even using totems as a visual while you are in combat would be amazing. The way Worgen are forcibly transformed into Worgen when they enter content, have something for shaman that summons a totem visual each second they are in combat for 4 seconds, until all 4 are out. Keep them out until combat ends, and when you use an actual totem ability have it be LARGER to distinguish, and replace the visual totem.

    This would complicate things in pvp however, and is so graphically superficial that it would never happen.
    Last edited by wushootaki; 2022-01-21 at 05:08 PM.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Cracked View Post
    Might not be engaging gameplay, but it's engaging dynamics. It's not engaging at all to restore mana through your damage, it's not engaging to be there to put up improved faerie fire, it's not engaging to stack 5 sunders, it's not engaging to increase everyone's damage by scoring a crit hit based on your agility..

    Like what even is engaging in this game, right?

    This, soo much this!

  18. #18
    I think it was really engaging personally, it just needed a few updates. What I liked about it is you selected a few buffs that worked best for your group, but occasionally would have to drop one to react to a specific event. I'll give you two examples:

    Earth Totem - You're looking at what you're group needs, picking defensive Stoneskin or offensive Strength of Earth. Those you maintain. But you have a running mob... so you have to weave in an Earthbind, or a fear is about to drop so you Tremor. Then you refresh the buff. You also can constantly reasses what buff you need.

    Air Totem - The offensive spell totem or Windfury/Grace of Air. Then weaving in a grounding to absorb a big pyro.

    You have 2 other elemental totems and even have resists and stuff. You're basically monitoring all these things to see what the group needs at all times.

    It needs one major update though:

    You guys ever play Diablo 2? Remember the Druid's oak sage that would follow you around? Or even the floating tiki masks in WoW that you can get as a pet. I think if they made the buff totems follow you around like that it would solve the issue of having to recast them as you're trekking through a dungeon, since these are 2min+ totems and not in-the-moment ones.

    Personally I did like managing group buffs in both EQ and early WoW.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    Spirit Link is about the only remaing totem with impact. For DPS totems - forget it.
    Is it really? How is Cloudburst Totem not impactful for thoroughput? How about the utility of Wind Rush Totem? Or Earthbind/Earthgrab Totems being great for kiting/slowing things like Spiteful? How about Capacitor Totem's AoE stun, invaluable on big pulls? Is the free rezz from Ancestral Protection Totem not good enough? You sure you're playing that shaman properly...? Because I use totems all the time! They may be more situational now, but when they work, they do wonders. Even things like Tremor Totem are super helpful here and there. The difference is, many totems of the past were boring fire & forget (oh that amazing Searing Totem!), whereas now you actually have to think when to use them well.

  20. #20
    Yeah I remember how good was it
    The fight begins, I click 4 hotkeys to drop some buffs, and didn't even remember what those were.
    Good times, good design.

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