There should be more Evil vs Evil scenarios and moments in Warcraft

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

One of my biggest regrets with WOW and its expansions is the lack of real conflicts and rivalries between antagonistic forces such as the Burning Legion, the Scourge, the Old Gods and their forces (even between themselves since the Old Gods can't even stand each other and were in constant conflict for dominance over Azeroth during the days of the Black Empire), the evil versions of the Horde and other villainous forces such as the Mogu for example.

There were examples of it during Warcraft 2 with the internal conflicts inside the Old Horde (Gul'dan vs Doomhammer, the battle at the Tomb of Sargeras between the Stormreaver and Twilight Hammer clan against the Black Tooth Grin and Dragonmaw clans). Even more in Warcraft 3 and its expansion the Frozen Throne, with the Scourge leadership plotting against and betraying the Burning Legion, Arthas and the Scourge having to fight an abomination serving Yogg-Saron and faceless and his battles later against Illidan and his minions (even if Illidan and Kael'thas weren't true villains, at least not at the time for Kael'thas).

For example I find it a shame that we never saw any instance of Burning Legion forces fighting minions of the Old Gods, barring Deathwing's onslaught on everyone during the War of the Ancients, such as the Faceless or Aqir and their offshots, the Black dragonflight or the Naga nor of the Burning Legion having agents having infiltrated Old Gods' forces such as the Twilight Hammer and reciprocally.

Same for the Burning Legion not trying to punish the Lich King since Illidan's failure at destroying him in the Frozen Throne, or of demons trying to reclaim their control over the Scourge, even during Legion.

And it could have been really cool to see Lei Shen and his armies against the Mantid or Garrosh's Horde during Mists of Pandaria.

[Soon-TM]

Indeed. For example, one thing I'd have loved to see in an ostensibly Old God-themed expansion such as BfA would have been some hints of N'zoth having subtly helped us against the Legion. After all, the Legion was the ultimate anti-Void (and by extension, anti-Old God) organisation ever created, so even Tentacle Boi might have thought "the enemy of my enemy...". Sure, there was Knaifu, but 1) we don't know how exactly is she linked to the Old Gods, or if she actually is, for that matter, and 2) people who didn't roll Priest during Legion are still missing a lot of background.

[Skirdus]

One of the more underrated partnerships I'd want to see in the future is Light / Void working together against Fel / Death. The former two want to preserve life to their own ends, while the latter two want to destroy it. Fel and Death aren't necessarily opposites (and have even worked together in the past, as per the nathrezim's history with necromancy and Helya's deal with Legion), but a temporary Light / Void truce would be interesting if they could pull it off well; and I don't just mean two people using those respective powers, like Turalyon and Alleria. I mean a full-on naaru & void lord alliance against a greater threat to their goals

[Aleksej89]

that would require the writers to be at least on an elementary school level which danuser and his ilk are far below.

wow since BFA began is a prime example of how piles of money can be spent and you still end up with shite stories simply because you let really bad writers lead who are unfit for the task.
same as with the latest trilogy of star wars movies, billions of $ spent and yet the story is below a kindergarden play.

[Varodoc]

The community doesn't want them. See Mag'har vs. Lightbound, and how we see the story only from Geya'rah's perspective (unreliable narrator), but people ignore this and just believe whatever Geya'rah says at face value, reducing this conflict to a classic "Good Rebels" (Mag'har) vs. "Evil Empire" (Lightbound) war.

[Samuraijake]

game is dead no one cares anymore... ff14 time

[Super Dickmann]

This is a major point especially given how key it was to TFT where the final campaign consisted of nothing but scenarios where one semi-antagonistic group fought another (Arthas vs Dreadlords vs Sylvanas vs Illidan vs Garithos). WoW has played around with letting you play races and classes of a naff morality but the inevitable cascade into turning everyone into identical peaceniks has been joined by having them kill all their established villains leaving you little to work with. Even the most recent ones like Void and Death-aligned forces being opposed to each other went nowhere fast.

[Calfredd]

game is dead no one cares anymore... ff14 time

Weird how I was able to log in and raid yesterday then since the game was dead.

[GreenJesus]

The community doesn't want them. See Mag'har vs. Lightbound, and how we see the story only from Geya'rah's perspective (unreliable narrator), but people ignore this and just believe whatever Geya'rah says at face value, reducing this conflict to a classic "Good Rebels" (Mag'har) vs. "Evil Empire" (Lightbound) war.

Well usually forcing native peoples to convert to your religion or die is considered bad now a days. How else can you see the lightbound draenai? Aliens on a bloody crusade for their light God.

- - - Updated - - -

This is a major point especially given how key it was to TFT where the final campaign consisted of nothing but scenarios where one semi-antagonistic group fought another (Arthas vs Dreadlords vs Sylvanas vs Illidan vs Garithos). WoW has played around with letting you play races and classes of a naff morality but the inevitable cascade into turning everyone into identical peaceniks has been joined by having them kill all their established villains leaving you little to work with. Even the most recent ones like Void and Death-aligned forces being opposed to each other went nowhere fast.

WoW has defaulted to everyone being lawful good "we like Anduin" or else they become a raid boss that eats children and bans library books.

[Varodoc]

Well usually forcing native peoples to convert to your religion or die is considered bad now a days. How else can you see the lightbound draenai? Aliens on a bloody crusade for their light God.

If it was the orcs who went on a bloody crusade for their God, you'd be excusing them.

[Feanoro]

How else can you see the lightbound draenai?

The phrase "never again" comes to mind.

[GreenJesus]

If it was the orcs who went on a bloody crusade for their God, you'd be excusing them.

I'm not saying its bad or not needed, just i don't see how what they are doing changes based on perspective. They are still forcibly converting natives to their own religion. What would the Draenai perspective change besides "white savior complex" story?

[Magnagarde]

Warcraft 3 was on an another level when compared to the latest MMO storytelling. In order to tell a good and compelling story, you have to draw inspiration from good and compelling sources. Where the RTS lore(and adjacently all of the foundations for the initial MMO lore) was inspired by the writing of Tolkien and H.P.L. and I dare say parts of the Warhammer tabletop universe, the current writers are inspired by Marvel's profit-raking insults to fiction.

Friction between the forces of evil and all the other factions is exactly what the game needs. Even being an agent of said forces would allow players to experience something new that they haven't experienced since the RTS installments.

[Triceron]

Blackrock Spire lore was one of my favourite. Orcs and Dark Irons vying for control of the same territory, both with strong ties to the history of the place and both being backed by supernatural benefactors. It's literally Old God agents vs Old God agents; a far much better representation of Chaos than the Burning Legion itself.

Warcraft 3 still did it best with Arthas vs Illidan, both being former agents of the Legion.

[Varodoc]

I'm not saying its bad or not needed, just i don't see how what they are doing changes based on perspective. They are still forcibly converting natives to their own religion. What would the Draenai perspective change besides "white savior complex" story?

You do that by revealing that the Mag'har also did some shit that Geya'rah glossed over, like for example doing something with the planet (maybe using their machines/magic in an awful way) and causing the dessication of Draenor.

There, now you have an Evil vs. Evil conflict.

[GreenJesus]

You do that by revealing that the Mag'har also did some shit that Geya'rah glossed over, like for example doing something with the planet (maybe using their machines/magic in an awful way) and causing the dessication of Draenor.

There, now you have an Evil vs. Evil conflict.

That would have been cool, but I still don't see how stopping climate change requires converting the orcs to their religion.

[username993720]

Yes, definitely.

For example:

Arthas vs Old Gods

Anub'arak: Wait--the towers on either side are rigged to fire bolts of frost. This hallway is a deathtrap.
Arthas: Can't we disable them?
Anub'arak: The circular hatch in the far wall is an aqueduct plug. If we can open it, the water might flood the firing mechanisms and disable the entire trap.
Arthas: That's done it! Let's move.
Nerubian: Look, brothers! The traitor king!
Arthas: Who, me?
Anub'arak: He is referring to me, death knight. These nerubians will stop at nothing to destroy us!
Nerubian: Slay the intruders!
Nerubian: Death to the servants of Ner'zhul!
Nerubian: Drive the foul undead back to the surface!
Arthas: The guardians are activating! Defend yourselves!
Anub'arak: The eggs of our young are incubated within those breeding pods. There's no telling how many vicious hatchlings they hold.
Arthas: You were right--they're definitely hostile! We've got to destroy the breeding pods!
Anub'arak: We could also seal the doors to shut the hatchlings in!
Arthas: What the hell are they?
Anub'arak: They are the horrors the dwarves spoke of. I thought they were only legends.
Arthas: What?
Anub'arak: They are the faceless ones...
Anub'arak: It cannot be...
Anub'arak: A forgotten one. Look to your defenses, death knight! Fight as you've never fought before!


Arthas vs Illidan

Illidan Stormrage: I am free after ten thousand years, yet still my own brother thinks I am a villain! I'll show him my true power! I'll show him that the demons have no hold over me!
Arthas: Are you certain of that, demon hunter? Are you certain your will is your own?
Illidan Stormrage: You reek of death, human. You'll regret approaching me.
Arthas: Come then. You'll find that we're evenly matched.
Illidan and Arthas begin dueling, but neither is able to wound the other.
Illidan Stormrage: We could go on fighting like this forever. What is it you truly want?
Arthas: The dreadlord who commands this undead army is called Tichondrius. He controls a powerful warlock artifact called the Skull of Gul'dan.
Arthas: It is responsible for corrupting these forests.
Illidan Stormrage: And you wish for me to steal it. Why?
Arthas: Let's just say that I have no love for Tichondrius, and the lord I serve would... benefit from the Legion's downfall.
Illidan Stormrage: Why should I believe anything you say, little human?
Arthas: My master sees all, demon hunter. He knows that you've sought power your whole life. Now it lies within your grasp! Seize it, and your enemies will be undone.


Arthas vs the Legion

Kel'Thuzad's ghost appears in front of Arthas just as Tichondrius teleports in.
Tichondrius: Excellent work. Now, your journey to Quel'Thalas can begin.
Kel'Thuzad: Tell him nothing! Only you can hear me. The dreadlords cannot be trusted. They are the Lich King's jailors! I will tell you all... when I walk this world again.


Illidan vs Old Gods

A group of naga led by Lady Vashj emerged from the depths and pledged themselves to him. They did not come because of their shared history, nor did they respect his demonic power. They came because the Old Gods willed it. They noticed Illidan and his hunger for power. They sent the naga to aid Illidan in his campaign against the Lich King so that it could spark a new war. If the former night elf became troublesome, the Old Gods could simply command the naga to cut out his fel-corrupted heart.


Sylvanas vs Arthas

Banshee: This is the place, sisters. We'll rest here, great king.
Arthas: Why here? We've got to find Kel'Thuzad before we-- Aarrghh!
The Lich King: You have been deceived! Come to my side at once! Obey!
Arthas' minions die.
Arthas: What is... happening here?
Arthas is struck by an arrow.
Arthas: Sylvanas!
Sylvanas Windrunner: You walked right into this one, Arthas. It's time to even the scales.
Arthas: Traitor! What have you done to me?
Sylvanas Windrunner: It's a special poisoned arrow I made just for you. The paralysis you're experiencing now is but a fraction of the agony you've caused me.
Arthas: Finish me, then.
Sylvanas Windrunner: A quick death... like the one you gave me? No. You're going to suffer as I did. Thanks to my arrow, you can't even run.
Sylvanas Windrunner: Give my regards to hell, you son of a bitch.
Kel'Thuzad arrives with a group of skeletal magi.
Kel'Thuzad: Back, you mindless ones! You shall not fall today, my king.
Kel'Thuzad and his magi destroy Sylvanas' banshees, forcing Sylvanas to flee into the woods.
Sylvanas Windrunner: This isn't over, Arthas! I'll never stop hunting you!
Kel'Thuzad leads Arthas to the shore.
Kel'Thuzad: The effects of her arrow will wear off in time. All the preparations for your journey to Northrend have been made.
Arthas: You have been a loyal friend, Kel'Thuzad. I don't know what the future holds, or if I'll even return, but I want you to watch over this land. See to it that my legacy endures.
Kel'Thuzad: I shall, King Arthas. I shall


Forsaken vs Scourge


Deathwing vs Demons

He grabbed the Dragon Soul and by channeling his destructive power through it destroyed thousands of demons with one swing of radiant magic. The Dragon Aspects watched in horror as Neltharion also killed hundreds of night elves and other allies along with the demons.

Neltharion revealed the depths of his betrayal at last. Now with the disc at his command, he wanted all races and the demons to see his power and to bow to him.


When Blackhand fell to Orgrim, Deathwing did not see it as an issue. As a servant of the Old Gods, he saw the shattering of the Burning Legion's hold on the orcs as a good thing that only served to make them more vulnerable to his own masters.

Deathwing vs Gruul

the gronn did not take kindly to Deathwing and his black dragons trying to take over their territory and conflict arose between the two races.

Some time after Deathwing invaded his territory, Gruul was met by the lost heroes of the Second War: Khadgar, Turalyon, and Alleria Windrunner. They were after the Skull of Gul'dan which Deathwing possessed (he demanded it as payment from Ner'zhul). After that, Gruul and his ogre minions, along with the heroes, challenged Deathwing from his perch in Gorgrond — killing his eggs and impaling his lesser black drakes on the mountain spikes. Infuriated by this act, Deathwing landed on top of them and attacked Gruul. Although clearly no match for the mad Aspect's power, Gruul was saved by Khadgar's miraculous spell when he disassembled some of the adamantium plates that were holding Deathwing's unstable body together resulting in Deathwing's retreat.



Garrosh vs the Mogu

Theron sent a horde hero along with a farstrider and a blood knight to defeat the Mogu Warlord. Garrosh arrived during the battle and threw Gorehowl at the Mogu leader, almost killing him. Garrosh then demanded information about the Divine Bell but Shan Kien only mocked at him.



Orcs vs Ogres

11 years before the opening of the Dark Portal, the orcish Warsong clan engaged in a constant battle with the Highmaul ogres, their wolf riders using hit-and-run tactics to raid ogre settlements. The Warsongs eventually shattered Highmaul's hold on the region, seizing much of it for themselves and pushing the ogres back within the walls of their stronghold. The Warsong chieftain, Grommash Hellscream, became a legend among the clans. This was only the beginning of Highmaul's woes. The ogres had a long history of enslaving orcs and forcing them to fight each other in brutal arenas for entertainment. One slave named Kargath led an uprising within Highmaul, tearing off his own hand to escape his chains and challenging his fellow slaves to do the same. Those who did joined Kargath as he rampaged through the city and spilled the blood of his masters. Kargath and the former slaves established the Shattered Hand clan and settled in the Spires of Arak. In Gorgrond, the Blackrock clan had long clashed with ogre populations. By the time of 11 years before the Dark Portal, the Blackrocks had crushed their brutish enemies and driven most of them from the region. The highly superstitious Bleeding Hollow clan similarly clashed with ogres in their home of Tanaan Jungle. In Frostfire Ridge, tensions were increasing between the local orc clans and the Bladespire ogres.




Cho'gall vs Gul'dan
While Cho'gall is in the process of transforming K'ure into a void god, Gul'dan arrives and demands an explanation for Cho'gall's delay in reporting back. Cho'gall claims K'ure's void power for himself and uses void magic to block a punitive attack from his former master. Gul'dan, considering the mad ogre more trouble than he's worth, retreats.


Knights of the Ebon Blade vs the Legion

Returning to Acherus once again, the Ebon Blade were then directed to the Broken Shore to assault the demons there. With a combined assault from the Deathlord, the Four Horsemen, Daumyr, the Risen Thorignir, and Minerva, a good portion of the Legion's advance was crippled.


Sylvanas vs Azshara

Queen Azshara yells: Treacherous Banshee! Do you think I am blind to the darkness you seek to unleash?

Sylvanas vs the Lich King


Necrolords vs Demons


Venthyr vs Necrolords


Necrolords vs Mawsworn


Dreadlords vs Venthyr

[Super Dickmann]

WoW has defaulted to everyone being lawful good "we like Anduin" or else they become a raid boss that eats children and bans library books.

BFA truly was a disaster and Mists before it. The funny thing is, one of its raids gave them the perfect excuse to be able to not just portray the kind of things the thread is about but to do in gameplay terms. Battle for Dazar'alor's faction swap told a continuous story while keeping the player a gameplay participant in both. The raid where you play as the baddies is just asking to be made.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Another evil vs evil instance was the Horde vs the Gurubashi Trolls during the First War, it was perhaps the only instance where the orcs faced opponents that matched them in barbary, brutality and ruthlessness and it was a really badass moment for the trolls who used their natural agility and knowledge and mastery of their environment to foil the Horde's progress in Stranglehorn Vale.

[username993720]

Another evil vs evil instance was the Horde vs the Gurubashi Trolls during the First War, it was perhaps the only instance where the orcs faced opponents that matched them in barbary, brutality and ruthlessness and it was a really badass moment for the trolls who used their natural agility and knowledge and mastery of their environment to foil the Horde's progress in Stranglehorn Vale.

Damn... i was not aware of this. Just thinking about it intrigues me:

"When the Orcish Horde invaded Azeroth most of their forces war against the humans of Stormwind. However Kilrogg led his Bleeding Hollow clan into Stranglethorn Vale, which reminded the orcs of their ancestral home of Tanaan. Thus the Bleeding Hollow were determined to claim Stranglethorn for themselves, however, the Gurubashi refused to share their lands with outsiders and the two forces would clash in battle. Though the Gurubashi were weakened by the Gurubashi War their knowledge of the land allowed for them to launch a guerrilla campaign to drive the invading Bleeding Hollow out of the region. Kilrogg and his Bleeding Hollow would eventually be ordered to retreat by Warchief Blackhand after he learned of the conflict and concluded that too many orcs were dying for no apparent gain.