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  1. #121
    Bloodsail Admiral Psychotrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I get that this whole thing is all perspective, but I really hate that the idea that the primal agents of chaos are literally an ordered organization of fel beings. If it wasn't for Sargeras literally ordering them into a unified army, there would be no greater 'Chaos' force out there seeking to unwravelling order, as there should always be when considering a balance between cosmic Order and Chaos.

    Like in 40k, it's not just the Chaos Marines and their dark Primarchs who are the threat to the universe, there's still a heirarchy above of Chaos Gods who corrupted them all in the first place.


    But then, thinking about it, this means they're gonna 'Zovaal' another First One-style Chaos being into the lore and say he was the one who made Sargeras do everything Chaosy, and he's responsible for everything Fel.....
    It's almost like the pre-chronicle lore was fine and all this new stuff does is overcomplicate things in ways that barely make sense. The latest book is just another nail in the coffin for me, because the new cosmology was broken from the start.

    Defining the entire universe as a battle between opposite forces was doomed to fail. It limits the nuance of the setting, makes the universe feel small, and creates a ton of questions Blizzard doesnt have the writing skills to answer. You make a great point about the legion, but this is just the tip of the ice berg. Here's two random examples, but there's plenty more:

    1. How is necromancy solely on the side of death if, by definition, it's bringing things back to a form of life? Wouldnt that put it somewhere in between? Or some unholy UNION between life and death? Isnt that a more nuanced and open ended way of looking at it? I just hate how they pigeon-hole magic into these clean-cut, shallowly defined boxes. That makes it feel less "magical" for me at least.

    2. Why did they retcon the relationship between arcane and fel? The arcane was explicitly described as a form of raw, pure, chaotic magic. Not good or evil. It's just raw, unfiltered energy that can warp reality. Fel is simply the arcane driven to its most corrupt extremes. They're two sides of the same coin. This is reflected in numerous ways throughout the series:

    Netherstorm was destroyed by arcane from the nether magic according to the quests and the old blizzard website. Arcane mages in Netherstorm were called "Nethermancers". Anomalous is an arcane boss that loves chaos. Archimonde destroyed Dalaran in part for mages "stealing our fire". The war of the ancients happened because of misuse of arcane magic (unless thats been retconned too). The arcane / fel dichotomy was a core aspect of the franchise since the rts. Now that's just gone, leaving dozens of small, contradictory remnants in the game.

    I'm not saying none of these things can make sense if you "reinterpret" the lore enough, but why are they overcomplicating and overdefining these things in the first place? What has any of this done for the overall story?

    It just feels like they're making this up as they go along, tossing whatever parts of the lore are inconvenient to their short term goals, and redefining core parts of the series with no regard for the inconsistency it creates.

    Now we're reinterpreting the reinterpretation and it's just causing things to devolve even more. I honestly empathize with those of you who love Chronicle, and feel this new stuff diminishes it. But Chronicle did the same thing to the old lore, and it turned a lot of lore-nerds off from the series as well. Welcome to the club of disappointment.

    TL;DR instead of evolving the world in a natural, consistent way as the story expands, they just toss out whatever lore they want, replace it with stuff thats juvenile, shallow, and restrictive, while also managing to be convoluted as all hell. This current book is just the latest iteration in a long devolution of the warcraft lore, and it's just going to keep happening with each new lorebook.
    Last edited by Psychotrip; 2021-07-18 at 02:12 PM.
    Some people really like flavor. Occasionally subsisting on nutrient paste just doesn't feel the same as eating a steak. I get that flavor isn't for everyone, but I doubt removing all cosmetic indicators from the game would be appealing either. Nobody want to log in, queue to fight modestly sized blue checked box boss #7, initiate combat using an attack sequence of abilities 1-7 with a 13 beat repeat coda intermittently, and collect item level 630 slot 7 gear either.

  2. #122
    At least this time around it is apparent even without the text that the map is subjective and flawed : we know that the Arbiter is a construct that came quite late in existence in the realm of death. There is no reason to be part of the map...
    And regarding disorder I guess we are done for some time with great demon threats, thry feel that there is no reason to further elaborate in a pantheon of some sorts there especially since the burning Legion was a creation of a titan and the nathrezim were actually agents of death I doubt we have ever met higher panrhesque figures there and they don't seem to care for that,...

  3. #123
    Oh, so this is related to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhsDlrL0a3c - what do you think about "it's just a matter of perspective" explanation?

  4. #124
    The Patient Chakah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    Oh, so this is related to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhsDlrL0a3c - what do you think about "it's just a matter of perspective" explanation?
    He almost got it right.

    Honestly, I'm surprised people didn't look at the chart and realize it was a 2D drawing of a 3D cosmology when chronicle first came out. Guess it was my science background...
    Life/Death is an axis, as is Order/Disorder, and Light/Shadow. You can spin them like a dice and have whichever ones you want 'up'. Here is a visualization of this kind of shape:



    The snakes are pretty much yin/yang, and we've seen this in the 'lifecycle' of the Naaru with each side containing a core of its opposite.

    I don't see anything particularly new or exciting about this version of the chart tbh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychotrip View Post
    1. How is necromancy solely on the side of death if, by definition, it's bringing things back to a form of life? Wouldnt that put it somewhere in between? Or some unholy UNION between life and death? Isnt that a more nuanced and open ended way of looking at it? I just hate how they pigeon-hole magic into these clean-cut, shallowly defined boxes. That makes it feel less "magical" for me at least.

    2. Why did they retcon the relationship between arcane and fel? The arcane was explicitly described as a form of raw, pure, chaotic magic. Not good or evil. It's just raw, unfiltered energy that can warp reality. Fel is simply the arcane driven to its most corrupt extremes.

    They're two sides of the same coin.
    Your last line here is key. Think about it in the context of Yin and Yang.
    Last edited by Chakah; 2021-07-25 at 10:59 PM.

  5. #125
    Warchief Progenitor Aquarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chakah View Post
    He almost got it right.

    Honestly, I'm surprised people didn't look at the chart and realize it was a 2D drawing of a 3D cosmology when chronicle first came out. Guess it was my science background...
    Life/Death is an axis, as is Order/Disorder, and Light/Shadow. You can spin them like a dice and have whichever ones you want 'up'. Here is a visualization of this kind of shape:



    The snakes are pretty much yin/yang, and we've seen this in the 'lifecycle' of the Naaru with each side containing a core of its opposite.

    I don't see anything particularly new or exciting about this version of the chart tbh.

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    Your last line here is key. Think about it in the context of Yin and Yang.
    Broker’s chart is bad. It’s just their flawed perception of things. That’s not what the First Ones intended to do in the first place. It only shows how the world they created has fallen apart because of arrogance and greed!
    Last edited by Progenitor Aquarius; 2021-07-29 at 05:17 PM.

  6. #126
    While it doesn't show anything new, I like that different denizens of different realities view existence different.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by olddog View Post


    What is this mean?
    If you look closely, the chart is biased towards things from the Shadowlands:
    - Order looks very Oribos/Broker
    - Death is the Arbiter
    - Light looks sort of a N'aaru
    - Shadow a tentacle-planet
    - Disorder is represented just as the Burning Legion
    - Life looks totally like Ardenweald

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    I think a gods point of view is probably more relevant than some merchants.. lol this has to be a joke.
    What why?

    We already know the Titans are wrong about things?

    Also I pretty sure if your taking a Gods opinion as truth or more important you're missing a huge part of wows lore since atleast Wraith of the Lich King?

    The literal constant failure of divine being and the constant winning of mortals.

    It's said at the end of Cataclysm.

  9. #129
    Old God Kathranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychotrip View Post
    Defining the entire universe as a battle between opposite forces was doomed to fail.
    I'm sorry, but that seems like an extremely disingenuous argument.



    Conflict between opposite forces has been the core pillar of the entire franchise from the very start.



    1. How is necromancy solely on the side of death if, by definition, it's bringing things back to a form of life? Wouldnt that put it somewhere in between? Or some unholy UNION between life and death? Isnt that a more nuanced and open ended way of looking at it? I just hate how they pigeon-hole magic into these clean-cut, shallowly defined boxes. That makes it feel less "magical" for me at least.

    2. Why did they retcon the relationship between arcane and fel? The arcane was explicitly described as a form of raw, pure, chaotic magic. Not good or evil. It's just raw, unfiltered energy that can warp reality. Fel is simply the arcane driven to its most corrupt extremes. They're two sides of the same coin. This is reflected in numerous ways throughout the series:
    Naaru transition from Light to Shadow. Sargeras is a fallen Titan. Life and Death are often cyclical, in fact the Shadowlands version of the Cosmology chart describes reality itself as "The Great Cycle."

    It's really not so black and white as you are trying to make it out to be in this post. In fact quite the opposite, there has always been an ebb and flow between the opposing forces.


    Nevermind that the "new" Cosmology is actually basically identical to the old one. It just positions Death at the top and mixes the "good" and "evil" forces together rather than grouping them into opposite sides of the chart.

    All there really is to take from it is that denizens of the Shadowlands have a more neutral perspective on how the Cosmic Forces relate to one another, and a less neutral perspective on Death's prominence in the conflict.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chakah View Post
    Your last line here is key. Think about it in the context of Yin and Yang.
    I don't disagree that there is an obvious element of duality, but they are even more obviously representative of the ouroboros, which typically represents the eternal cycle of life, death, and rebirth.

    In the Shadowlands perspective, only Life and Death are depicted as interlinking with each other, but we know that the other forces also have cyclical aspects.

    I think one interpretation of the chart is that Reality is the realm that enables that cyclical process. Perhaps under normal circumstances they would always be in pure opposition, and only through Reality can Light become Shadow or Life become Death. Perhaps the purpose of Reality is to unify and balance the six forces.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    There are 3 things we should take into consideration:

    1. Brokers do NOT trust Elune's creations.

    2. There may be a Pantheon of Life, and Elune is heavily connected with her sister in realms despite they themselves having some type of fallout.

    And 3. Elune's influence appears to affect both Death and Life itself, and surprisingly, Elune's moon is above the Arbiter, which she is implied to be the invention of Zovaal's original might ripped from him.

    Which gives me 2 to maybe 3 theories.

    1. Zovaal is An'she (I doubt this highly).

    2. Zovaal and Elune are lovers (I think this is among the most likely).

    Or 3. Zovaal did shit against Life, and Elune is really pissed about everyone, not just Zovaal.

    Either way, I expect 9.2 to give us MANY answers regarding Elune's role in the Cosmos.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The Chronicle is still the Bible of WoW. Did you know the Bible IRL isn't 100% correct or flawless either?

    I think the most likely thing is that Zovaal did the Arbiter's job, and at some point he though "What's the point of all this? Why are we all working on this seemingly endless cycle? Fuck this! I'm stopping this nonsense and build something better myself", creating a rift between Life and Death, and forcing the other Eternals to stop him and imprison him.
    About Elune and the Winter Queen at odds, my theory:
    - Zovaal did something against Life (probably invaded the realm? maybe he killed someone in the Panteon of Life?)
    - Elune is angry with WQ because she thinks that WQ should've stopped Zovaal before that happened.
    - WQ is angry with Elune because she couldn't possibly stop Zovaal before, and see's Elune's wrath unjustified.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darknessvamp View Post
    At least there is one humourous point that can be taken away from all the retcons and reframed cosmic nonsense and that is despite depicting in both cases of the Chart Order, and by extension the Titans, as an outside force to Reality and 'The Cycle', they still haven't answered why their major representatives have only formed and been born from planets within said Reality or 'Cycle' and in contradiction to all other aspects that proclaim (and in most cases have shown) to have formed and originated from their own realms. Or is the next twist we never were in 'Reality'.
    I think Titans are not the top notch in Order, and instead, like Old Gods, they are just seed. That's why they're born from seemingly random planets and the others don't know if and where there are other Titans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darknessvamp View Post
    To be fair the writers are heavily suggesting they think the Brokers are the ones 'solving' the cosmic clusterfuck which they've invented with both how their findings are presented in the game and with the constant pandering that they have the most comprehensive understanding of 'The First Ones' (gasp the thing no one else even mentions or references?!? /obvioussarcasm) and the inclusion of them thinking themselves 'correct' on various things in this Grimoire just adds to that sentiment further. Additionally if it was just meant to be further emphasis on charaterisation wouldn't that be better achieved through further exploration in game rather than creating another book with the express intent of saying "this is how things are" and "look how right we are than (nebulous) others". Also my comment regarding Danuser is in reference to how long till he makes it clear the book is just very expensive tinder in his eyes.
    There's a diary in-game from one Archeologist Broker talking about the 6 forces in the universe and what appear to be a fractal 7th force over them (hints at the First Ones) and how they replaced him because their compatriots saw him as crazy.

    https://ptr.wowhead.com/news/tazaves...-of-the-322938

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    It's supposed to be reflecting how the Brokers view things. In their opinions, Death is good and Life is bad. Consequently, Death is buddied up with the "good" forces and Life is buddied up with the "bad".
    Also, if you think about that, it makes sense:
    - Order doesn't have actual life, they're all constructs: Titans (they're sort of superior constellars), Constellars, Titan creations, etc. They're all constructs.
    - Light seems to be the same, with the N'aaru.
    - Void creates life where there isn't with all the "fleshification" that the Old Gods create.
    - Fel, while we've only seen the more destructive face of it, it's just pure change. When the Shadowlands rely on the imposed order to work, I can see why it's also bad.

  11. #131
    The Broker states that our Chronicle was written from the perspective of the Titans and that "they put themselves first" in regards to the creation of the universe.

    This statement is false.

    If that was the case, then "Order" would be on the very top not "Light", as is the case in the Titan perspective.

    (Instead of this - the Broker's own accusation of putting themselves first is only true for them, since they put the lesser forces of Life and Death on top.)

    The Titans - instead of putting themselves first - recognized the two primary forces of Light and Shadow, without which neither Life nor Death, nor the lesser elements like earth, fire, wind or air could have been created.

    Until this supposed 7th force that ordered the first 6 is introduced, I'll stick to the first one being closer to the truth.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Going further, Light and Shadow can be recognized as two Primary elements, form which the lesser elements (earth, air, fire, water as well as the highest of the lesser elements and also closest to the progenitor forces: spirit and decay) are directly born.

    But at the same time that Light and Dark occupy the physical realm, they are much more that that: also the spiritual concepts of good(order, life) and evil(disorder, death).

    (As a side note: This concpet is also present in FF14 by the way.)

    Explaining how Disorder and Order and Life and Death relate is trickier, but since the old gods stated that they are neither alive nor dead and they are "above the cycle(" in their perspective) As well as the naaru having both light and dark sides further solidifies the statement that Light and Shadow encompasses all other apsects of the cosmology inside them.
    Last edited by TotemTick; 2021-07-27 at 09:43 AM.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by TotemTick View Post
    The Broker states that our Chronicle was written from the perspective of the Titans and that "they put themselves first" in regards to the creation of the universe.

    This statement is false.

    If that was the case, then "Order" would be on the very top not "Light", as is the case in the Titan perspective.

    (Instead of this - the Broker's own accusation of putting themselves first is only true for them, since they put the lesser forces of Life and Death on top.)

    The Titans - instead of putting themselves first - recognized the two primary forces of Light and Shadow, without which neither Life nor Death, nor the lesser elements like earth, fire, wind or air could have been created.

    Until this supposed 7th force that ordered the first 6 is introduced, I'll stick to the first one being closer to the truth.
    Idk why people think the 7th power is the First Ones, or that it aided in ordering the other forces in any way tbh. If anything, due to its nature in influencing the 6 powers to battle against one another for control over reality so it can claim reality alone, and due to other factors, I’d argue that means Evil First One tbh.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by pacotaco View Post
    I think the most likely thing is that Zovaal did the Arbiter's job, and at some point he though "What's the point of all this? Why are we all working on this seemingly endless cycle? Fuck this! I'm stopping this nonsense and build something better myself", creating a rift between Life and Death, and forcing the other Eternals to stop him and imprison him.
    About Elune and the Winter Queen at odds, my theory:
    - Zovaal did something against Life (probably invaded the realm? maybe he killed someone in the Panteon of Life?)
    - Elune is angry with WQ because she thinks that WQ should've stopped Zovaal before that happened.
    - WQ is angry with Elune because she couldn't possibly stop Zovaal before, and see's Elune's wrath unjustified.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I think Titans are not the top notch in Order, and instead, like Old Gods, they are just seed. That's why they're born from seemingly random planets and the others don't know if and where there are other Titans.

    - - - Updated - - -



    There's a diary in-game from one Archeologist Broker talking about the 6 forces in the universe and what appear to be a fractal 7th force over them (hints at the First Ones) and how they replaced him because their compatriots saw him as crazy.

    https://ptr.wowhead.com/news/tazaves...-of-the-322938

    - - - Updated - - -



    Also, if you think about that, it makes sense:
    - Order doesn't have actual life, they're all constructs: Titans (they're sort of superior constellars), Constellars, Titan creations, etc. They're all constructs.
    - Light seems to be the same, with the N'aaru.
    - Void creates life where there isn't with all the "fleshification" that the Old Gods create.
    - Fel, while we've only seen the more destructive face of it, it's just pure change. When the Shadowlands rely on the imposed order to work, I can see why it's also bad.
    All that’s said is that the 7th power is above the Chart, tho they do not link it at all with the First zones. They seem to also imply the First zones being the original 6, with Light, Shadow, etc being the balanced 6 the First Ones forged once united. The 7th could very well have been the cause of conflict, war, etc. It could be the platonic concept of what is known as “Warcraft”.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    Idk why people think the 7th power is the First Ones, or that it aided in ordering the other forces in any way tbh. If anything, due to its nature in influencing the 6 powers to battle against one another for control over reality so it can claim reality alone, and due to other factors, I’d argue that means Evil First One tbh.
    I agree with your sentiment about them.
    The First Ones are not a cosmological force in any way shape or form, they are at most creations as implied in their naming: First Ones (to have been created by something) at most. We only see them as first ones because maybe through them we can reach a deeper understanding, but there has to be a force behind it which set them in motion.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by pacotaco View Post
    About Elune and the Winter Queen at odds, my theory:
    - Zovaal did something against Life (probably invaded the realm? maybe he killed someone in the Panteon of Life?)
    - Elune is angry with WQ because she thinks that WQ should've stopped Zovaal before that happened.
    - WQ is angry with Elune because she couldn't possibly stop Zovaal before, and see's Elune's wrath unjustified.
    I still think its very likely Elune works with Zovaal, has a pact or whatever you want to call it which is why the winter queen despises her.

  16. #136
    It is clearly stated in the opening lines of the first Chronicle, that Light and Dark were once the same force (Twilight?)

    and that once thy split, that split set in motion the events and the birth of the cosmos.

    This 7th force may just very well be this primary force of Twilight - neither being nor unbeing - that split into being and unbeing.
    It's just that neither the mortal races and not even the immortals or eternals (Brokers and whatever else falls into that category) could handle this concept of existing in a timeless dream. Because it was beyond even their understanding.

  17. #137
    Warchief Progenitor Aquarius's Avatar
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    Every answer regarding creation of the universe lies within the Halls of Ulduar. Why, how, who. There is everything there. All you need to do is to look around. There is also a clue on how to fix the problem that we curently have but this will require a time travel.

  18. #138
    Coming soon: Re-refined cosmology

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    Every answer regarding creation of the universe lies within the Halls of Ulduar. Why, how, who. There is everything there. All you need to do is to look around. There is also a clue on how to fix the problem that we curently have but this will require a time travel.
    Interesting observation. As I never did group content I'm not familiar at all with said lore.

    Please elaborate precisely what you mean. I'm interested in hearing every detail

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by TotemTick View Post
    The Broker states that our Chronicle was written from the perspective of the Titans and that "they put themselves first" in regards to the creation of the universe.

    This statement is false.
    It's a remarkably human view, though. They simply assumed everybody else sees the world the same as them.

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