Have you noticed wipe-a-phobia on your server?

[Ragedaug]

Personally I don't care enough to wipe X times with a pug - not really worth my limited free time. You can tell by the time you clear kz if your group is good enough to do it or not.

That would make sense. I don't care for pugging in general, especially on challenging content. That said, even my guild groups seem to be adverse to wiping, which is what the OP said.

As there is no penalty for wiping, I have no problem wiping. As some background for me, I'm a mediocre player. My parses are normally around 50%. I still die to mechanics sometimes that I should have avoided. So sometimes even in heroics, like running a Heroic Shattered Halls with a Warrior tank and no CC, my guild still wiped several times. There was at least one maybe two guildies, who were getting increasingly upset and frustrated. Meanwhile, I had no problem continuing to push it as I know that will help me improve, and it's fun overcoming a challenge or obstacle.

You can see top guilds in Retail that have no problem wiping. They wipe and wipe and wipe until they beat the boss. There is never a "I give up" or "it's too hard". I don't know that any game in and of itself causes people to change their attitude about pushing through wipes, or giving up if they wipe too much. I think it's just the nature of some people. Some people have different definitions of what makes their gaming fun. Some look at dungeons and raids as farming, and wipes increase their farm time so it frustrates them. Others look at dungeons and raids as a challenge and wiping means they are being challenged, so they enjoy pushing through the wipes. Two different people, the game didn't create how they feel, and they have completely different definitions for what makes their game play fun.

I recall in the original BC that we encountered the same attitude of people being wipe adverse, though granted, it was probably more from pugs who helped fill out our roster that were wanting a full carry, and not happy to have to progress with us.

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In theory, yes. I agree that Netherspite is actually rather easy, and a good RL with solid direction can make it a loot pinata even with rather new players. I know, I actually had to argue with my own guild to tell them to stop being pussies about this boss, and I actually considered it one of the easier ones when I was RL in 2007.

But then, let's say it again, theory isn't practice. And in practice people manage to be confused. That's the difference between forum debates and what we actually see in the real world.

The problem with Netherspite is that one bad player has the ability to cause the entire raid to wipe. And lets say you have 3-4 players that are pretty good, but occasionally has trouble tunnel focusing. If one of them tunnels their focus each attempt, it can lead to a long night of wiping.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

It's the current generation of gamers. Everything is extremely time sensitive and has to be meta top to bottom. Even though the people pushing this agenda are playing something not top tier meta and spend more time in game doing a bunch of afk laps in the capitial..aka.. doing nothing but wasting time. Wipes are considered far far below them.

[Prozach]

TBH, if I'm running with a pug, I don't care for Netherspite either. It's not because I'm phobic about wiping, it's just because I don't want to spend a half hour explaining the fight to people who didn't do it 15 years ago and couldn't be bothered to read a strat ahead of time. For the comparative difficult of 'Spite versus every other fight in the dungeon, the loot just isn't worth it either. That fight is like a primer for Mag and Mag pugs are horrendous still.

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The problem with Netherspite is that one bad player has the ability to cause the entire raid to wipe. And lets say you have 3-4 players that are pretty good, but occasionally has trouble tunnel focusing. If one of them tunnels their focus each attempt, it can lead to a long night of wiping.

The same can be said of Shade and Prince (if you're not using door strat) and then every fight in the game after Kara, for the most part. Although some of the retail fight mechanics have gotten more complex over the years, they've also become more forgiving--as in it requires more idiots to cause a wipe than just one and recovery is much easier. We had to pug out one spot for Mag last night, who is always one-shot, and guess who screwed up on their cube twice? Similarly, I don't want to worry about someone on Netherspite standing in the wrong beam. The content info is easily accessible and people should be expected to research a fight before getting into LFG chat and trying to find a group. They don't. After all these years, there are still idiots out there with zero common sense or courtesy towards the people they're playing with. This is also one of the reasons I'm looking forward to the phase 2 purge; a lot of people will leave and the capable players will have moved away from Kara, where the idiots can continue to struggle for the next six months.

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It's the current generation of gamers. Everything is extremely time sensitive and has to be meta top to bottom. Even though the people pushing this agenda are playing something not top tier meta and spend more time in game doing a bunch of afk laps in the capitial..aka.. doing nothing but wasting time. Wipes are considered far far below them.

Wipes aren't below me, there's just no reason to participate in them. If you want to spend an extra hour wiping in Kara and be an "oldschool" gamer, power to you.

[Akka]

The problem with Netherspite is that one bad player has the ability to cause the entire raid to wipe. And lets say you have 3-4 players that are pretty good, but occasionally has trouble tunnel focusing. If one of them tunnels their focus each attempt, it can lead to a long night of wiping.

That's part of the difference between theory and practice yes. As well as countless other minute details that add up.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Wipes aren't below me, there's just no reason to participate in them. If you want to spend an extra hour wiping in Kara and be an "oldschool" gamer, power to you.

Sorry if it bothered you. I didn't mean to throw you on the defensive.

[Farora]

I never pugged KZ in TBC, sounds miserable in general.

[Daymanmb]

Its because only people raiding TBC were the people not good enough for mythic in retail, but they think they are really good since they can do a single mechanic. Anything that breaks their ego is a no go.

lmao. retail sucks, bro. get a grip.

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TL, DR - People don't want to take risks. Not exactly a phobia, just an unwillingness to put up with others' crap in pug/disorganized environments

this should end the thread. it wont, but it should.

[Biomega]

People aren't afraid of wipes, they're afraid of wasting time. Wipes are merely one metric to predict time wastage - though it might be a rough and inaccurate prediction at times, seeing people perform poorly and cause a wipe often gives you a good idea of where a group is headed. And if that future includes you investing another hour or two into something that looks like an outside chance at paying off, many people simply call it quits to spend their time more productively.

Back in the original, wiping was often part of an overall enjoyable experience. But that was when things were new and exciting and there was less competition for your time in terms of direct payoffs. Now people have become so saturated with both the experience and alternative ways to spend their time that their threshold for time wastage has, overall, gone down.

[Sprinky]

It is pretty frustrating how peoples attitude has changed over the years. Imagine putting hundreds of hours into a character but only being prepared to do the easy 'free loot' bosses. I miss that feeling of wiping 50 times on a boss and making improvements each time before finally getting the adrenaline rush of the kill. I know you cant really expect that from phase 1 content, but not being prepared to put in 4-5 wipes on fairly straightforward bosses is just crazy imo.

[ellieg]

It is pretty frustrating how peoples attitude has changed over the years. Imagine putting hundreds of hours into a character but only being prepared to do the easy 'free loot' bosses. I miss that feeling of wiping 50 times on a boss and making improvements each time before finally getting the adrenaline rush of the kill. I know you cant really expect that from phase 1 content, but not being prepared to put in 4-5 wipes on fairly straightforward bosses is just crazy imo.

A lot of the problems come from your phrase "making improvements". If there is actual progression, im all for it. A lot of times, especially in pugs, its ppl that simply will not improve that make most ppl want to avoid bosses.

[vian]

Pretty sure that was the case back in Vanilla/TBC too.

At least we had a lot of wipe complainers.

I distinctly remember boosting people through t4 content, with a few guildies of mine, and Andy Green Gear complained about his repairs after one wipe.

[Tortuga234]

I've noticed a very strange phenomenon my server, it's been consistent enough for the past few months I think it's definitely a real thing and not just random occurrences. I've dubbed it wipe-a-phobia.

The first week of TBC I pugged KZ with a fairly good group, we killed everything except Netherspite, one shotting almost every boss (think we wiped on Shade and Prince once each). Nobody could summon Nightbane yet so that wasn't on the table. Me and like one other person were like "K Netherspite now?" and pretty much the whole group said no. "We'll wipe a bunch, it's a technical fight, etc." I'm thinking to myself, so? So you try 3-4 times and wipe. There's no trash to clear and even if you don't down him, it's good practice for next time so that you can go in and kill him cleanly the next week.

Next week different pug same thing, nobody would even bother attempting Netherspite or Nightbane (which we could actually summon).

So then I start finally running with my guild, but nothing changed. Every week we skip Nightbane. Every week we skip Mag. "We don't have the right composition" "We aren't ready for that yet" people don't even want to TRY. We finally tried Nightbane one week and after 1 wipe people were quitting.

So I started doing Pug Mag's since my guild wasn't interested. The first few were pretty painful as you would expect. People would join the pug and after 1 wipe you'd have like maybe 10 people just instant leave.

People seem to have this really strong aversion to wiping that I never saw back in original TBC. Wiping on a boss over and over again was just part of the game for everybody who tried to raid and weren't in an elite guild.

The funny thing is, I'm now in a Mag group that downs him every week and we do so because we put in our wipe dues. We started as a mostly Pug and wiped on him one week for hours, the trash resapwned, we cleared it again, we wiped more Didn't even down him that week.

The next week with mostly the same group we downed him in 3 attempts. Something we never would have done without all the practice the week before.

It's definitely a big difference from original TBC. People seem to just have no interest in even attempting a boss they think will likely be difficult, they just want to roll over and 1 shot everything.

That is due to total dumbification of the game and instant gratification culture cultivated by the developers to appeal to the masses. It's human nature to want to take the path of least resistance. "I want this thing\boss\loot\etc. and I want it now."

These days players don't want to work towards anything. They only want the result, and they want it now. The logic is - "We wiped, this group sucks and diminishes my chances to get the thing I want right now, so I'll either go look for another group or just give up."

[erifwodahs]

And I will say this, downing Mag after wiping to him constantly for a few weeks straight was by far the most satisfying thing I've done in classic TBC so far.

Well, if everyone is the same - that's cool, but if there are people who are good/better than average, they will just go. Because honestly, at the start it was cool, as you were undergeared af and it could pose a challenge, but wiping on it currently is like trying to play table top game when your team mate is stupid af and something very trivial becomes struggle - that's bad experience.

Good players don't want to go on those bosses because they know that there will be wipes because of some dum dums and they need loot from other bosses.
Bad guys know that if wipes happen players will leave if their goal is to have a quick run.

Solution? Find a guild who has same goas as you.

[mmocfd1b0ab5a3]

lmao. retail sucks, bro. get a grip.

It's true what he said, you are living proof of the ppl he mentioned.

[ellieg]

It's true what he said, you are living proof of the ppl he mentioned.

I dont agree. At least in my guild, no one thinks they are "really good". Most used to do mythic but now prefer the laid back attitude of classic. Fun going into raid and just chillin

[Mercadi]

I noticed that sort of behavior in WOTLK+ pug raids. A pug raid on a medium/smaller server was nonsense, but on larger servers there were some folks from raiding guilds who either didn't get a spot, or missed the raid, and were gathering before the reset. The gearscore requirements were drastic, some of the pugs were from a high-end guilds, and some were elitist, quick to blame anyone except for themselves for any wipe. Drama was rampant. In such an unhealthy environment, players didn't want to put up with it too long (even if themselves were unwittingly part of the problem). This quitting after the first 1-2 wipes became a usual behavior then. Idk if this carried on to the latest expansions.

[facefist]

It’s because people suck at the game and not being able to do mechanics correctly from 2007 is pathetic. It is demoralizing to go into those fights and wipe because people can’t do 1-2 mechanics. I’m fortunate to be in a guild that clears it all and is capable, but I’d refuse to do those optional bosses if people aren’t able to do them correctly.

Exactly.

People dont play TBC for challenge (because there is none). Those who are prepared to wipe and practice play retail, because hard content actually exist there. TBC is a game for casuals and casuals don't want to spend much time progressing.

TBC is just for re-visiting the old content that was challenging 14 years ago, and having to reprogress through meaningless content is not fun for most.

[Zaqwert]

That is due to total dumbification of the game and instant gratification culture cultivated by the developers to appeal to the masses. It's human nature to want to take the path of least resistance. "I want this thing\boss\loot\etc. and I want it now."

These days players don't want to work towards anything. They only want the result, and they want it now. The logic is - "We wiped, this group sucks and diminishes my chances to get the thing I want right now, so I'll either go look for another group or just give up."

I heard a youtube video talking about retail wow and they used a term I thought fit very well, "goal oriented gaming"

Very few people play WoW anymore, either retail or classic, seemingly for the joy of it or for fun of simply playing it. People have very specific goals in mind and only seek to obtain those goals as quickly and easily as possible. It expalins why when you fail slightly behind in a battle ground there's an immediate chorus of "just let them win, get this over with."

These people aren't playing the battleground for fun or competition, they're in it for the marks or honor. The battleground is just a chore to them to get the "goods"

It's like people view everything in the game as a chore simply to get "the goods" and thus those chores are to be optimized/skipped as much as possible.

I don't think this phenomenon is unique to WoW but to much of modern gaming. Modern WoW has certainly embraced and encouraged this mentality though.

[GreenJesus]

lmao. retail sucks, bro. get a grip.

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this should end the thread. it wont, but it should.

I don't play retail. Cancelled sub a few months ago and play FF14.

[enigma77]

Bads gonna bad