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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I don't really think Elune is a nefarious being, nor one who routinely and/or directly intercedes in the lives of her worshippers, so I would heavily doubt she would interface with Zovaal on any level (and likely can't in the first place). The cinematic strongly implies that Elune's feeling of having condemned the souls of the Night Elven dead was upon learning they had been sent to the Maw, and not the original desired outcome of them going to Ardenweald and the Winter Queen. Assuming Elune has no agency in what happened at Teldrassil (e.g. no real way of stopping Sylvanas and no way of limiting casualties), then earmarking the souls would really be all she could do to give their deaths a purpose beyond senseless genocide at Sylvanas' hands. This would be more in keeping with the characterization of Elune we've previously known, insofar as that goes.

    While I concede it is possible Elune is not as benevolent as her previous characterization would show, I think it is unlikely she actively designed or prompted the tragedy of Teldrassil. She probably wouldn't view it as "lucking" onto it, either. She betrays a fair amount of resignation in her words to the Winter Queen, as if what happened at Teldrassil were more or less fated to occur, and she simply used the tragedy to (hopefully) greater effect than it would've otherwise resulted in.
    What I got out of it is that Elune could have theorietically intervened somehow. Probably not in a grand blinding flash of light, but maybe in a more subtle way by maybe stopping Sylvanas somehow, or giving Tyrande or Malfurion a boost to prevent Saurfang from managing to attack Malfurion from behind.

    What I guess we are supposed to conclude then is that Elune didnt intervene either because she distincly needed the Nelves to die for the greater good of saving Ardenweald (which form her point of view would prevent Zovaal from gaining power) or she couldnt/didnt want to directly intervene in what she might have assumed were mortal affairs. Elune didnt know Zovaal was plotting anything, and therefore probably didnt know that Sylvanas was his agent either, so from her point of view I guess she probably just saw it as a run of the mill war.

    Regardless its a case where a big question was asked on why Elune didnt directly intervene to stop Sylvanas. And while I guess the reasoning works if you make some assumptions and stretch to reach conclusions there obvious outcome here is that Elune didnt stop Teldrassil burning because of a misunderstanding, which is horribly weak as a resolution goes.
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  2. #462
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    I don't see how it's a false choice? Tyrande can still murder Sylvanas to fulfill her vengeance. It's not concluded until Tyrande makes said choice. We all know what the choice gonna be I'm sure... But that has no bearing on Tyrande making the choice for her character arc.

    Now she has to make the choice to either do so or save ardenweald...she couldn't make that choice earlier because of lack of knowledge.

    Yes writing is bad..not aruuing that.
    But then it would not be a choice either because now I could kill Sylvanas without any power and effort and then go for renewal.
    It is more to kill Syvlanas would be the path of renewal. Because it would be the way to quench the thirst for revenge.
    Tyrande -The Horde gave us Sylvanas's head as a token of apology and willingness to change-

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Maiev was a Watcher and peerless tracker, she would likely have committed the terrain to memory from just her visit in WC3: TFT, especially given the strong impact that it had on her life afterward. The Tomb of Sargeras was a deeply forbidden place, and for good reason - it's also worth pointing out that Naisha was originally killed by a massive cave-in during their flight from the Tomb and wouldn't have a grave to speak of, it's highly likely that Maiev wouldn't even know where her body was.
    I can accept it. Although it would be 100% out of character that he has not searched for Naisha's body. more when he immediately recognizes her as Banshe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    It's strongly implied, to the point of being more or less direct, that Elune's choice of "condemn" means about their ultimate fate in the Maw, and not their deaths as mortals. Elune is highly likely not responsible for their deaths, but meant to be responsible for their arrival in Ardenweald in order to both aid the Winter Queen and possibly be reborn once more into the mortal world. Tyrande was herself unaware of what was happening, as were the rest of the kaldorei people; and both were speaking from a place of understandable confusion and anger.
    but for this we have no sources. Tyrande did not make that claim in other Catholic events so the whole story seems to point to Elune being able to prevent the tree from burning.
    There is nothing that really marks us that speaks of not returning Wisp.
    Because the "in the wake of the disaster" can suggest both Teldrazzil and the drought of souls. It is more at no time there speaks of Teldrazzil so it is more logical that it is the soul drought.

  3. #463
    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    I don't know if this has been discussed but Elune basically says she sends the Night Elves to aid ardenweald. She's admitting complicity to the Attack on Teldrassil.

    Or to put it in a way people can understand, Elune is ACTUALLY guilty of genocide.
    ...no
    just no, theres nothing else to say about this

    she says AFTER THEY DIED she let them pass into SL instead of claiming them for her own (making them wisps or whatnot)...

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by Smallfruitbat View Post
    Except, she's not really offering Tyrande a choice, it's coercion at best. Sure, you can have your vengeance but if you do, then you'll condemn Ardenweald and all the poor souls who could have a happy afterlife there.
    It's not really coercion. It's a choice between killing someone meaningless and then dying meaninglessly, or live and help your people in a way that actually matters.

    Even if Sylvanas was definitely still on the Jailers side then she doesnt pose a threat, and the Nelf souls are still in danger. If Tyrande died then she would be unable to help any other Nelf soul. Instead she could live, not go and kill Sylvanas herself, and instead use her power to defeat Zovaal.


    Besides, on a meta-level its only an impactful choice because we as the players are seemingly expected to understand that Sylvanas will be redeemed. From Tyrande's point of view she is really just giving up the guarantee that Sylvanas dies by her hand, not really that Sylvanas won't die at all. For all she and everyone else knows they could be torturing Sylvanas until they find out what the Jailer wants then punting her into a fire.
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  5. #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    More and more i am awaiting the day for a radical "atheist" (for the lack of a better word) movement, whose sole goal is to eradicate the influence of any "divine forces" from Azeroth.
    At this point, I kinda WANT to see that sort of group. Someone that's pissed off at all these high-and-mighty powerful beings making judgement over countless souls and not facing any repercussions. Tear it all down, baby!

    The lore in this cinematic was awful. It makes Elune out to be both a moron AND malevolent, and also helps shift blame away from Sylvanas, something I'm sure they're going to push hard to try and redeem her (which is disgusting). Terrible, just stupid.

  6. #466
    Quote Originally Posted by eurojust View Post
    No, that's not. Elune said that she condemned them, therefore she's responsible for the situation in letting her people burn (which is why so many night elves thought- rightly at the time, that Elune abandoned them).
    It's explicit.
    no, she condemned them bcs she let them pass to SL where she thought they will be directed by arbiter to ardenweald (at least most of them) but instead they ended up in maw...
    they were dead already, have fuck all to do with "condemning" them...

  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    no, she condemned them bcs she let them pass to SL where she thought they will be directed by arbiter to ardenweald (at least most of them) but instead they ended up in maw...
    they were dead already, have fuck all to do with "condemning" them...
    Elune condemned them by letting the genocide happen. She wasn't responsible for the afterlife being broken. Any soul would go the maw anyway.

  8. #468
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    More and more i am awaiting the day for a radical "atheist" (for the lack of a better word) movement, whose sole goal is to eradicate the influence of any "divine forces" from Azeroth.
    That's pretty much the Mag'har's thing more or less. I really hoped they would explore it further, but here we are and they're probably gonna end up as forgotten as Ji Firepaw...

  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    It's not really coercion. It's a choice between killing someone meaningless and then dying meaninglessly, or live and help your people in a way that actually matters.
    .
    Of course that's coercion : "if you choose vengeance, it's over for ardenweald etc". That's not a choice here. Except if you're a maniac.

  10. #470
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    But then it would not be a choice either because now I could kill Sylvanas without any power and effort and then go for renewal.
    It is more to kill Syvlanas would be the path of renewal. Because it would be the way to quench the thirst for revenge.
    Tyrande -The Horde gave us Sylvanas's head as a token of apology and willingness to change-
    I'm not sure I get what you are saying.. You can't do anything. We didn't even kill Sylvanas...she is now in a weakened state though. And here is the choice for Tyrande. Will she kill Sylvanas or will she let her be and let Sylvanas aid us defeat the jailor.

    Does she want revenge for teldrassil which she has striven for for so long... Or will she let it go and save everything else.

    The entire point of my argument were a response to people saying "lol so Elune now gives her a choice but not when she could kill Sylvanas earlier?". Which is missing the point that Tyrande doesn't have the full picture to make that choice at the earlier situation... thus Elune robbed her of her power. Which is an act of good...
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  11. #471
    Quote Originally Posted by eurojust View Post
    Elune condemned them by letting the genocide happen. She wasn't responsible for the afterlife being broken. Any soul would go the maw anyway.
    watch the video once more and LISTEN TO IT ffs...
    "IN THE WAKE OF TRAGEDY" she send the souls, literaly said after they already died she didnt intervene to take them but let them pass...
    she didnt stop sylvanas from burning the tree from the same reason she didnt help nelfs in ANY WAR... in over 10thousands years of their history, she never did help them in a war, she helped very FEW individuals, but thats it...

    and she DID NOT KNOW wtf is going on in shadowlands, she knew what winter queen told her - that ardenweald needs more souls - but thats it, winter queen didnt know more before we told her after finishing campaign...
    seriosuly, it seems to me like people ignore the story completely while playing and then complain it doesnt make sense, well ofc it doesnt if you dont pay attention...

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    I'm not sure I get what you are saying.. You can't do anything. We didn't even kill Sylvanas...she is now in a weakened state though. And here is the choice for Tyrande. Will she kill Sylvanas or will she let her be and let Sylvanas aid us defeat the jailor.

    Does she want revenge for teldrassil which she has striven for for so long... Or will she let it go and save everything else.

    The entire point of my argument were a response to people saying "lol so Elune now gives her a choice but not when she could kill Sylvanas earlier?". Which is missing the point that Tyrande doesn't have the full picture to make that choice at the time thus Elune robbed her of her power.
    That's 100% what this cinematic implies. What would be the point of letting her choose between renewal of vengeance otherwise?

  13. #473
    Quote Originally Posted by eurojust View Post
    Of course that's coercion : "if you choose vengeance, it's over for ardenweald etc". That's not a choice here. Except if you're a maniac.
    but the choice is not kill sylva or help your people, its "use THIS POWER to do one or another" she can still go and kill sylvanas...

  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    I'm not sure I get what you are saying.. You can't do anything. We didn't even kill Sylvanas...she is now in a weakened state though. And here is the choice for Tyrande. Will she kill Sylvanas or will she let her be and let Sylvanas aid us defeat the jailor.

    Does she want revenge for teldrassil which she has striven for for so long... Or will she let it go and save everything else.

    The entire point of my argument were a response to people saying "lol so Elune now gives her a choice but not when she could kill Sylvanas earlier?". Which is missing the point that Tyrande doesn't have the full picture to make that choice at the earlier situation... thus Elune robbed her of her power. Which is an act of good...
    Back is not a choice.
    She can get Sylvanas's information and then kill her.

    And it is clear that she is not referring to that. She but to use the powers of the Night war to heal or to avenge herself. Otherwise it would not be any kind of choice of A or B.

  15. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    watch the video once more and LISTEN TO IT ffs...
    "IN THE WAKE OF TRAGEDY" she send the souls, literaly said after they already died she didnt intervene to take them but let them pass...
    she didnt stop sylvanas from burning the tree from the same reason she didnt help nelfs in ANY WAR... in over 10thousands years of their history, she never did help them in a war, she helped very FEW individuals, but thats it...

    and she DID NOT KNOW wtf is going on in shadowlands, she knew what winter queen told her - that ardenweald needs more souls - but thats it, winter queen didnt know more before we told her after finishing campaign...
    seriosuly, it seems to me like people ignore the story completely while playing and then complain it doesnt make sense, well ofc it doesnt if you dont pay attention...
    First : calm down.
    Second : I don't care about what Elune did previously since she's admitting that she let the genocide happens in this cinematic (btw Elune empowered the night elves, used miracles, etc. many time, go check the lore. Oh and the Nelves never got genocided before that).
    Third : She admits that she condemned her people. You do the maths on why she condemned her people.

  16. #476
    Quote Originally Posted by eurojust View Post
    That's 100% what this cinematic implies. What would be the point of letting her choose between renewal of vengeance otherwise?
    So we agree?... Seems like people may have missed the thread and my original post.
    My point is literally that Tyrande can make that choice now when she knows the full picture.

    She didn't know the full picture at the point of the defense of ardenweald... Thus she wasn't given the choice to kill Sylvanas there.
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  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    but the choice is not kill sylva or help your people, its "use THIS POWER to do one or another" she can still go and kill sylvanas...
    Then why did she offer that choice in the first place, if Tyrande is free to go get her revenge 1 sec later anyway?

  18. #478
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    ...no
    just no, theres nothing else to say about this

    she says AFTER THEY DIED she let them pass into SL instead of claiming them for her own (making them wisps or whatnot)...
    She doesn't do that, chronicle says only a couple of NE become wisps and it could be equal parts attachment to the tree magic and possibly elune.

    Destroying the tree that links NE to Azeroth is a guaranteed way to send them all through to Ardenweald.

    All we know is Elune meant to send the NE to Ardenweald to aid her sister.

    You are assuming Elune wouldn't do that, but we see that Elune probably doesn't really care as much as you think.
    Last edited by StillMcfuu; 2021-07-28 at 02:14 PM.

  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    So we agree?... Seems like people may have missed the thread and my original post.
    My point is literally that Tyrande can make that choice no when she knows the full picture.

    She didn't know the full picture at the point of the defense of ardenweald... Thus she wasn't given the choice to kill Sylvanas there. Nor could she know because Elune didn't either.
    What is the full picture? If you get your revenge, Ardenweald and plenty of souls will suffer from that?

  20. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    Back is not a choice.
    She can get Sylvanas's information and then kill her.

    And it is clear that she is not referring to that. She but to use the powers of the Night war to heal or to avenge herself. Otherwise it would not be any kind of choice of A or B.
    If you assume we only need information... We clearly need Sylvanas power and her help fighting... At least that's what I think.
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