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  1. #581
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    Yes, sorry, English is not my language.

    What I'm going to. For me there are two options:
    1 Or Elune killed them as Wisp.
    2 O Elune didn't let life go beyond where they had to go and instead sent them to SL.

    If it becomes the second. So the Kaldorei don't really care about Ardenweald. They would be fighting again for a cause that is not theirs and when they needed help they were left alone.
    (I mean it would be like a second Suramar)


    The point is that they are "functionally" the same. Since she tells you that she "condemns" them.
    I mean she did something she didn't have to do and this happened.
    No it's not? She didn't make Slyvanas do anything. She stopped them becoming wisps.

    Those are massively different.

    The difference between a doctor failing to save a person whose been stabbed and stabbing them.

  2. #582
    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    No it's not? She didn't make Slyvanas do anything. She stopped them becoming wisps.
    If Elune didn't let them become Wisp. It is like Elune did not leave to be born and killed them directly. I mean Elune denied them his second life as Wisp.

    It is still something very serious.

    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    Why exactly is Elune required to be anything different to the real life religion situation that literally affects most people on the planet?
    Are you seriously asking?
    You are also going to ask why priests have power in WoW if not in real life?
    Last edited by geco; 2021-07-29 at 02:01 PM.

  3. #583
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    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    Why dont you ask to every freaking christian, muslim etc on the planet? Theres only.... billions of them. If there is a god, he doesnt give them 'odd favours' no matter how much they worship him.

    Why exactly is Elune required to be anything different to the real life religion situation that literally affects most people on the planet?
    Unlike real-world religions, there is objective proof of Elune and the Light existing, and their involvement/meddling in the affairs of mortals happens both in real time and within living memory. 'Faith' on Azeroth, like most fantasy settings, is markedly different from faith IRL because Azerothian faith involves being able to present objective proof.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  4. #584
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    If he didn't let them become Wisp. It's like not letting you be born and I would kill them directly. I mean I denied them their second life as Wisp

    It is still something very serious.
    Yes, I'm not saying it's not serious. I'm saying it's not burning them/murder...

    Her motives are sound. She allowed her chosen people to die (over becoming wisps) to continue the Forces of Life rebirth in death.

    The only bit that's questionable is Elune not knowing about the maw situation. Which isn't an established power or anything.
    Last edited by Newname1234567890; 2021-07-29 at 02:03 PM.

  5. #585
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    The point is that they are "functionally" the same. Since she tells you that she "condemns" them.
    I mean she did something she didn't have to do and this happened.
    How is it the same thing? If they would have been sent to Ardenweald how she intended they don't destroy mortal souls in Ardenweald.

  6. #586
    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    How do people not understand this?

    She's didn't kill the Night Elves she just let thier souls pass into the Shadowlands....
    She didn't kill them, but she effectively 'unchose' them. She effectively sacrificed their afterlife to give her sister some juice.

    Since she accidentally sent their eternal souls to be destroyed or converted by Zovaal, she effectively 'super killed' them or sent them into eternal slavery.

    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    Not sure why people think Elune is omnipotent, omnipresent or omniscient....

    Apperetnly he can't instantly know what's happening in the Shadowlands.
    Her sister said she was low on juice, in a universe where billions of souls are being funneled into the SL daily. She doesn't even reply to her sister, or inquire why something that's worked fine for eons is suddenly an issue. She just decides to send off thousands of her 'chosen people' as some energy and consider the matter solved.

  7. #587
    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    Yes, I'm not saying it's not serious. I'm saying it's not burning them...

    Her motives are sound. She allowed her chosen people to die to continue the Forces of Life to continue to be reborn in depth.
    I understand.
    It's not really clear what Elune did.
    There are many hints that Elune could have saved them. Even Sylvanas says it at BFA.

    But really the two (three) options in my case generate the same reaction.

    I mean I should say that Elune sacrificed the Kaldorei. As she did it, it does not matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    How is it the same thing? If they would have been sent to Ardenweald how she intended they don't destroy mortal souls in Ardenweald.
    My point is. Where would they normally go?
    They are going to be drums to Ardenweald instead of going to the afterlife where they should have gone.
    And he even forces Tyrande to put aside Justice's quest to save Ardenweald.

    In other words, the Kaldorei do not earn anything, they are still on the verge of a collapse and even so they are forced to go to save other people. And he is already obliged.
    Last edited by geco; 2021-07-29 at 02:10 PM.

  8. #588
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    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    Why dont you ask to every freaking christian, muslim etc on the planet? Theres only.... billions of them. If there is a god, he doesnt give them 'odd favours' no matter how much they worship him.

    Why exactly is Elune required to be anything different to the real life religion situation that literally affects most people on the planet?
    First up, this is a fantasy setting, lets not have a poke at those who believe in a god. I'm pretty sure some them will come back with instances they believe God has aided them but that's another kettle of fish.

    Historically, Elune has intervened on behalf of Tyrande I think someone listed a few pages back things she's done. There were comments from NPCs that 'Elune had abandoned them'. Clearly, the Night Elves expected some sort of protection from their Goddess. Whether or not she should have intervened is more or less a moot point. I'm arguing that they expected her to intervene

  9. #589
    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    She didn't kill them, but she effectively 'unchose' them. She effectively sacrificed their afterlife to give her sister some juice.

    Since she accidentally sent their eternal souls to be destroyed or converted by Zovaal, she effectively 'super killed' them or sent them into eternal slavery.



    Her sister said she was low on juice, in a universe where billions of souls are being funneled into the SL daily. She doesn't even reply to her sister, or inquire why something that's worked fine for eons is suddenly an issue. She just decides to send off thousands of her 'chosen people' as some energy and consider the matter solved.
    Right. So the issue is where Elunes powers start and end. She can "hear" the Shadowlands but can't seem to fully comprehend or see them, atleast if she doesn't have a vessel present.

    Which as far as I'm concerned we've never had any reason to assume she can directly interfere with the Shadowlands.

    So Blizzard are establishing a boundary.

  10. #590
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    we havent seen many examples but id say shes been given a fair bit. for example. the blast she killed saurfang with. ppl said "they have never seen that kind of magic before". we just havent seen her use much of it, outside in cinematic or story form. However. In her fight she literally does tear shit apart. Id wager a guess that is not her banshee powers given thanks to frostmourne raising her, but the Jailer.

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    right? he saved his people!
    tazdingo!!!

  11. #591
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    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    Why dont you ask to every freaking christian, muslim etc on the planet?
    you are comparing apples to oranges.
    Elune isn't an omnipotent god that created everything for whatever purpose they see fit.

    Elune is just one goddess out of many.

    What makes more sense is if she just isn't able to influence reality to such an extent as to save them.
    Which would go in line with how she has been portrayed till now.

    Except for taking in Ysera, we have never seen her take any direct action on her own, she was always invoked either through ritual or prayer.
    And even in Yseras case, that happened on Elunes own temple grounds with Ysera crying out to her at the end.


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  12. #592
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    I understand.
    It's not really clear what Elune did.
    There are many hints that Elune could have saved them. Even Sylvanas says it at BFA.

    But really the two (three) options in my case generate the same reaction.

    I mean I should say that Elune sacrificed the Kaldorei. As she did it, it does not matter.


    My point is. Where would they normally go?
    They are going to be drums to Ardenweald instead of going to the afterlife where they should have gone.
    And he even forces Tyrande to put aside Justice's quest to save Ardenweald.

    In other words, the Kaldorei do not earn anything, they are still on the verge of a collapse and even so they are forced to go to save other people. And he is already obliged.
    I mean it's pretty clear what she did. She allowed them to die in an attempt to continue the Forces of Life resurrection cycle. What she didn't do is tell Slyvanas to burn the tree. Which I can stress this enough is in no way the same as killing them.

    The issue with her plan was purely a lack on Intel on the happenings of the Shadowlands. Which we have no reason to assume she would know/be able to know. Beyond that she can "hear" them.

  13. #593
    Quote Originally Posted by Smallfruitbat View Post
    Because, throughout the lore, Elune has been portrayed as a powerful deity who defends her people.
    ... no she wasnt, she literaly never helped them in any war, she helped few individuals - like she saved Tyrande in war of ancients, and didnt help AT ALL to thousands of nelfs being slaughtered...

  14. #594
    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    Right. So the issue is where Elunes powers start and end. She can "hear" the Shadowlands but can't seem to fully comprehend or see them, atleast if she doesn't have a vessel present.

    Which as far as I'm concerned we've never had any reason to assume she can directly interfere with the Shadowlands.

    So Blizzard are establishing a boundary.
    I'm fine with her having no ability to directly influence the shadowlands. Though in a way she does actually have interference powers since she can apparenty make souls into wisps or into another afterlife normally. If 'sending them to the shadowlands' does not mean she killed them directly, it means that after they died she diverted them there from wherever they normally go.

    Even if she can't properly see the shadowlands, it seems odd that the reply to a call for help is not to answer the call, but just throw them some more meat. Like what, did she assume that ardenweald just wasn't getting enough juice because not enough animals and druids were dieing across the entire multiverse? Is this a normal thing for elune to do?

    It just seems odd that her solution to a shipping issue is to apparently just ship more things.

  15. #595
    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    I mean it's pretty clear what she did. She allowed them to die in an attempt to continue the Forces of Life resurrection cycle. What she didn't do is tell Slyvanas to burn the tree. Which I can stress this enough is in no way the same as killing them.

    The issue with her plan was purely a lack on Intel on the happenings of the Shadowlands. Which we have no reason to assume she would know/be able to know. Beyond that she can "hear" them.
    That would be what there are doubts. It's how Elune "did that".
    Personally, I believe that Elune could have prevented or delayed the burning and did not.

    But I don't think anyone believes that Elune controlled Sylvanas and made her burn the tree or similar.

  16. #596
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    Let's avoid discussing real-world religions and religious practices and focus on Elune and the fictional institutions of Warcraft.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  17. #597
    Seeing the replies in this thread, shows the big issue with WoW. Blizzard is writing a story for people who dont or refuse to understand the story. First of all, Elune is not omnipotent. She doesnt know everything. Her and the Winter Queen are 2 sides of a coin, does the Winter Queen know everything? No. Also, Elune, like a lot of god-like beings, doesnt directly interfere with the actions of mortals.

    She is bound to the cycle of life and death like every other being in existence. To prevent the death of the Night Elves would be a violation of nature itself. She took the opportunity of all those Night Elves dying to send them right to Ardenweald so they could be at peace and fuel the place with anima. She did not know that the Maw was consuming everything. Not even the denizens of the Shadowlands knew that. When the Eternal ones meet at the start of the expansion, Kyrestia asked how the Maw suddenly grew in power. These are powerful immortal beings, not omniscient gods.

    Elune knew there was an anima drought in Ardenweald because of the cries for aid she got, but that doesnt mean "zomg everythings going to the Maw". There could be a drought for hundreds of reasons. If the Arbitor doesnt send enough souls there because not enough nature bound beings die, then there would be a drought. If too many Devourers show up and dont get contained, there's going to be a drought.

    The drought did not happen because all souls are going to the Maw, it happened because Denathrius stole all the anima that was available to send it to the Maw. Without that, the realms would have had a lot of anima for a decent amount of time.

    Wow's writing is not much different than any other fantasy story. Everything in the game makes sense if you take more than a second to understand it, rather than bitch about it.
    If what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Then I should be a god by now.

  18. #598
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    I understand.
    It's not really clear what Elune did.
    There are many hints that Elune could have saved them. Even Sylvanas says it at BFA.
    She never says that, she only comments that Elune takes some action before she burned the Tree. (She saved Malfurion)

    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    I understand.
    It's not really clear what Elune did.
    There are many hints that Elune could have saved them. Even Sylvanas says it at BFA.

    But really the two (three) options in my case generate the same reaction.

    I mean I should say that Elune sacrificed the Kaldorei. As she did it, it does not matter.
    I can refer back to my long post here but in short: she did not sacrifice her people. Sending the souls directly to Ardenweald did not doom these souls at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    My point is. Where would they normally go?
    They are going to be drums to Ardenweald instead of going to the afterlife where they should have gone.
    And he even forces Tyrande to put aside Justice's quest to save Ardenweald.
    We don't know, maybe they usually go into Ardenweald or some of the other covenants when they don't turn into wisps.

    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    In other words, the Kaldorei do not earn anything, they are still on the verge of a collapse and even so they are forced to go to save other people. And he is already obliged.
    No, Tyrande is not forced she has the choice for either renewal & vengeance. The renewal is actually more about the Kaldorei which is pretty clear from late BfA conversations and ones you see after the cinematic. They even want to give the Night Elfs souls their new spring (which might be getting reborn or rezzed)


    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    I mean it's pretty clear what she did. She allowed them to die in an attempt to continue the Forces of Life resurrection cycle. What she didn't do is tell Slyvanas to burn the tree. Which I can stress this enough is in no way the same as killing them.

    The issue with her plan was purely a lack on Intel on the happenings of the Shadowlands. Which we have no reason to assume she would know/be able to know. Beyond that she can "hear" them.
    Even that is not true, she never said that she allowed them to die. Why or if Elune could have stopped the burning is unexplained.
    Last edited by Hellspawn; 2021-07-29 at 02:24 PM.

  19. #599
    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    I'm fine with her having no ability to directly influence the shadowlands. Though in a way she does actually have interference powers since she can apparenty make souls into wisps or into another afterlife normally. If 'sending them to the shadowlands' does not mean she killed them directly, it means that after they died she diverted them there from wherever they normally go.

    Even if she can't properly see the shadowlands, it seems odd that the reply to a call for help is not to answer the call, but just throw them some more meat. Like what, did she assume that ardenweald just wasn't getting enough juice because not enough animals and druids were dieing across the entire multiverse? Is this a normal thing for elune to do?

    It just seems odd that her solution to a shipping issue is to apparently just ship more things.
    Presumably she can prevent souls leaving the material plane. Which makes sense with the available information.

    Counter point. You're in a foreign country. You hear someone cry out, you don't know the language or where it's coming from. There's a huge gap between hearing and total comprehension of a situation.

    Your a god who's domain might stretch across a billion worlds. You know your sister is crying for help and you don't know why, plus it's beyond your ability to check (since you've never shown that ability). But you know that all things in the Shadowlands runs off mortal souls . You see a chance to try and potnenally save your sister, one of your people's are facing a crisis. You have limited power to directly interfere since after all the Night Elves have been beaten numerous times and you haven't swooped in to save them. Seeing the innvertable coming you monopolies the crisis and allow the souls you'd normally turn into wisps into the Shadowlands to try and help your sister.

    To me that make perfect sense

  20. #600
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post

    I can refer back to my long post here but in short: she did not sacrifice her people. Sending the souls directly to Ardenweald did not doom these souls at all.


    We don't know, maybe they usually go into Ardenweald or some of the other covenants when they don't turn into wisps.
    Under that Logic Elune did not condemn them.
    Besides all the Covenants were "corrupt". So if Elune made everyone go to Ardenweald. Elune would not have condemned them because the other pacts would be the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    No, Tyrande is not forced she has the choice for either renewal & vengeance. The renewal is actually more about the Kaldorei which is pretty clear from late BfA conversations and ones you see after the cinematic. They even want to give the Night Elfs souls their new spring (which might be getting reborn or rezzed)
    I do not think so. It is another "wait and see" from Blizzard that for now ends in nothing.
    But you're right that we haven't seen what it is yet. But they shouldn't have gone to Ardenweald. In truth "Renewal" is Tyrande correcting Elune's mistake.

    PD: But being that again they tell us "I'll tell you later" it sounds like "Let's have no idea"

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