Employee Response to Bobby Kotick, Additional Information on Cosby Suite

[Ezzet]

I don't know why people keep trying to witch hunt greg, Like he commit the things in the accusations himself

People keep making absurd claims that he "definetily" knew what happened, like what? or he is wrong by not knowing too? then we have to fire all of blizzard because everyone should know what happened and never did anything until now?

It would not surprise me if people in those walk outs commit harassment or did a blind eye before. Or worse, they should have know what happened there and never take any action, we should witch hunt then too right? come on.

Thats how the world works now, people love to witchhunt, Greg has no allegations against him, even one of the victims said that she actually think Greg knew nothing and was just a normal nice guy. According to the mob Greg should have known and singlehandly stopped everything alone, there is no way according to them that he was unaware of what was happening.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Kinda too late for me to go in-depth, but from the first few pages, aside from one self-report survey indicating actual discrimination, this article uses "wage gap" in the mostly meaningless manner of comparing all men to all women and going about 77, 83 or whatever cents on a dollar. Which, while having various interesting social connotations, is not particularly relevant to the narrow meaning of wage gap as women being discriminated against by earning less than their co-workers for the same job that was the point of @zorkuus' posts in question.

I didn't see a mention of the qualifier of, essentially, "same job, same pay", at least with the short back-and-forth between him and @Valkyrst (though I could have missed it). I typically assume that broader definitions are being used when discussing average working hours and pointing to data points like overtime, the latter especially given many high paying jobs (such as software developers/engineers) that can have huge pay discrepancies don't typically apply for this, usually due to exemption. If they were referring to a specific definition, that's my bad.

And as DoL itself mentioned in the very next paragraph (and also in the one preceding it a bit), the list of factors they adjusted for is not exhaustive and they simply can't measure it properly.

So I understand what you're getting at, there are flaws that are induced simply due to data not having existed at the time and they've had to make assumptions based on cross-sectional data, but it's as accurate an estimate as you will get from the government. While a couple of fringe benefits were not accounted for due to the data not existing, the majority were either through using the aforementioned cross-sectional data or by reference to peer-reviewed papers. However, even if we wanted to disregard the author's opinion and state that CONSAD did not have the data required to make the conclusion they did, which was that the wage gap can be attributed to overt discrimination against women, we would still be left with a problem: where is the research that explains the remaining gap?

This might seem a bit circular, as I could understand how this could appear to be the textual form of the picture where two Spider-men are pointing at each other, but it's an important question. If the case was that the entirety of the gap was explainable, and there existed well reviewed sources of information showing this, we would have some set of well-reviewed papers that could be pointed to that explain the gap readily available and there likely would not be an open discussion about the wage gap anymore. I'm open to reading papers and research that claim to explain the wage gap, but the problem is that we currently have papers that show a gap exists, albeit missing some data points or having to make assumptions based on previous research (i.e.: they're not perfect, but no research in social science is), but that cannot then be invalidated by defaulting to "what if"-style questions. If the factors mentioned could negate the adjusted wage gap, follow-up studies would exist to try and explain those factors in whole or in isolation (such as looking at potential discrimination in company healthcare policies).

Let me know if I'm talking in circles at any point, 48 hours in is not a good point to be trying to write paragraphs.

[Eapoe]

Thats how the world works now, people love to witchhunt, Greg has no allegations against him, even one of the victims said that she actually think Greg knew nothing and was just a normal nice guy. According to the mob Greg should have known and singlehandly stopped everything alone, there is no way according to them that he was unaware of what was happening.

Yet now we have a picture circulating that people have said Greg is in where they’re all holding a picture of Cosby in the “Cosby suite.”
He also was part of a group text about bringing women back to the room.
I’m not saying he was someone who committed some of the problems, but to say he knew nothing might be reaching a bit.

[The Oblivion]

Yet now we have a picture circulating that people have said Greg is in where they’re all holding a picture of Cosby in the “Cosby suite.”
He also was part of a group text about bringing women back to the room.
I’m not saying he was someone who committed some of the problems, but to say he knew nothing might be reaching a bit.

is there something wrong with dudes wanting to meet and bring chicks to hangout with? lmfao. thats not even remotely problematic and the cosby suite was well before cosby raping women was main stream news to most people.

[User517849]

The problem is that the Wage Gap is a foregone conclusion, we already know that it exists in the West (esp. the Americas; refer to Pew Research). At the current time what is up for debate is the amount, as parity has not yet been reached. I believe the U.S. dept. of labor also published a report in which argued that the wage gap was as low as 4-6%, though I don't have a link to that one as it has been a while since I talked about the wage gap.

That said, the wage gap is an especially difficult conversation to have. What seems to always happen is that one side becomes irate due to emotional investment in the issue (i.e.: believing that the cause of the wage gap and arguments about it are due to intentional discrimination than implicit bias or ignorance), and the other side will put forward arguments that are only plausible explanations to laypersons (i.e.: people who sit and argue that not all factors are accounted for, ignoring the fact that it's people's job to account for whatever factors could impact studies done on employee wages).

** EDIT **
I believe this is the report, quoted the relevant section to what I was stating, though will have the full document linked below:

- Source

Even an Uber study, which was basically studying an *algorithm* that would be nearly impossible to have bias because it's based purely on performance found a pay gap between men and women of 7%.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/avivahw...h=123ef44ab555

Where: 20% is due to where people choose to drive (routes/neighborhoods).

Experience: 30% is due to experience. More experienced Uber drivers make more. N.B. There is a significant gender turnover gap at Uber, over a six-month period, 60% of men quit, 76% of women

Speed: 50% was due to speed, they claim that men drive slightly faster, so complete more trips per hour. N.B. in the study, speed = “distance divided by time on the trip in a given driver-hour." This measures efficiency, not speed. It could be more dependent on route choice than driving speed, a skill developed through experience, see above.

[Ezzet]

Yet now we have a picture circulating that people have said Greg is in where they’re all holding a picture of Cosby in the “Cosby suite.”
He also was part of a group text about bringing women back to the room.
I’m not saying he was someone who committed some of the problems, but to say he knew nothing might be reaching a bit.

Yeah? A picture taking 2013, 1 YEAR before Cosby became a worldwide known Rapist. And that they brought women to that room, yeah? Is that in any way illegal? No.
And again, one of the victims themself litterly said on twitter that she thinks Greg is very nice guy but then you also have to remember that these guys were all friends. Do you go around thinking if any of your friend is a rapist or even a murderer? I highly doubt you do because we see people we have known for years and count as friends in a different light and can become blindsided.
'
I am not defend any of the accused but Greg isn't being accused but he is taking so much hate right now for just knowing Alex, you don't think that's overkill? He even admits his fault and tries.

[User517849]

Cosby was still doing graduation speeches in 2013 and 2014.

https://onmilwaukee.com/articles/billcosbymarquette

https://www.phillymag.com/news/2014/...otton-picking/

But the most bizarre thing is in DFEH's indictment:

https://imgur.com/g4IdEr3

It states that women gave the suite the name. Did Alex, upon hearing that they were calling him Cosby (for the rape allegation reasons) then go out and get a giant Cosby picture?

Alex seems pretty smart, that would've been a fairly good way to use the Cosby criticism as a smoke screen of "it's because of this hilarious Cosby picture I got".

[Magical Mudcrab]

Even an Uber study, which was basically studying an *algorithm* that would be nearly impossible to have bias because it's based purely on performance found a pay gap between men and women of 7%.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/avivahw...h=123ef44ab555

OK, but these aren't the same thing. The deviation noted in the article can be explained away by driver behaviors because, well, payment is dependent solely on driver behaviors. This is different than total benefits as determined by humans in a typical corporate structure, which includes wages as well as additional factors that need accounted for like occupation, work experience, etc., including possible fringe benefits; quantitative factors that determine someone's worth to an employer and provide a better picture of all benefits related to the job. It also doesn't have the same issues regarding implicit bias that would be found in promotions or wage increases as, from what I'm aware, Uber is almost totally automated.

However, that's not to say that automated systems cannot have bias. Examples of such systems are Amazon's experimental recruitment AI having anti-female bias and some facial recognition software having a history of misidentifying black people. Obviously this isn't the fault of the ML algorithms used, rather it's the fault of the individuals who trained the algorithms in such a way that introduced the bias (i.e.: if a sample of 100 images could enable an AI to reliably distinguish people's faces and 95 of the images provided are of white people and 5 are of black people, the resulting algorithm will only be able to accurately identify white faces).

[Scathan]

Yeah. All those workplace jokes about white dudes. However do you get through the day? Always.. You know... Being so incredibly marginalized with all of your power and privilege?

Dude, you're the one coming in here with all the empathy of a potato and spouting the latest talking points you saw on late night Fox news. Maybe you should consider expanding your horizons to more than your sheer alphaness and try growing up yourself.

Hello, restaurant industry worker here. White dudes get made fun of all the time for being white.

Power and privilege is relative and not confined to any race or sex, no matter what you want to believe

[User517849]

OK, but these aren't the same thing. The deviation noted in the article can be explained away by driver behaviors because, well, payment is dependent solely on driver behaviors. This is different than total benefits as determined by humans in a typical corporate structure, which includes wages as well as additional factors that need accounted for like occupation, work experience, etc., including possible fringe benefits; quantitative factors that determine someone's worth to an employer and provide a better picture of all benefits related to the job. It also doesn't have the same issues regarding implicit bias that would be found in promotions or wage increases as, from what I'm aware, Uber is almost totally automated.

However, that's not to say that automated systems cannot have bias. Examples of such systems are Amazon's experimental recruitment AI having anti-female bias and some facial recognition software having a history of misidentifying black people. Obviously this isn't the fault of the ML algorithms used, rather it's the fault of the individuals who trained the algorithms in such a way that introduced the bias (i.e.: if a sample of 100 images could enable an AI to reliably distinguish people's faces and 95 of the images provided are of white people and 5 are of black people, the resulting algorithm will only be able to accurately identify white faces).

The purpose of the study was in a completely merit based system, would there be any pay difference? I believe the original Stanford researchers expected *not* to find one and when they found one they dug into *why*.

It shouldn't have any bias because it's based on performance (how many rides can you do per hour) which is why it was surprising to find a pay gap.

Yes, I'm aware bias can exist, but I don't think Uber has any motivation to be biased. They want the drivers to do as many rides as possible from an efficiency standpoint.

At the end, the writer does a lot of hedging about how it doesn't value safety, but, most companies don't value safety, especially if the fine for being reckless is less than they made from being reckless.

That said, if male Uber drivers were constantly getting into car crashes, they'd earn less than the females, but male Uber drivers aren't constantly getting into crashes.

[Mojo03]

Cosby was still doing graduation speeches in 2013 and 2014.

https://onmilwaukee.com/articles/billcosbymarquette

https://www.phillymag.com/news/2014/...otton-picking/

But the most bizarre thing is in DFEH's indictment:

https://imgur.com/g4IdEr3

It states that women gave the suite the name. Did Alex, upon hearing that they were calling him Cosby (for the rape allegation reasons) then go out and get a giant Cosby picture?

Alex seems pretty smart, that would've been a fairly good way to use the Cosby criticism as a smoke screen of "it's because of this hilarious Cosby picture I got".

Yup, it's looking undeniably clear at this point that Bloomberg and DFEH blatantly mislead and spread misinformation about some big things.

I can't imagine it wasn't specifically designed to do that or that they won't get sued for it.

If you try to inform people you're often just dismissed and viewed as either a conspiracy theorist or someone that's an awful human being.

This whole thing is so bonkers.

Sadly.

[Magical Mudcrab]

The purpose of the study was in a completely merit based system, would there be any pay difference? I believe the original Stanford researchers expected *not* to find one and when they found one they dug into *why*.

I'm not quite following what you're trying to get at, all studies on the gender wage gap dig into why it exists. That the gap could be explained in the case of Uber, which is basically a system in which the only metrics for pay are quantitative metrics related to rides given, is not applicable anywhere else.

[User517849]

I'm not quite following what you're trying to get at, all studies on the gender wage gap dig into why it exists. That the gap could be explained in the case of Uber, which is basically a system in which the only metrics for pay are quantitative metrics related to rides given, is not applicable anywhere else.

I disagree, I think it at least shows that part of the pay gap is possibly due to men being willing to take more risks. If you remove where and experience, you'd expect roughly 3.5% to be due to risk.

My point was that they expected to find no pay difference because there theoretically shouldn't be one in algorithmically given work. Especially if you operate under the assumption that men or women are equally skilled at driving from point A to point B.

- - - Updated - - -

Yup, it's looking undeniably clear at this point that Bloomberg and DFEH blatantly mislead and spread misinformation about some big things.

I can't imagine it wasn't specifically designed to do that or that they won't get sued for it.

If you try to inform people you're often just dismissed and viewed as either a conspiracy theorist or someone that's an awful human being.

This whole thing is so bonkers.

Sadly.

Bizarrely, either the DFEH is completely wrong on that point or Alex was using it as cover and everyone else went along with it unknowingly.

[Trbn]

I'm sure that someone at Blizzard knows this but they are missing a trick if they don't take this opportunity, especially since most office personnel have been away for a very long time, to remake their culture and be a leader in this. Remaking a corporate culture is hard but not impossible. It often requires that some who refuse to change be fired but the effect over the long run is to have a better, more focused workforce.
.

I guess activision itself doesn't agree with you https://twitter.com/JDespland/status...752463361?s=20

[Magical Mudcrab]

I disagree, I think it at least shows that part of the pay gap is possibly due to men being willing to take more risks. If you remove where and experience, you'd expect roughly 3.5% to be due to risk.

My point was that they expected to find no pay difference because there theoretically shouldn't be one in algorithmically given work. Especially if you operate under the assumption that men or women are equally skilled at driving from point A to point B.

So just as a forward, what I'm about to say isn't meant to be insulting: as a layperson, any factor you could consider has likely already been considered by a professional. When they conduct these studies it's not a simple univariate analysis that hyper-focuses on a single factor and tries to measure its effects, instead they're multivariate and contain complex rationales using a mix of both cross-sectional (i.e.: essentially the results of a single study) and longitudinal (i.e.: essentially sets of cross-sectional results on the same data points, carried out over time) data. These studies are complex, they are comprehensive and simple factors like hours worked (incl. overtime) will be taken into account if relevant for that study.

The reason why I say the Uber article was not broadly applicable is because the Uber findings aren't even that surprising. The idea that a system that merits long working hours and speeding would result in men earning more, who work more hours on average and are more likely to speed (which is one of the reasons why men also get in more car accidents) is not new information, it's just Uber covering for themselves to avoid having their payment practices called sexist. Moreover, their algorithm is basically a closed system (i.e.: the only relevant factors are quantitative metrics provided by the application). This is not comparable with the real world, which is realistically more of an open system and is prone to tampering due to things like implicit bias. Also, just to clarify, the problem isn't the gap, it's an unexplainable gap, which is why Uber's results aren't interesting while those found by studies that are more broadly applicable are.

[infinit]

Study after study has established that transparency on payscales yields greater productivity and helps prevent pay bias against POCs and women. Not sure why you're so vehemently against it. And before you try the "it's none of their business what I make" defense, I'll remind you that most employee tax information at a publicly traded company is readily available through a simple investigation and thus there is truly no such thing as privacy in pay to begin with.

what do you mean "PoC"? on average Asians earn more then Whites.....

and the pay gap between women and men has been debunked a thousand times over, one of the things it literally does not includes hours worked, men work on average 5hrs more per week..

hell google found it was underpaying men compared to women after women demanded the wage gap be narrowed.

[Femininity]

what do you mean "PoC"? on average Asians earn more then Whites.....

and the pay gap between women and men has been debunked a thousand times over, one of the things it literally does not includes hours worked, men work on average 5hrs more per week..

hell google found it was underpaying men compared to women after women demanded the wage gap be narrowed.

Shhh don't take my one piece of leverage in salary negotiations away.

[Timester]

"They didn't knew about Cosby!" "It's just bro chat jokes!"

It doesn't matter. It's about a sexual predator and his enablers, it's about what happened inside that suite.

Fact, Alex Afrasiabi is the only one mentioned on the lawsuit. Fact, Alex Afrasiabi was fired from Blizzard because of sexual harassment. Fact, all those men on the picture helped organizing the suite and knew about it.

[Mic_128]

And I would rather have a Chinese like authoritative control over social media than to have uncontrolled witch hunters ruining people's lives just for social media clout.

You do realise that would include people being disappeared by the government, when calling out actual abuses?

[MoanaLisa]

Considering they called themselves the "BlizzCon Cosby Crew", isn't it very likely that "Cos approved" would just mean either "approved by the Blizzcon Cosby crew" or "approved by/for the 'Cosby Suite'?

In the group chat, after a message that one is at the bar, another replies "Come up to the cos". Seems to me "cos" is just a diminuitive they used to refer to the suite and/or their group.

I do hope the picture of the girls on the bed with one apparently fondling the breast of another while the chat transcript cheered them on comes out. If it does I'll look forward to your justification for that. I do hope they fuzz out the faces of the women to protect their privacy. That's the only reason I can think of for why Kotaku didn't publish the photo with their story. I'm going to assume it exists. If it does it will certainly become a piece of evidence in the lawsuit.