I want WC3 night elves and pre-sundering night elves

[ravenmoon]

Actively engaged in night elf content and activity - all the bits they enticed us with and described in their books and itnroduced in their game, yes, both of them, together, not a pale shadow or one arm or a third of it.

But I kinda get neither. AM I being too demanding? This was what I was sold in both WC3 and War of the Ancients Trilogy I bought and enjoyed. But the wow experience showed me an insipid dick limped version that were human cosy yes men (where humans should have found them a bit scary and/or otherworldy) to be pals with, preferring their Thalassian descendants who are much more like them.

Night elves have got increasing love since legion, when it seemed a different race or rather the race properly or better yet, fully unveiled for the first time in world of Warcraft since WC3 and WotA trilogy. I was delighted to see so many core themes to them from pre-sundering to long vigil icons available in Legion in our journey of the Broken Isles central and western zones (i.e. Broken shore, Suramar, Azsuna and Val'Sharah).. the expansion had all the key elements associated with night elf lore, a wlel of arcane power (nightwell) a world tree (shaldassil), a great night elf pre-sundering city (Suramar) a great night elf druidic forest (Val'sharah), it had city communities, forest communities, and all the icons - Wardens, Druids, Moonguard, Illidari demon hunters, mages , Highborne, Priestesses, even sentinels showed up in 7.1 though i felt they should have had a much bigger role.


This was balance - i had both WC3 types and pre-sundering night elf types + more... this is how you do it.


Now, I don't know what I get. WoT - finally had huntresses and night elf garb we hadn't seen since the cover box and wc3 - but not much show of night elf demon hunters, night elf mages and some of the more exotic communities in Legion.

We did get the new black moon, but why does when blizzard do something new, like blood knights, or the night warrior or dark ranger - it's like everything else is forgotten? this wasn't the case in legion, it seemed a lot more balanced, but it's like the extra care and checks vanished.


To help those who don't care about night elves understand.. it would be like
a) blizzard now only showing blood elf light users, and forgotten about the 7,000 year high elven arcane and ranger traditions - which do show up but alwyas at the background
b) It would be like blizzard now only focusing on Tauren druids or Sunwalkers, and completely ignoring the Tauren Earthmother shaman base and warrior /hunter root of the race.
c) OR Worgen only being about druids, and completely forgetting they are actually Gilnenans and have are still that with a culture, human traditions etc


I'm all for new changes in a race, but I feel in love with night elves after reading the warcraft 3 manual entry. I loved what I saw in wc3, and I loved even more their ancient utopic era where they are written to have done so well in everything despite their Queen ending it with such a horrible betrayal.


And Nazjatar - wasn't that a bit disappointing? full of night elf history, but mostly missing night elves of the present to connect past with present.

WoW started off with druid night elven focus...okay, cool, this was not really emphasised much in the race in WC3, but I noticed the female leadership and Moon Priest aspect was heavily subdued. you met them, but you leant far more about the druidic traditions than of Elune and her order, they were there, but they weren't ever seen in action nor were they at the forefront.

I hoped they would always bring back or restore a correct version of arcane and that part of their heritage, and cataclysm held such promise only to literally do no revamp for night elves (except swap the Teldrassil trees, and ruin Ashenvale some more with orcish deforestation and elemental calamity -- great.. instead Stormwind and Orgrimmar were the only cities and populaces to get visual revamps, and Lordaeron (but because flying was enabled).

The idea or hope behind this was to see both aspects of the night elves grow and flourish.

What exactly do we have now? Will we ever see anything serious again?

[Beloren]

I do n't understand this - I thought that since Legion you've really gotten both of these...

Or are you subtely complaining about having the nightborne side of night elves more visible on the Darnassians?

From WoT and BFA we've seen a lot more WC3 type night elves, in Legion you saw a lot of pre-sundering night elves via Farondis, Moonguard and Nightborne - yes even though the nightborne joined the horde, they are a full display of pre-sundering night elves.

[Tanaria]

What we need to understand is that no race has ever had each of it's "sections" showcased in a way where we'd go "gah gah" over it.


Alliance:
Humans - never seen the Stormwind Warlocks or Stormwind Hunters do anything of significance.
Dwarves - never actually seen any part of them do anything.
Night Elves - never seen Darnassus Mages or Darnassus Death Knights do anything.
Gnomes - never seen Gnome Priests or Gnome Mages do anything.
Draenei - never seen Draenei Warriors or Draenei Mages do anything
Worgen - never seen Worgen Warlocks, Worgen Priests or Worgen Warriors do anything
Void Elves - never seen Void Elf Priests or Void Elf Warriors do anything
Lightforged - never seen the Lightforged Draenei Mages do anything
Kul'Tiran - never seen Kul'Tiran Rogues, Kul'Tiran Mages or Kul'Tiran Hunters do anything
Dark Iron - see above for the Dwarves
Mechagnomes - see above for the Dwarves

Horde:
Orcs - never seen Orc Mages play a vital role
Undead - never seen Forsaken Warlocks actually play a vital role
Tauren - never seen Tauren Hunters or Tauren Priests play a vital role
Trolls - never seen Troll Warlocks or Troll Mages play a vital role
Blood Elf - never seen Blood Elf Warlocks, Blood Elf Warriors or Blood Elf Rogues play a vital role
Goblins - see above for the Dwarves
Nightborne - never seen Nightborne Warlocks, Nightborne Rogues or Nightborne Priests play a vital role
HM Tauren - only seen HM Tauren Hunters do anything.
Mag'har Orcs - only seen Mag'har Warriors do anything.
Zandalari - never seen Zandalari Mages or Zandalari Rogues do anything
Vulpera - see above for the Dwarves.

So - with this in mind, what you want for Night Elves is very unlikely to happen in one expansion - unless, we get a racial/class pride expansion, where if you play a Blood Elf Mage or Night Elf Warrior, you will feel like what you play is something great, but Blizzard will be restrained by time.

Night Elf Warriors, Rogues and Hunters will likely all go on a "Sentinel" questline. They won't get their own individual quests.
Same with Blood Elf Warriors, Rogues and Hunters - all go on a "Farstrider" questline.

Differences will be shown for Night Elf Mages and Blood Elf Mages/Warlocks as an example.
Night Elf Mages could be called to a restored Eldre'Thalas and you go on a journey with Vestia Moonspear and Magister Estulan. You go to the Ruins of Zin-Azshari, the land of Azshara, maybe uncover a San'layn plot and take one of their San'layn Blood Crystals back to Eldre'Thalas for study - something along these lines, perhaps.

Blood Elf Mages/Warlocks could do a series of quests with Grand Magister Rommath. To the ruins of Dalaran in Lordaeron, to the Netherstorm, (Blood Elf Warlocks could go on quests which would take them to Shadowmoon Valley), maybe to Suramar - something along these lines.
(I do like the idea of the Blood Elves losing the Sunwell, if it meant that the Magister questline involved Blood Elf Mage and Warlock players getting a huge Blood Crystal from Netherstorm and using it, along with the arcane-leylines across Quel'Thalas, to save their people. Blood Elf Warlocks could sneak in a few Fel Crystals from Shadowmoon Valley, where they establish themselves between the Silvermoon Sanctum and underneath the former Tailoring shop.)

The key to this is that whatever is going on within a particular races' society - the players are all actively involved in helping their race and doing quests along with the lore characters that we know and love.

[Smallfruitbat]

The idea or hope behind this was to see both aspects of the night elves grow and flourish.

What exactly do we have now? Will we ever see anything serious again?

No, thank-you! Seriously, Blizzard need to leave the Night Elves alone. There are complaints that players are sick of Elves being the centre of things. The current crop of writers seem to be unable to plot in advance and scrabble around to explain things after the fact by introducing another level of powerful cosmic beings to blame for stuff.

I think they've gone beyond the simplicity and nostalgia of what you are talking about. Go back a few years and I would have said yes, and that I wanted more depth to ALL the races but now, I shudder to think what they would do with it.

[Larodar]

Will we ever see anything serious again?

Friend I feel you but there is no hope left. At this point what could save the Night Elves is making them into a third faction on their own, with their forest allies coming back to play their roles from WC3.

[ravenmoon]

No, thank-you! Seriously, Blizzard need to leave the Night Elves alone. There are complaints that players are sick of Elves being the centre of things. The current crop of writers seem to be unable to plot in advance and scrabble around to explain things after the fact by introducing another level of powerful cosmic beings to blame for stuff.

I think they've gone beyond the simplicity and nostalgia of what you are talking about. Go back a few years and I would have said yes, and that I wanted more depth to ALL the races but now, I shudder to think what they would do with it.

the problem is that everything they are touching is ruining.. so when they come to your race, you somehow end up worse than you were.

And yet, Legion was such an improvement... it's like they thought in 7.2, ah.. we did too much detail, it's un-necessary and it's been mediocre ever since.

Look at Kul'tiras and Zandalar, they looked great, especially Zuldazar, but it felt more like a fluff piece, the detail we got in Suramar was never matched or equalled in either Boralus or Dazar'alor - furthermore, look at how Azsuna was told, with the story of the Farondis, short, powerful impactful, nothing in BFA came close.. Jaina's story was interesting, but a bit OTT? I liked it though, but no where near as much as many of the Legion stories.

[Syegfryed]

Dude, everyone want Wc3 races, there is no race in wow that is better than their counterpart in WC3

Taurens, orcs, trolls, humans, dwarves, blood elves, night elves, undeads, everything was better in wc3

[ravenmoon]

Friend I feel you but there is no hope left. At this point what could save the Night Elves is making them into a third faction on their own, with their forest allies coming back to play their roles from WC3.

My idea of the night elf faction.

4 main Groups:

The Order of Elune:
Here you see Wardens, Huntresses, also sentinels both operating in forest areas and city areas. Finally the Moon Priestess Sisterhood leaders, seen both leading sentinels but also administering as priests in city temples amongst civilian populations.

This is where you see the powerful sabers, the moon glaives, the the bows and the hot women in scanty gear, as well as full plate gear, the glaive throwers of the night elves.

Here you see the Wardens, the night magic of hiding, they are the special enforcers , police and intelligence office wing of the night elves

In the Moon Priestesses is where you see the greatest power of the priesthood in their arcane starfall storms, star explosions, moon falls, etc.

Some view the Night elves as a Matriarchal Society because of the strong presence and leadership positions that are dominated by women in both the military and martial areas. However they are not, most night elf males tend to be reclusive dedicated to magical studies in the arcane or nature or the elusive demon hunting Illidari fel wielders.

As such civil positions are often dominated by women, and to fully understand this, you would have to know the role the prominent Order of Elune has played in the destiny and life of this race. It was the Order's High Priestess as a Night Warrior that led teh mage and martial armies to the conquest of Kalimdor as they put a halt to a corruption that had consumed part of the trolls and other races. Wielding the powerful Well of Eternity in battle and great martial skill were eclipsed by a sisterhood that called on the power of the Goddess.

When the Night elven Empire fell to the hordes of demons and was turned to rubble by the ensuing sundering, it was the Priesthood led by women that led the people while most of the males turned to the magical affairs of the land and forests. While a more egalitarian balance was visible in separate city communities in places like Eldre'tahlas, Suramar, it is clear that in the main night elf community that occupied the vast forests of the north, the Order of Elune led this nation during millennia of the long vigil. And play a prominent role in the re-emerging civilization that has bandied together after the final invasion of the Legion was thrown off and their race experienced second genocidal event at the hands of horde aggressors manipulated by the Jailor from beyond the grave.

In temperament, night elf females are generally more outgoing and sociable while night elf males are more reclusive, introspective and reflective. This has somewhat altered and influenced how others perceive them and the roles they often play in society, but you'd be a full to think night elf males can't make powerful and strong warriors or night elf females cannot be powerful and cunning spell casters.

The Druids:
The great Elven forests is the setting, here is where you experience the side of the night elf culture that prefers a forest life and dwell in and are based here, they are mostly the families of druids and you have Temples of Elune (like the one in Val'sharah serving the spiritual needs of the people, in a mixed culture where some revere more the forest spiirits and wild gods, while others are dedicated to the Goddess.

Here is where you see the great walking trees, the Ancients - but you have ancients of arcane too remember, the Ancients are a race, and nature magic isn't the only thing they know, it's nature and arcane (see Eldre'thalas, see a few other night elven places ), Here you see the mobile units that aided the sentinels in the night elf campaign in WC3.

here is also where you see the Sea giants, the Faerie dragons, the chimera - because the druids know the animals, and the animals respond to them. chimera are with the druids in a way the great sabers are with the priests and night elf guards.

You see the druids of the talon, druids of the claw, druids of the wild, druids of the branch, and dream warden druids, all of them have special emphasis based on their order, the druids of the fang too and druids of the flame and nightmare are renegade factions.

The power wielded is ofc nature, but you see an explosion of emerald dream related things, and a little bit more detail of what the arcane really is to druids.. it's not anathema, it's basically the power that sustain nature and must be held and operate in balance, it is also the key to curing addiction and is a core part of night elf druidism because of their arcane origins.

The Great Elven forests are like no other forests seen on Azeroth, they cover fast areas of land and are full of magic and wonders of nature, exotic wild animals and even wild gods roam these vast and ancient woods, with creatures not seen anywhere else, some very intelligent and sentient and often the target of many a mischievous hunter. The two great forests of Ashenvale and Val'Sharah are crowned by the two world trees of Nordarssil and Shaldrassil, Golden green and silver green, where nature energy from the Emerald dream bathes these lands while the arcane energy of the Well of Eternity fuels the vibrancy of nature all over.

The tallest trees in the world are here


The Highborne (and the Nightborne):
At the heart of the night elven nation the world sees, are the great Kaldorei cities, and the biggest driving force of the restoration of thier civilization are the Highborne, who are very good at what they do, and they know it. This is the restored institution and factions that have come togehter with the Hyjal/Long vigil group no longer totally separated and isolated communities like they were in the long vigil. They mostly live in the night elven cities and towns, their homes are more bejewelled and embellished, but the architecture isn't necessarily different from other city architecture - night elf style is derived form how they built the temples for the priests and that spilt over to all sorts of buildings in city environments the Highborne are the great architects and magical wonder makers.

This group involves Shen'dralar who are like magical engineers and and wonder makers, the Moonguard who are the military mage battle group for the night elves, the Farondis who are the arcane theorists and academics and are the part of the Highborne that actually interact most with the priesthood and druidic scholars and academics, even fel, with demon hunters.

Here you see the civilization side of the night elves pretty much like Suramar, but more the Zin'Azshari style. Here you also see the display of arcane power, the use of the Well of Eternity restored, and how the Highborne are adjusting to a world where the community does not view them as super excellent.

here you will also see how different groups cope with that. The Farondis aren't phase, they are the epitome of the benevolent noble, grateful to have survived, the Darnassian Highborne are the ones that lived through the long vigil, they really understand the principles of balance and humility though they love and cherish their return to the arcane they embrace whole heartedly. The Shen'dralar have the hardest time with this , but they are motivated greatly to restore the prestige of the group and restore unrestrained love for magic - as other night elves while having affinity for it just seem a bit wary and prefer not to involve themselves if they don't have mage like talent, this is not what the Shen'dralar are use to, and they desire the days when arcane was the most influential group and they seek to restore that.

Eldre'thalas, Suramar, New Elun'dris (new night elf city in Hyjal possibly?), Zin'Azshari are the 4 great urban centres where the open heart of night elf culture and civilziation is clearly seen under beautiful moon and star lit skies. HTe magic of the leves makes the light of the stars and the moon sparkle with radiant energy, and even the buildings radiate a luminosity of moonlight and starlight, with magic everywhere.

Unlike the end of the pre-sundering era, night elven cities can be seen to host druids and ancients who tend the lushes city parks and gardens in addition to it's vibrant priest and civilian population. International embassy, military strongholds for Moonguard and the elven armies as well as the chapters for the fabled sentinels and wardens are seen in all their cities. Great academies and engine houses of magic reside here and even a building for Illidari and Ebon blade can be found in the cities that Over see the 4 principle night elven areas of Western Kalimdor, Northern Kalimdor, The Borken ISles and Risen Naz'jatar.

The Illidari Demon Hunter Night Elves:
Like Night elf mages, and druids are part of organisations like the Cenarion Circle and Kirin'tor while still being night elves and helping their people, so to we have this group, it's a bunch of night elf demon hunters bringing Illidari aid to the night elves, just like druids bring Cenarion circle aid, though the Cenarion circle isn't part of the night elves, nor are the Illidari as a faction a part of the night elves..

But as a key part of the night elven lore - (which pre-sundering arcane night elves, Priesthood of Elune night elves, Moonguard, druidism and the night elves, so to Illidan and the demon hunters are part of the racial story of this race though magecraft, druidism )

For demon hunters, you'd have their usual set up we saw in Legion,



This is what the night elf faction would contain.


If we are making a 3rd faction, i think the Nightborne would be part of the night elf faction too. their blood elf friendship can remain, but they could also be a part of the blood elf faction too.. who knows. But let's not forget they are went horde (not because of the blood elves, , but because blizzard wanted to give the horde another elven race, and then used the Nightborne connection with the blood elves to make it happen, but the bigger connection is obviously the night elves).. so the Nightborne in this situation should return back to the night elves.

[cparle87]

Dude, everyone want Wc3 races, there is no race in wow that is better than their counterpart in WC3

Taurens, orcs, trolls, humans, dwarves, blood elves, night elves, undeads, everything was better in wc3

Or they were blank canvasses for us to project what we wanted them to be onto and we were disappointed when we found out what they were really like when they were fleshed out and are upset our headcanon was contradicted.

[sighy]

Well your example a) isn't exactly correct, yes we see a bunch of Liadrin and her followers, but they're not really Blood Knights anymore just a bunch of clowns pretending to be Silver Hand, while the rest of the society is basically forgotten about.


I was a big fan of them and their concept in Warcraft 3, but in WoW they never really hit the mark for me, because of the sweeping changes and retcons that did away with the mystery and their defining characteristics, where the only thing that really stayed was superficial designs and elements. Their animosity toward mages was a solid addition, which ideologically set them in opposition of Thalassians and had interesting themes one could dive into, but no Malfurion wakes up and instantly resolves 10 000 years of persecution, for the 5 guys that still managed to survive in frontiers of Feralas despite the Kaldorei's, Demon's, Orgre's and player's best efforts...

MAybe besides humans and Orcs the Night Elves have gotten the most spotlight by far over the years, for both good and ill, but to be honest by the time Illidan oneshot the prime naaru i had well past my fill and was even pretty sick of them. Val'sharah added literally nothing new, because the plot was rehashed from Stormrage and didn't really have much of a meaningful impact past that. Illidan kind of just hogged the spotlight for a while, destroyed all the credibility Army of the Light had and stayed behind for no reason at Seat of the Pantheon, because edgy. I did genuinely like Azuna and Suramar tho.

[ravenmoon]

What we need to understand is that no race has ever had each of it's "sections" showcased in a way where we'd go "gah gah" over it.


Alliance:
Humans - never seen the Stormwind Warlocks or Stormwind Hunters do anything of significance.
Dwarves - never actually seen any part of them do anything.
Night Elves - never seen Darnassus Mages or Darnassus Death Knights do anything.
Gnomes - never seen Gnome Priests or Gnome Mages do anything.
Draenei - never seen Draenei Warriors or Draenei Mages do anything
Worgen - never seen Worgen Warlocks, Worgen Priests or Worgen Warriors do anything
Void Elves - never seen Void Elf Priests or Void Elf Warriors do anything
Lightforged - never seen the Lightforged Draenei Mages do anything
Kul'Tiran - never seen Kul'Tiran Rogues, Kul'Tiran Mages or Kul'Tiran Hunters do anything
Dark Iron - see above for the Dwarves
Mechagnomes - see above for the Dwarves

Horde:
Orcs - never seen Orc Mages play a vital role
Undead - never seen Forsaken Warlocks actually play a vital role
Tauren - never seen Tauren Hunters or Tauren Priests play a vital role
Trolls - never seen Troll Warlocks or Troll Mages play a vital role
Blood Elf - never seen Blood Elf Warlocks, Blood Elf Warriors or Blood Elf Rogues play a vital role
Goblins - see above for the Dwarves
Nightborne - never seen Nightborne Warlocks, Nightborne Rogues or Nightborne Priests play a vital role
HM Tauren - only seen HM Tauren Hunters do anything.
Mag'har Orcs - only seen Mag'har Warriors do anything.
Zandalari - never seen Zandalari Mages or Zandalari Rogues do anything
Vulpera - see above for the Dwarves.

it's not just roles but lo re, night elf mages and the arcane have extensive lore, but we saw them more than we saw night elf wardens so it varies.. it's also the quality of the presentation. And how long we see serious updates.

Blood elf rangers and Farstriders appeared in the opening area, but since then, like Moon Priestesses have almost never been seen in action yet they are a core part of their races.

So - with this in mind, what you want for Night Elves is very unlikely to happen in one expansion - unless, we get a racial/class pride expansion, where if you play a Blood Elf Mage or Night Elf Warrior, you will feel like what you play is something great, but Blizzard will be restrained by time.

Night Elf Warriors, Rogues and Hunters will likely all go on a "Sentinel" questline. They won't get their own individual quests.
Same with Blood Elf Warriors, Rogues and Hunters - all go on a "Farstrider" questline.

I think night elf warriors should be distinct from Night elf sentinels. Night elf sentinels are the Order of Elune's warrior hunter - they are not specifically full on warriors, more guerrilla fighter warrior types. Night elf warriors as a unit probably haven't been a thing since the per-sundering armies, and this is what should be restored

I like the idea of the classes being thierown unique identity.

Night elf rogues can be pushed to the warden side of things, Wardnes are liek intelilgence offiers, they guard, they police as well as hunt down dangerous like a CIs agent would, they use stealth, night powers, Elune powers etc to do these things an elite class where normal rogues are like the beginning

Differences will be shown for Night Elf Mages and Blood Elf Mages/Warlocks as an example.
Night Elf Mages could be called to a restored Eldre'Thalas and you go on a journey with Vestia Moonspear and Magister Estulan. You go to the Ruins of Zin-Azshari, the land of Azshara, maybe uncover a San'layn plot and take one of their San'layn Blood Crystals back to Eldre'Thalas for study - something along these lines, perhaps.

Blood Elf Mages/Warlocks could do a series of quests with Grand Magister Rommath. To the ruins of Dalaran in Lordaeron, to the Netherstorm, (Blood Elf Warlocks could go on quests which would take them to Shadowmoon Valley), maybe to Suramar - something along these lines.
(I do like the idea of the Blood Elves losing the Sunwell, if it meant that the Magister questline involved Blood Elf Mage and Warlock players getting a huge Blood Crystal from Netherstorm and using it, along with the arcane-leylines across Quel'Thalas, to save their people. Blood Elf Warlocks could sneak in a few Fel Crystals from Shadowmoon Valley, where they establish themselves between the Silvermoon Sanctum and underneath the former Tailoring shop.)

The key to this is that whatever is going on within a particular races' society - the players are all actively involved in helping their race and doing quests along with the lore characters that we know and love.

Night elf mages are distinct by their advanced moon and star magic influence, whereas blood elf ones have a lot of fire themes as opposed to high elf where i'ts ice or void elf where it's void. The star /moon arcane magic seem to be a theme across all their classes so it's a racial one, but being arcane, it should have a significant presence in their identity, Star Augurs (sorta like an arcane magic shaman without the totems), Star Farseers (connecting mages to priests), Astromancers, etc, you can see a good list in the Nighthold)

Quests for night elves would show how the connection between Elune and the arcane and magecraft happens, and show where the druids come into.

It's not hard.

1. Elune was discovered through the well, and this is how night elves express, magecraft is the adaptation of arcane magic discovered form the well for practical and every day purposes, whiles ot the priesthood, it's a spiritual thing, these are holy waters of the Goddess, they nourish and produce life, and they also burn her foes, they use their arcane connection to all down the magical energy that links them to the stars and the moon (mother moon, i.e. Elune), usually it isn't actually Elune that is being called just them using their knowledge and magic, but in some cases it is.. and this is one of hte subtle differences between priest and mages with star magic, Priests doo call on the Goddess' a lot more with results, while mages it is just their know how.

This initially makes priest spells more effective and powerful which is why they had greater prestige, add the night warrior to it, you can see why despite her great popularity, Azshara could never dislodge and remove the priesthood, a priesthood less arcane society was achieved in Suramar (and possibly Eldre'thalas as well ) only after the sundering because the priesthood had left.. never during Azshara's time, because they ere too powerful.

To compete (in her case) but mostly to innovate and help the people, mages used greater and greater power from the well, improving their mastery and command, able to do things themselves, without needing to call on the goddess, in time the power a mage could wield would rival that which a priest would call on unaided, though because she is a goddess, the strength Elune can lend to a priest would ultimately out class any mage because it is Elune's power plus that of the priests in addition, and the priest would know how to use the arcane too, though not in the same way as the mage and for different purposes and focuses.

The spiritualisation of magic, would be tied to the Order of Elune , the waters of the well are still sacred and the use of the Highborne to bring the demons was perhaps the greatest defilement and abomination . Yet though they were aware of the potential of the well to bring harm like demons back to their world, and would have preferred it not restored, when it was restored the waters were sacred again.


As for druidism, many druids are former Highborne, Moonguard and mages too, acutely aware of the addiction problem too, and unable to use the arcane because of the threat it posed (hence the why there was a ban they all agreed too - remember there were no druids around when the night elves on Hyjal banned the arcane, it was a decision the mages themselves took, with Malfurion in tow, many of these became druids, they retained a lot of arcane knowledge, but the focus of operation has now switched, now there was cause of preserving nature, healing it, enhancing it and protecting it's balance, there was also the balance between arcane and nature, so that the violation that took place never arose. Balance druidism is the heart of druidism, because druidism was formed from a mage centric race. Malfurion is clear knew how to use arcane magic, it wasn't druidic magic that unravelled well, and it is clear Cenarius knows too, though not in teh way perhaps a mage scholar knows it. But Malfurion would have bene born and instructed like all night elf children early on in spell usage, whether htey had the talent to become mages or not.


You would find ways to flesh this out. through quests

- - - Updated - - -

I do n't understand this - I thought that since Legion you've really gotten both of these...

Or are you subtely complaining about having the nightborne side of night elves more visible on the Darnassians?

From WoT and BFA we've seen a lot more WC3 type night elves, in Legion you saw a lot of pre-sundering night elves via Farondis, Moonguard and Nightborne - yes even though the nightborne joined the horde, they are a full display of pre-sundering night elves.

Greater detail and involvement for the race to flesh them out and make them more inovvled.

Night elves are a huge race, but for much of wow (until legion) they were passed off as wimpy forest elves on the one hand and human pals or humans with purple skin.. the richness of their lore, the mystifying Elune, the great arcane mastery and civilization, the wild scary dangerous side of druidism was just missing, and nerfed to absentee, especially the demon hunters and wardens who were almost non existent.

In fact you mostly saw just sentinels and cenarion circle druids, you didn't see Moon Priestesses do anything, nor mages, nor demon hunters, nor hunters for that matter and definitely not DKs and Wardens. THe actually preist side, teh arcane side,t he dmeon hunting side were vastly obscured was was the female warrior side from Wc3.

Also night elves were almost never involved in using the World tree, using Elune, using the Well of Eternity - and these, especially the last two are at the heart and centre of their story - yet their significances and presentation was almost zero..

it isn't till 8.1 that we actually see the Elune power side of the night elves do anything, and we g from 0 to 150 because they skip the normal display of Elune power and go straight into showing the Night warrior (essentially a new thing invented, though its goes back to before).


Since then, yes we've seen every aspect of the night elves, the pre-sundering, the arcane, the mages, the demon hunters, the fel, the nature, the erdruids, emerald dream, the sentinels, wardens, moon priestesses, power of Elune - we've seen these all.

But never together in the Darnassians, even in WoT -we only saw druids and huntresses, and then in Darkshore while they had a mage, a priestess - itw as mostly druids and sentinels, well largely sentinels - no DKs, DHs, and like no priests or mages in action. And the legion arcane hsows of the Farondis, Moonguard and Nightborne also had nothing else from the other parts working in tandem

So this is what I'm aiming for.

- - - Updated - - -

Or they were blank canvasses for us to project what we wanted them to be onto and we were disappointed when we found out what they were really like when they were fleshed out and are upset our headcanon was contradicted.

While I smiled at this, they defintiely recast, retconned, and outright nerfed a lot of races, especially the night lvesa nd ones on the alliance.

They changed a lot, they do shiny things for the introduction of the races, then dial them way down.. with few exceptions (like the blodo elves) who actually got better and better, as did the forsaken. Look at what happened to Worgen, Draenei

[Tanaria]

SNIP

Yes and you explore this by having a big focus on racial class pride.

And I know that Night Elf Warriors aren't really a big thing, but the point to this is that you can't exclude certain races and classes, but we have to also be realistic about time constraints.
Night Elf Warriors, like Blood Elf Warlocks, aren't a big thing within their societies, but they have been shown to be part of the Sentinels from time to time. Like Blood Elf Warlocks have been part of the Magisters, although they aren't as used as others.

Questlines will overlap with other classes, but the point of this is to bring racial pride to the forefront. The "classes" are part of the leveling experience.

I would rather Blood Elf Warlocks get questlines with Rommath, rather than trying to build something completely new. Rommath is still a part of how the Blood Elven Warlocks came to be, but you could bring in Shinfel Blightsworn or Aeda Brightdawn and do some side quests with them...perhaps take some Fel Crystals from Shadowmoon Valley and put them underneath Keleen's shop.

And we're working with the core groups of races. So with Humans, we aren't dealing with Arathi Humans - we're talking about Stormwind Alliance Humans. Likewise, with Blood Elves - we aren't talking about neutral Sunreaver Blood Elves of Dalaran, we're talking about the Silvermoon Horde Blood Elves.
Time will always be against big companies and not everyone will get something for their own designated race and class, but the point is to give as much as you can.

That will mean that lesser known areas will have to be grouped with a major area. In this case, Night Elf Warriors and Rogues will share in the "Sentinel" questline. Likely will have some Wardens involved, but the core theme will be "Sentinels."
Blood Elf Warlocks will have to share in the "Magister" questlines with Rommath, but might get some extra bits with some recent Blood Elf Warlock characters.

The focus of Night Elf Mages will be where they started (Zin-Azshari), a Highborne-like zone that carries reference (Azshara, Azsuna, Crystalsong Forest) and then relates back to where they came from, in the main (Feralas - Eldre'Thalas.) The Shen'dralar will be the leading face behind this as they are the "Alliance Highborne" and the only known Highborne to still be around, in their original forms. Now, whether you like Eldre'Thalas or Suramar isn't relevant because the story has been told and that is, the Night Elf Mage origins, are part of Eldre'Thalas. Yes - players will go on that journey with Estulan and Vestia (Highborne and none-Highborne Magi) to see where it all started and all that, but the ties will take them back to Eldre'Thalas.

[Aucald]

With the benefit of hindsight, I think WoW would've been better served from a worldbuilding standpoint if the WC3 factions had been kept and expanded upon in WoW. You would've had the Night Elves as their own faction (including races like Dryads, Keepers, giants, and so forth), the Alliance as their own faction, the Horde, and the Forsaken in place of the Scourge. You could've easily taken some of the Scourge remnants in WPL/EPL and folded them into the Forsaken to beef up their numbers and make them competitive with the other three. How events would've played out given the change in the foundational factions is anyone's guess, but I think a four-part faction conflict and/or existing friction would give you a lot more dynamic opportunities in the narrative than the two-way and repeating issues with the Horde vs. Alliance conflict. In one expansion, you could have a Night Elf vs. Horde conflict (perhaps over expansion into kaldorei lands), then it could be Horde vs. Alliance. The Forsaken could fight the Alliance in one part and tangle with the Night Elves in another. The Night Elves might also take issue with an Alliance presence too close to their forests, etc. Add to that the various races introduced during WoW's timeline (the Goblins, the Worgen, Blood Elves, and Draenei) and who they may choose to join and you have got a lot of room for added tension, drama, and conflict set-pieces.

[ravenmoon]

@Tanaria , but you can bring other groups into it, if they would do a race expansion, it is unlikely they'd focus on every race and allied race, they'd likely combine

So humans would actually involve Stormwind humans, Gilneans and Kul'tirans rather than doing 3 separate ones.

IT is also likely you will get blood elves, high elves, sunreavers and void elves all together in the story.

There would be overlap ofc, part of the human story would have dwarves and high elves and void elves, as i is also the core alliance story, while there will be segments of the Thalassian story where only blood elves are involved.

I also feel, they'd probably rope more of the outside groups into the core groups, because the main playable race is supposedly the forerunner group and they'd want to explore not just local politics, but origins like the Vrykul and core factional groups like Arathor, Lordaeron in the story.

Can you imagine a human story without Lordaeron or Arathor is leaving a huge chunk out, unless you tell that side of the story via the Forsaken because they are another major race. But I guess it depends on what you want the Forsaken story to tell

- - - Updated - - -

With the benefit of hindsight, I think WoW would've been better served from a worldbuilding standpoint if the WC3 factions had been kept and expanded upon in WoW. You would've had the Night Elves as their own faction (including races like Dryads, Keepers, giants, and so forth), the Alliance as their own faction, the Horde, and the Forsaken in place of the Scourge. You could've easily taken some of the Scourge remnants in WPL/EPL and folded them into the Forsaken to beef up their numbers and make them competitive with the other three. How events would've played out given the change in the foundational factions is anyone's guess, but I think a four-part faction conflict and/or existing friction would give you a lot more dynamic opportunities in the narrative than the two-way and repeating issues with the Horde vs. Alliance conflict. In one expansion, you could have a Night Elf vs. Horde conflict (perhaps over expansion into kaldorei lands), then it could be Horde vs. Alliance. The Forsaken could fight the Alliance in one part and tangle with the Night Elves in another. The Night Elves might also take issue with an Alliance presence too close to their forests, etc. Add to that the various races introduced during WoW's timeline (the Goblins, the Worgen, Blood Elves, and Draenei) and who they may choose to join and you have got a lot of room for added tension, drama, and conflict set-pieces.

Without a doubt.

I think the dynamic would have looked very different. I am convinced night elves' poor development was because of the two faction system and needing to beef up horde numbers meant prioritising horde development.

With 4 factions instead, the number instability would not have been so lopsided, and even if you would have needed to prioritise the horde, because the night elves were a main faction, they would have gotten development regardless rather than token involvements.

Player grouping wise, I understand how dividing the playerbase by 4 would have been problematic, but how did ESO manage it? Some restrictions would have actually made sense to not be there, while others only imposed temporarily in certain situations where it made sense to, so you did have a strong sense of belonging to your faction, while mitigating the effects of number imbalances.

[Tanaria]

@Tanaria , but youc an bring other groups into it, if they would do a race expasnion, it is unlikely they'd focus on every race and allied race, they'd likely combine

So humans would actually involve stormwind humans, gIlneans and Kul'tirans rather than doing 3 separate ones.

IT is also likely you will get blood elves, high elves, sunreavers and void elves all together in the story.

There would be overlap ofc, part of the human story would have dwarves and high elves and void elves, as i is also the core alliance story, while there will be segments of the Thalassian story where only blood leves are involved.

I also feel,they'd probably rope more of the outside groups into the core groups, becuase the main playable race is supposedly the forerunner group and they'd want to explore not just local politics, butorigins like the Vrykul and core factional grups like ARathor, Lordaeron in the story.

Can you imagine a human story without Lordaeron or Arathor is leavinga huge chunk out, unlss you tell that side of the story via the Forsaken because they are another major race. But I guess it depends on what you want the Forsaken story to tell

A race/class expansion does give insight into each playable race.

But the core would be for those races to be seen as individuals. Nightborne questlines would heavily involve both blood elves and night elves, but their story would focus on Suramar and Zin-Azshari. This is where an overlap could happen between Night Elf Mage players and Nightborne Mage, Warlock and Priest players. They might interact and conduct a Broken Shore scenario, where Horde and Alliance players met, but on different sides, but the quests would remain relatively race bound.

So each race gets attention, but not every class within for that race, will get individual questlines. Those will be the things that overlap.

Examples would likely be:
Blood Elf Warlocks - do quests with Blood Elf Mages
Night Elf Warriors - do quests with Night Elf Rogues and Hunters
Human Hunters - do quests with Human Rogues
Undead Warlocks - do quests with Forsaken Priests and Forsaken Mages
Nightborne Warlocks - do quests with Nightborne Mages.

These races and classes just don't have a lot of lore. Forsaken Warlocks look cool, but they just don't have as bigger lore as the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow or the fact that many Forsaken Mages were once wizards of Dalaran. Now, in terms of Humans and Forsaken when it comes to Lordaeron - I say, that the majority of focus around Lordaeron is given to the Forsaken. They lived in Lordaeron all of their lives and in undeath.

The only time where we would see strong interaction where it would be expected, would be between Sin'dorei and Kaldorei Demon Hunters. Sin'dorei ones could go to Netherstorm with Kayn Sunfury to reflect on the choices of Kael'thas and his Sunfury army and the rigorous trials Illidan set upon the Blood Elves. Kaldorei ones could go to Shadowmoon Valley with Kor'vas Bloodthorn to reflect on the dangerous journey they had made in order to become Demon Hunters.
From Varedis' story - Illidan put the Blood Elves on "harsher" trials, because Night Elves had already done a hard part of their journey, by actually getting to Karabor.

[druchii5]

We all pretty much did wanted Warcraft 3-inspired renditions of the playable races in modern WoW (Nelves and Dwarves for me, especially). But alas, that ship has sailed long ago I'm afraid.

[Rhlor]

My idea of the night elf faction.

4 main Groups:

The Order of Elune:
Here you see Wardens, Huntresses, also sentinels both operating in forest areas and city areas. Finally the Moon Priestess Sisterhood leaders, sen both leading sentinels but also administering as priests in city temples amongst civilian populations.

This is where you see the powerful sabers, the moon glaives, the the bows and the hot women in scanty gear, as well as full plate gear, the glaive throwers of the night elves.

Here you see the Wardens, the night magic of hiding, they are the special enforcers , police and intelligence office wing of the night elves

In the Moon Priestesses is where you see the greatest power of the priesthood in their arcane starfall storms, star explosions, moon falls, etc


The druids:
Here is where you see the great walking trees, the Ancients - but you have ancients of arcane too remember, the Ancients are a race, and nature magic isn't the only thing they know, it's nature and arcane (see Eldre'thalas, see a few other night elven places ), Here you see the mobile units that aided the sentinels in the night elf campaign in WC3.

here is also where you see the Sea giants, the Faerie dragons, the chimera - because the druids know the animals, and the animals respond to them. chimera are with the druids in a way the great sabers are with the priests and night elf guards.

You see the druids of the talon, druids of the claw, druids of the wild, druids of the branch, and dream warden druids, all of them have special emphasis based on their order, the druids of the fang too and druids of the flame and nightmare are renegade factions.

The power wielded is ofc nature, but you see an explosion of emerald dream related things, and a little bit more detail of what the arcane really is to druids.. it's not anathema, it's basically the power that sustain nature and must be held and operate in balance, it is also the key to curing addiction and is a core part of night elf druidism because of their arcane origins.


The Highborne:
This is the restored institution, they mostly live in the night elven cities and towns, their homes are more bejewelled and embellished, but the architecture isn't necessarily different from other city architecture - night elf style is derived form how they built the temples for the priests and that spilt over to all sorts of buildings in city environments the Highborne are the great architects and magical wonder makers.

This group involves Shen'dralar who are like magical engineers and and wonder makers, the Moonguard who are the military mage battle group for the night elves, the Farondis who are the arcane theorists and academics and are the part of the Highborne that actually interact most with the priesthood and druidic scholars and academics, even fel, with demon hunters.

Here you see the civilization side of the night elves pretty much like Suramar, but more the Zin'Azshari style. Here you also see the display of arcane power, the use of the Well of Eternity restored, and how the Highborne are adjusting to a world where the community does not view them as super excellent.

here you will also see how different groups cope with that. The Farondis aren't phase, they are the epitome of the benevolent noble, grateful to have survived, the Darnassian Highborne are the ones that lived through the long vigil, they really understand the principles of balance and humility though they love and cherish their return to the arcane they embrace whole heartedly. The Shen'dralar have the hardest time with this , but they are motivated greatly to restore the prestige of the group and restore unrestrained love for magic - as other night elves while having affinity for it just seem a bit wary and prefer not to involve themselves if they don't have mage like talent, this is not what the Shen'dralar are use to, and they desire the days when arcane was the most influential group and they seek to restore that.

The Illidari Demon Hunter Night Elves:
Like Night elf mages, and druids are part of organisations like the Cenarion Circle and Kirin'tor while still being night elves and helping their people, so to we have this group, it's a bunch of night elf demon hunters bringing Illidari aid to the night elves, just like druids bring Cenarion circle aid, though the Cenarion circle isn't part of the night elves, nor are the Illidari as a faction a part of the night elves..

But as a key part of the night elven lore - (which pre-sundering arcane night elves, Priesthood of Elune night elves, Moonguard, druidism and the night elves, so to Illidan and the demon hunters are part of the racial story of this race though magecraft, druidism )

For demon hunters, you'd have their usual set up we saw in Legion,



This is what the night elf faction would contain.


If we are making a 3rd faction, i think the Nightborne would be part of the night elf faction too. their blood elf friendship can remain, but they could also be a part of the blood elf faction too.. who knows. But let's not forget they are went horde (not because of the blood elves, , but because blizzard wanted to give the horde another elven race, and then used the Nightborne connection with the blood elves to make it happen, but the bigger connection is obviously the night elves).. so the Nightborne in this situation should return back to the night elves.

demon hunter are their own faction and they live on another planet and want to take back black temple as their home. the demon hunter already achieved their objective which was to destroy the legion now i guess they must be taking their well deserved vacations eating demons in outland

if you are going to make a third faction you can make an elf faction

[ravenmoon]

demon hunter are their own faction and they live on another planet and want to take back black temple as their home. the demon hunter already achieved their objective which was to destroy the legion now i guess they must be taking their well deserved vacations eating demons in outland

if you are going to make a third faction you can make an elf faction

You're not getting this. Illidari is the faction, but they are night elf demon hunters as well

The Cenarion circle is it's own faction, there are no druids that work "for the night elves", why would you expect druids to have a role and place in a night elf faction despite being part of a non-night elven body, but not expect the demon hunters to do so? Being a night elf demon hunter or druid doens't mean the Darnassian faction won't have a group of you operating in their lands with the Darnasisans though technically being in another faction.

And since Illidan's defeat in TBC, demon hunters don't live in Karabor either. Since Legion they have a base of operation sin spaceship and control an entire world called Mardum.

This is not about the whole faction of the Cenarion circle joining the night elves, nor is it about the whole faction of Illidari joining the night elves, you will elements of the Cenarion cirlce night elven druids operating with the the night elves as well as elements of the Illidari operating with the night elves.


Dunno why the concept is so hard, Stormwind paladins don't belong to Stormwind, they are part of the international Silver Hand/Argent Dawn, yet you won't have a problem of humans having a paladin contingent of human paladins part of the human alliance faction - despite the Silverhand not restricted to the human races.

Did you Know
likewise if all the Highborne mages were part of the Kirin'tor and all the night elf mages the Cenarion circle and all the night elf Illidari demon hunters part of the Illidari faction it doesn't mean they aren't directly helping and a part of their race's nation. Illidari, Cenarion Circle, Kirin'tor aren't nations, they are organisational factions. Fandral Staghelm was both a member of the Cenarion Circle and a leader of the Night elves.. yet not all night elf druids operated with Darnassus and the new night elf nation.


Also , in addition, after the events of both Legion and the WoT/BFA, including 8.1 and 8.2, who's to say the kaldorei won't want a wing of druids and demon hunters directly working with them

Most things Associated With the Night Elves Aren't "with the Darnassians" Technically
Currently only the Sisterhood of Elune, the Highborne are night elf faction exclusive. Druids, Demon hunters, Chimera, Ancients, Faerie Dragons, Dryads/Keepers (i.e. Cenarians) are technically not part of the Darnassians either, doesn't mean they can't now actually be a part of the faction as a race or group or night elves not elad the international bodies they come from.


Think about it, humans lead the Kirin'tor but it isn't restricted or exclusive to humans at all, you will all acknowledge night elves lead both the druids and the Illidari, but the organisations involved aren't night elven exclusive either.

[sighy]

--snip--

The Illidari are more comparable to the modern Quel'dorei vs Sin'dorei, where they may help against existential threats, but they have a large amount of contrasting views, with the mainstream Kaldorei that would be a major dealbreaker otherwise. (Something that should really apply to the Highborne too given the 10k years of persecution)

[Tanaria]

SNIP

Well, in my idea of racial/class pride - nobody gets made lesser than.

If you play a Blood Elf Mage, then your going to know what it means to be part of the Quel'Thalas Magisters and feel proud to play this race/class combo. (Obviously, this theme can't last throughout the whole expansion - it's why I believe that this section is part of the leveling experience.)

The most important thing in this is that nobody feels lesser than the others. Nobody is told "Well you rolled a Blood Elf Demon Hunter - you should have been a Night Elf instead.." No, that isn't what happens. Blood Elf Demon Hunters could even follow the path of what happens to one who goes insane (Thinking the SSC Blood Elf Demon Hunter boss) and perhaps follow the trial that Illidan had placed on him and see where he went wrong, but you are an accomplished Sin'dorei Demon Hunter - you battled through those impossible trials and here you are...but this is about reflection on those that you were once close to (Sunfury in Netherstorm, Demon Hunter in SSC.)

Along with racial pride in the next expansion (with a void lord invasion), then I think we have enough to truly make a great expansion. Story-led expansions are often the better ones.