Employee Response to Bobby Kotick, Additional Information on Cosby Suite

[Kumorii]

Consensual sex isn't the issue, obviously. It's the fact that he groped and behaved badly with women who were NOT consenting with his behaviour.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Dude, context...
I wasn't talking about groping and harassment. It's not that hard to understand...

[zorkuus]

Consensual sex isn't the issue, obviously. It's the fact that he groped and behaved badly with women who were NOT consenting with his behaviour.

Why is that so hard to understand?

You said it yourself: HE
Others may not have genuinely known he was into bit more than just plain old regular consensual stuff. If everyone is partying like crazy, the weirdo might not stick out from the crowd.

[DingDongKing]

Dude, context...
I wasn't talking about groping and harassment.

My bad, I quoted you but should've clarified. It's the original quote you replied to that I wanted to reply to.

You said it yourself: HE
Others may not have genuinely known he was into bit more than just plain old regular consensual stuff. If everyone is partying like crazy, the weirdo might not stick out from the crowd.

That part has been discussed ad infinitum. Not everyone would've been engaging in the behaviour. THAT SAID, what's problematic is that regardless of whether this was called the Cosby suite or not, it's clear that people knew what Alex was unto. And they didn't speak up.

Now I've addressed that part even, saying that it's incredibly difficult to speak up in certain circumstances due to hierarchies etc.

But even factoring that in, Blizzard senior management KNEW what was happening, and did nothing of note to address the matter until last year, which is when they fired Alex. But it's a case of too little too late, since the victims have been through a lot.

Which is the crux of the case, as far as the sexual harassment side of the suit is concerned. Hope that clears things up.

[Forogil]

1. So having worked in the film industry, I can tell you from experience (FWIW) that word gets around. People just like talking! As far as Weinstein and the likes are concerned, everyone KNEW. It wasn't a case of knowing as opposed to, 'Yeah, I know. But I can't do anything because career'.

Word might have gotten around in the film industry - but in the game industry?
Especially as this suggests that everyone know about Cosby - but that word of Alex hadn't got out as much at Blizzard.

Basically there's so much that seems off in the various explanations.

2. I think (since I wasn't there) it's more likely to be a case of 'Alex gets drunk as the party goes on, and then he gets fucking handsy and disgusting'. I read one account where someone mentioned that the Cosby Suite was a great place to network before the drinking got out of hand. Which sounds about right. It's not 'designed' to be a sexual harassment room, it ends up being the place where Alex became a creep after drinking.

That explanation of the purpose of the room makes sense, but naming it the Cosby suite based on what it will later be used for seems weird.

[ellieg]

Yeah it's very odd isn't it? I mean, big part of partying and drinking is to meet and fuck... women and guys do it. It's a normal routine...

Bro, a lot of people on this site are so busy trying to be antisexist that they are stereotyping all women as these perfectly innocent angels. For every group chat that guys have, girls have one just as bad if not worse. For every guy out there trying to score, there's a girl out there cruising for dick.

There's dudes on this site that get 0 action. And because no girls act flirty around them, hit on them, or feel safe enough to be extremely slutty around them, they assume it never happens. They instantly default to "abuse" in scenarios like the Cosby room and the picture and just cannot comprehend that the women were having just as much fun as the men.

[Saltysquidoon]

Justification for what, exactly? Unless there's information that the women were forced to do that, or that the woman did not consent to the other woman groping her, or that they took and kept the picture against their will, I'm not sure what it is evidence of.

Junior employees taking part in sex acts at the behest of senior employees, while those senior employees are present, at a company event is such a fraught issue I can scarce believe it needs to be explained.
First of all, sex acts at a company event is a minefield on its face. Many firms require even consensual private relationships between unequal colleagues to be run through legal and/or HR, much less what is being alleged here, and as you correctly point out that it even happened at all speaks to the culture.
Secondly, there is the issue of junior female employees being 'encouraged' by senior male employees has the issue of inherent power imbalance.
Thirdly, there have been statements made these parties were well known 'networking opportunities' which in concert with the second point imports a level of implicit coercion that cannot be abrogated (which is why HR and legal should have been all over this like a rash the first time it happened).
Thirdly this is happening at a company where there have been accusations that complaints to HR were met with reprisal, which only adds to the argument junior employees could feel like they had 'no choice' but to comply.

This is all of course reading the alleged incident at its highest, it could be much much more overtly troublesome.

[DingDongKing]

Word might have gotten around in the film industry - but in the game industry?
Especially as this suggests that everyone know about Cosby - but that word of Alex hadn't got out as much at Blizzard.

Basically there's so much that seems off in the various explanations.


That explanation of the purpose of the room makes sense, but naming it the Cosby suite based on what it will later be used for seems weird.

1. I can tell you first hand that word gets around the entertainment industry. Because departments work so closely across sectors even. Voice actors, VFX people, sound people, music people, etc. It's not like newsletters get sent out or people say 'don't tell the tech nerds this bit of juicy gossip'. People talk. It goes around. Even Alex's behaviour would've likely been an open secret within Blizzard, but again because of seniority, no one DOES anything about it. Because it's really hard to move something like this within a company when senior management is not into doing anything.

2. Honestly I don't know whether the name was given because of Alex's behaviour or not. And frankly it doesn't matter in the grand scheme.

[zorkuus]

.....................

Do we know these particular women were employees and not say blizzcon attendees?

[DingDongKing]

Do we know these particular women were employees and not say blizzcon attendees?

Even if Alex is sexually harassing people who aren't employees, THAT STILL DOES NOT MAKE IT ACCEPTABLE.

Where's @TrollHunter3000 with his signature? Zorkuus says, 'it's not creepy if no one says anything about it'.

[zorkuus]

Even if Alex is sexually harassing people who aren't employees, THAT STILL DOES NOT MAKE IT ACCEPTABLE.

No it doesn't. But it seems emotions are running high and people are just trying to pad the already existing story with bs. That doesn't help anyone. And there's no mention that these women in the alleged picture were the ones harassed by Alex, so there's that too.

Where's @TrollHunter3000 with his signature? Zorkuus says, 'it's not creepy if no one says anything about it'.

That wasn't the signature btw. See, you did it too.

[DingDongKing]

No it doesn't. But it seems emotions are running high and people are just trying to pad the already existing story with bs. That doesn't help anyone.


That wasn't the signature btw. See, you did it too.

So you're saying that parts of the sexual harassment lawsuit are fabricated?

Because that doesn't go with your previous stance of 'let's wait for the court case'.

[zorkuus]

So you're saying that parts of the sexual harassment lawsuit are fabricated?

Show me the part where it says the two women in the alleged picture were harassed.

Just stick with the facts, it's disturbing enough. Why do you need to pad it with something you're just making up out of thin air?

Because that doesn't go with your previous stance of 'let's wait for the court case'.

I haven't said that. Someone else might've. STOP fucking making stuff up.

[Delever]

I m all for calling out people for the right things like Afrasiabi being a sexual predator but do you clowns HONESTLY think these people in 2013 would PUBLICLY display something like this if at the time they knew full well about Cosby being a rapist???
Everything that has come out of the investigation is 100% serious and blizzard should go to court and everyone involved should be held accountable, but the notion that the Cosby suite was purposefully named as a reference to Cosby being a rapist is ridiculous because if they did something like that they would have NEVER gone public about it due to it being a PR suicide. Please use your brains to think for 5 minutes.
And while their private chat is tasteless, as much as people hate to believe it, it is a semi-normal douchey chat between a close group of straight dudes. The part about bringing the chicks obviously does not refer to raping them. Also the suite having drinks... yeah thats how you usually socialize and try to get together with people because alcohol helps you get past your insecurities and make a move (I dont mean getting wasted btw just having a normal amount of alcohol to make you more social). Seeing as this chat had been screenied and posted publicly on twitter do you honestly think if this was a reference to sexually assaulting and raping women they would have actually posted it publicly?

With that being said, whether they knew about Afrasiabi being a sexual predator and chose to ignore it or even support it is a different subject and one that the investigation will hopefully deal with and hold the right people accountable for the right things.

[Forogil]

1. I can tell you first hand that word gets around the entertainment industry. Because departments work so closely across sectors even. Voice actors, VFX people, sound people, music people, etc. It's not like newsletters get sent out or people say 'don't tell the tech nerds this bit of juicy gossip'. People talk. It goes around. Even Alex's behaviour would've likely been an open secret within Blizzard, but again because of seniority, no one DOES anything about it.

It's just that a number of persons at Blizzard say that they didn't know Alex behavior; both men and women - so it doesn't seem like the word got around that much.

2. Honestly I don't know whether the name was given because of Alex's behaviour or not. And frankly it doesn't matter in the grand scheme.

To me it would matter, because: it would make it even more systematic and well-known, some (like Greg Street) claim ignorance of that, and it is part of the law-suit.

However, thinking more naming it after Cosby makes little sense: if you are a male game developer trying to indicate that this is where you "score" chicks - why call it Cosby suite and not reference Larry Loffler *wink* *wink* (they might even steal a bit of old marketing material I guess)? If females named it as a warning, it seems odd and non-working.
So, to me it seems that at least many didn't understand the name to refer to Cosby's sexual assaults.

- - - Updated - - -

Do we know these particular women were employees and not say blizzcon attendees?

We don't know, but I'm not sure if the company would have viewed that as significantly better.

Both because they might be future employees (like Olivia Grace), and because it's problematic in general.

[DingDongKing]

It's just that a number of persons at Blizzard say that they didn't know Alex behavior; both men and women - so it doesn't seem like the word got around that much.


To me it would matter, because: it would make it even more systematic and well-known, some (like Greg Street) claim ignorance of that, and it is part of the law-suit.

However, thinking more naming it after Cosby makes little sense: if you are a male game developer trying to indicate that this is where you "score" chicks - why call it Cosby suite and not reference Larry Loffler *wink* *wink* (they might even steal a bit of old marketing material I guess)? If females named it as a warning, it seems odd and non-working.
So, to me it seems that at least many didn't understand the name to refer to Cosby's sexual assaults.

1. I think people in senior management knew. Because they'd have been aware of complaints.

2. As far as people around him are concerned, Dave Kosak definitely knew because he actually would go on to support many claims against Alex.

[Saltysquidoon]

Do we know these particular women were employees and not say blizzcon attendees?

Then that particular picture wouldn't be evidence of workplace sexual harassment. Case closed! Blizzo is innocent, pack it up, folks.

No, but seriously, the sealioning is getting sad at this point. Whether or not a picture no one here has seen is evidence of workplace sexual harassment does nothing to dislodge the issue that at least one senior employee (note that said employee has since been terminated by blizzard for being a sex pest on at least one other occasion) was a sex pest in a coercive environment at a work function.
More's the point it does nothing to show despite parties of this kind being a legal and HR nightmare the culture at blizzard was such that it was not only not stopped by HR, at least one HR representative was present.

How about instead of defending a ridiculously fraught workplace party hosted by a sex pest wherein they 'allegedly' did some sex pesting, we do some critical analysis of why we feel the need to defend said party.

[Forogil]

1. I think people in senior management knew. Because they'd have been aware of complaints.

Possibly, the timing is a bit unclear. However, the point was that the normal employees didn't seem to gossip that much about Alex - so why gossip about Cosby?

In general the timing is unclear: "Two other former Blizzard developers told Kotaku that when they heard about the “Cosby Suite” through whisper networks they clearly interpreted it as a reference to the allegations against him."

Could it be that they heard about the "Cosby suite" later - perhaps in preparation for Blizzcon 2014 ("there shall always be a Cosby suite"); perhaps later, and the 2014 revelations made them understand it in that way, and that this later understanding made its way into the law-suit? If so the law-suit has been spiced up a bit unnecessarily; as there are enough actual issues to discuss without adding that.

2. As far as people around him are concerned, Dave Kosak definitely knew because he actually would go on to support many claims against Alex.

Which makes everything super-weird. Did Kosak know that it was named after Cosby to indicate that there were sexual assaults going on there, bring his wife and friend, and step in to stop sexual harassment?

[zorkuus]

Then that particular picture wouldn't be evidence of workplace sexual harassment. Case closed! Blizzo is innocent, pack it up, folks.

If you had kept up with the convo you would know that was not the issue. The issue I have with is some posters making stuff up around this mystery picture we haven't even seen. Stick with the facts only and people will be more inclined to believe the story itself. Padding it up with one's imagination does not help to convince those who deny the story (I'm not one of them btw before you go there).

[DingDongKing]

Possibly, the timing is a bit unclear. However, the point was that the normal employees didn't seem to gossip that much about Alex - so why gossip about Cosby?

In general the timing is unclear: "Two other former Blizzard developers told Kotaku that when they heard about the “Cosby Suite” through whisper networks they clearly interpreted it as a reference to the allegations against him."

Could it be that they heard about the "Cosby suite" later - perhaps in preparation for Blizzcon 2014 ("there shall always be a Cosby suite"); perhaps later, and the 2014 revelations made them understand it in that way, and that this later understanding made its way into the law-suit? If so the law-suit has been spiced up a bit unnecessarily; as there are enough actual issues to discuss without adding that.


Which makes everything super-weird. Did Kosak know that it was named after Cosby to indicate that there were sexual assaults going on there, bring his wife and friend, and step in to stop sexual harassment?

Cosby is more famous, the word would get out far easier than something about Alex. Even internally. Because no one's focused on shushing Cosby talk. For what it's worth, even with the fact that I'm saying word gets around, I'm finding it hard to entirely rationalise the idea that it was named after Cosby because Alex was some kind of creep. Because that would literally indict every single person who ever went to that party as knowing Alex was a creep. It's why I'm not even that bothered about the naming of the Suite. It's one of those peripheral bits as of now. Unless things change.

[DeusX]

Bro, a lot of people on this site are so busy trying to be antisexist that they are stereotyping all women as these perfectly innocent angels. For every group chat that guys have, girls have one just as bad if not worse. For every guy out there trying to score, there's a girl out there cruising for dick.

There's dudes on this site that get 0 action. And because no girls act flirty around them, hit on them, or feel safe enough to be extremely slutty around them, they assume it never happens. They instantly default to "abuse" in scenarios like the Cosby room and the picture and just cannot comprehend that the women were having just as much fun as the men.

Actually men and women are quite different in this regard. Sure, woman look to get laid too but not even close to men numbers. Look it up on the Internet, you'll find plenty of studies in that regard.