[Megathread] Amazon's New World MMO

[kenn9530]

You act like 2 seconds isn't enough to completely alter a combat situation...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPb4p4HG628
Pretty sure there are LOTS of animations in there that are long enough to want to cancel.



Nice opinion(s), but I disagree. Kingdoms of Amalur is the epitome of melee action combat, followed closely by dark souls (which is inferior because it's slower and they do lock you out of dodge cancelling on a lot of animations). Otherwise, action games basically suck and I'd prefer tab-targeting instant hit skills where animations don't actually impact anything. new world looks pretty similar in terms of flow to greedfall, except with far less jank. Even without the jank, that game's combat sucked big donkey dick.

You seem to misunderstand the whole point in combat, you make a bad choice you might lose the fight, showing gameplay of a hammer does not help you at all, in fact it just proves my point, why should you be able to cancel smashing a heavy weapon into the floor, what is the logic in that, it does not make for good gameplay being able to just cancel animations, its actually makes for terrible gameplay.

Animation cancelling is not even an official gameplay feature in games, players just take advantage of whatever they can get away with ingame that even gives them a slight advantage, if you think its actually good for a game then it just shows you have some bad ideas for what actually promotes a better gameplay experience.

[PACOX]

They DO take time to complete, though. Activation time versus swing time, versus cast time, etc. Doesn't matter. 2 seconds of being unable to do anything else is 2 seconds you can get punished. I've watched videos of all the animations. I know what I've seen. Either all animations need to be < .5 seconds and instant activate (at least melee attacks) or they need animation canceling during at least some part of the wind-up. Otherwise, like I said, it's just left-click central and dodge rolls.

Also, fun fact, there is animation canceling on dodge rolls. You can negate the recovery animation altogether.

It doesn't even have to be straight up animation canceling. I'm not 100% against animation locking as part of a move, when it makes sense. Your character shouldn't be locked in the wind up phase of an animation in an action game. Not in 2021 when other games that use action combat don't have the excessive animation locks of New World. If my character is in the jump portion of a lunge, lock its movement, but if it hasn't left the ground yet then I should be able to channel the move. 3 sec locks are ridiculous. Might as well well be playing a tab targeted game with a GCD at that point.

[BeepBoo]

You seem to misunderstand the whole point in combat, you make a bad choice you might lose the fight, showing gameplay of a hammer does not help you at all, in fact it just proves my point, why should you be able to cancel smashing a heavy weapon into the floor, what is the logic in that, it does not make for good gameplay being able to just cancel animations, its actually makes for terrible gameplay.

Nope. If you can see that your opponent is doing something and react fast enough to change your mind, you should be able to. Reaction > all as far as gameplay goes.

if you think its actually good for a game then it just shows you have some bad ideas for what actually promotes a better gameplay experience.

"Better gameplay experience" like allowing smoothbrain people and people who have mastered learned behaviors to be the best at a game instead of allowing for changeups in the pace of combat, baiting, faking, etc? Nah. Better for scrub players who wouldn't be able to take proper advantage of reactions, maybe. Severely lowers the skill ceiling, which is ALWAYS bad for games IMO.

It doesn't even have to be straight up animation canceling. I'm not 100% against animation locking as part of a move, when it makes sense. Your character shouldn't be locked in the wind up phase of an animation in an action game.

Exactly. Big fucking hammer behind me and I have to sit there and warm up an attack for 2 seconds before even moving the hammer itself? Fuck that noise. If I'm going DBZ style "powering up" I can absolutely just stop the flex routine at any point.

[kenn9530]

Nope. If you can see that your opponent is doing something and react fast enough to change your mind, you should be able to. Reaction > all as far as gameplay goes.



"Better gameplay experience" like allowing smoothbrain people and people who have mastered learned behaviors to be the best at a game instead of allowing for changeups in the pace of combat, baiting, faking, etc? Nah. Better for scrub players who wouldn't be able to take proper advantage of reactions, maybe. Severely lowers the skill ceiling, which is ALWAYS bad for games IMO.


Exactly. Big fucking hammer behind me and I have to sit there and warm up an attack for 2 seconds before even moving the hammer itself? Fuck that noise. If I'm going DBZ style "powering up" I can absolutely just stop the flex routine at any point.

You honestly believe if your in the middle of swinging a hammer which you have no hope of stopping you should just be able to cancel the attack, if you believe that then you have no idea on what actually makes good combat, big heavy weapons take time to attack with thats a drawback with using them, even swinging a sword you cant just immediately just stop it.

Animation cancelling is just a plain stupid idea and makes no sense, you are never going to get realistic reactions in a game, there is not many games that bring in the aspects of meele weapon gameplay let alone in an MMO, you have already proven without a doubt you have no idea whats actually good for a game.

It doesn't even have to be straight up animation canceling. I'm not 100% against animation locking as part of a move, when it makes sense. Your character shouldn't be locked in the wind up phase of an animation in an action game. Not in 2021 when other games that use action combat don't have the excessive animation locks of New World. If my character is in the jump portion of a lunge, lock its movement, but if it hasn't left the ground yet then I should be able to channel the move. 3 sec locks are ridiculous. Might as well well be playing a tab targeted game with a GCD at that point.

Thats the whole point, you use an ability at the wrong time you will take at the very least some extra dmg, by the time you have realised it was a bad decision you are already through the action anyway.

[BeepBoo]

You honestly believe if your in the middle of swinging a hammer which you have no hope of stopping you should just be able to cancel the attack, if you believe that then you have no idea on what actually makes good combat, big heavy weapons take time to attack with thats a drawback with using them, even swinging a sword you cant just immediately just stop it.

In the middle of? Nah. At the beginning? Intentionally swinging half-hearted because I plan to fake? Absolutely. As you say, those things don't translate well or easily to a game, so it's better to simplify and just allow canceling.

Animation cancelling is just a plain stupid idea and makes no sense, you are never going to get realistic reactions in a game, there is not many games that bring in the aspects of meele weapon gameplay let alone in an MMO, you have already proven without a doubt you have no idea whats actually good for a game.

"You're never going to get realistic reactions in a game" not with that attitude. I'm happy to settle for animation canceling as "close enough" though.
"What's actually good for a game" is also entirely subjective, so please caveat your stuff or start talking about it personally instead of like it's some kind of universal truth. There is no such thing in game development or enjoyment.

Thats the whole point, you use an ability at the wrong time you will take at the very least some extra dmg

Nah, if abilities are laggy and allow for something to go from "the right time" to "the wrong time" in the timeframe between when I wanted to do it and when it gets done, that's a failure of the game IMO. Let me change my action as the situation changes, or don't let the situation change.

by the time you have realised it was a bad decision you are already through the action anyway.

Pff, absolutely not. Spoken like someone with the reaction time of a sloth.

[Baconeggcheese]

Animation cancelling is not a good to have in a game, its what actually makes combat clunky and not fun, combat is about making a decisions and using skill to get a better outcome, it makes no sense whatsoever to be able to cancel an attack since most attacks in NW are instant or very fast to activate as it is.

Really depends on the game. Gunz: The duel would have been a hot garbage game if not for the animation canceling. The entire combat ended up revolving around it and made the game deep and competitive in a way it never would have been without it.

Alternatively you have something like mortal shell where they don't literally have animation canceling but they have the hardening mechanic which effectively allows you to pause whatever animation you're currently in which could be viewed as a sort of"cancelling" it for some time in order to become invulnerable.

And then you have something like monster hunter where the entire flow of combat is dictated around you being locked into each animation and each attack being a decision you make with weight to it.

All this to say both can work, it just depends on how the game is designed.

[emotivex]

I see why some people think it's bland. VERY limited skills vs other games we might have played. Like in WoW i have like 3 skill bars set up and hot keyed for general use and I know some people have WAY MORE set up for trinkets/consumables/etc. But at the same time I love how it feels less like lock on targeting to fire off effects in rapid succession. I try and line up heavy/light hits timed with a dodge/skill and things just start to flow. Honestly I think i got like 20+ character levels before getting a skill with certain weapons.... I think i was mastery level 8-10 before I even TOUCHED an active skill on the bow (ranged hit box needs work, not gonna lie)

Limited skills in New World, yes.

But you actually use all 6 skills. You also use your block/dodge, as well as your light/heavy attack. So 10 skills total.

Let's add up what I use on my mage in WoW in a combat situation (talking PvP here, PvE realistically it's less abilities in use unless you're counting consumables, in which case New World also has consumables).

*Denotes rarely used

1) Fireball
2) Fireblast
3) Pyroblast
4) Shimmer
5) Polymorph
6) Counterspell
7) Frost Nova
8) Barrier
9) Cooldowns/Trinkets (usually macro'd, let's be honest)
10) Dragon's Breath
11) Meteor
12) Spellsteal*
13) Arcane Explosion*
14) Meteor*
15) I've probably forgotten something lel

This is obviously not counting macros such as arena 1/2/3 and focus macros, if you add those in you're looking at significantly more. However, from a baseline skills standpoint the difference is not a lot. AND in WoW you can be casting on something without looking at where they are or what your surroundings are, because of tab targeting. I would argue that in a game like New World the fact you have to be so aware of your surroundings, enemy attack animations and dodges, and the fact you have to aim your skills/abilities, easily makes up for the lack of active abilities in the game. Ability bloat is a problem with many games and this is not one, I feel like they've gotten the balance just about right.

[8bithamster]

Nope. If you can see that your opponent is doing something and react fast enough to change your mind, you should be able to. Reaction > all as far as gameplay goes.



"Better gameplay experience" like allowing smoothbrain people and people who have mastered learned behaviors to be the best at a game instead of allowing for changeups in the pace of combat, baiting, faking, etc? Nah. Better for scrub players who wouldn't be able to take proper advantage of reactions, maybe. Severely lowers the skill ceiling, which is ALWAYS bad for games IMO.


Exactly. Big fucking hammer behind me and I have to sit there and warm up an attack for 2 seconds before even moving the hammer itself? Fuck that noise. If I'm going DBZ style "powering up" I can absolutely just stop the flex routine at any point.

I suggest for once in your life try an actual sword fighting course. And not your weeb "Omg bleach katana woop"shit, but actual medieval based weaponry.

Once you commit to an attack, you can't really stop it. It's called momentum, weight and energy. Don't like it? Change the laws of physics. The way it should work is how it works in this game. Not how it works in your weird weeb shit.

[kenn9530]

Really depends on the game. Gunz: The duel would have been a hot garbage game if not for the animation canceling. The entire combat ended up revolving around it and made the game deep and competitive in a way it never would have been without it.

Alternatively you have something like mortal shell where they don't literally have animation canceling but they have the hardening mechanic which effectively allows you to pause whatever animation you're currently in which could be viewed as a sort of"cancelling" it for some time in order to become invulnerable.

And then you have something like monster hunter where the entire flow of combat is dictated around you being locked into each animation and each attack being a decision you make with weight to it.

All this to say both can work, it just depends on how the game is designed.

New World is about slower combat, and most of the animation locks are due to using a certain skill which would be impossible to cancel midway through anyway, New World combat works pretty good and im sure it will slowly be evolved over time with more weapon options and they may even add more to it.

If its a physical attack then you should be locked into it, most of the spells are pretty much instant in the game so it doesnt effect them much either.

Limited skills in New World, yes.

But you actually use all 6 skills. You also use your block/dodge, as well as your light/heavy attack. So 10 skills total.

There is actually 3 weapon slots so you will have access to 9 different skills, 3 different weapons.

[Katchii]

In real life if you start an action you have to follow through with it, swinging a large hammer for example there is no way to cancel that,

This is inaccurate in literally every way, especially when it comes to combat. One of the core tenets of any kind of combat training is adjusting your actions to your situation CONSTANTLY. There's no such situation where if I choose to throw a punch that I can't just cancel that thought and throw a kick instead or rush in and grab them or just...not throw the punch.

Swinging weapons is similar, though not identical because of weight for those that have enough weight to affect that. You change trajectory, adjust the angle, stop the swing and turn an overhead attack into a thrust or a spinning attack.

animation canceling is the worst and clunkiest type of combat and games are not actually designed on the premise of constantly cancelling attacks.

Games that are literally built around combat have animation cancelling as part of them in MANY cases, specifically fighting games.

If you fake an attack you still have to complete it you cant just cancel any motion in real life.

Again, completely inaccurate in every way. No..that's why they call it a "fake" the entire purpose is to make it LOOK like you're doig that attack and then change to something else, literally "animation cancelling" yourself so the opponent reacts to the fake.

In combat you make a decision and should have to deal with any consequences if you made the wrong one,

I don't disagree here, in principal when it comes to games. But when there are situations where missing, misjudging, or slightly mistiming your attack ends with you being stuck in a ~3 second animation where the enemy can kill you. In watching videos of people actively fighting in PvP they look for people with the big 2H weapons and just wait for them to swing so they can dodge quickly and then dive in and take off 50% or more of their health, with most of them dying after a single miss due to how much damage can be done in the time frame their locked into their missed animation.

most if not all abilities in NW are instantly activated so once you use it there is no going back, if you miss the target then you deserve to take some extra dmg.

Again, see above. i don't disagree, but the level of punishment here due to just how long some of those animations are is ridiculous. Animation cancelling would solve that, as well as make all types of combat feel better.

I honestly have no idea how or why you think animation cancelling, something that allows you to cancel attacks, move more freely, and creates more fluid combat situations causes it to be clunky.

The combat in NW is not clunky at all currently, it works pretty well.

The two ideas are not mutually exclusive. It's works pretty well despite its clunkiness, but it IS clunky.

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I suggest for once in your life try an actual sword fighting course. And not your weeb "Omg bleach katana woop"shit, but actual medieval based weaponry.

Once you commit to an attack, you can't really stop it. It's called momentum, weight and energy. Don't like it? Change the laws of physics. The way it should work is how it works in this game. Not how it works in your weird weeb shit.

Outright stop? No. Change direction, adjust your grip to deflect instead of attack, commit to a dodge rather than finishing the attack, letting the momentum carry you somewhere else instead of actually finishing the attack. You're never locked into precisely what you started out as, that's why people train in combat so they can adjust to the changing situation.

[8bithamster]

This is inaccurate in literally every way, especially when it comes to combat. One of the core tenets of any kind of combat training is adjusting your actions to your situation CONSTANTLY. There's no such situation where if I choose to throw a punch that I can't just cancel that thought and throw a kick instead or rush in and grab them or just...not throw the punch.

Swinging weapons is similar, though not identical because of weight for those that have enough weight to affect that. You change trajectory, adjust the angle, stop the swing and turn an overhead attack into a thrust or a spinning attack.



Games that are literally built around combat have animation cancelling as part of them in MANY cases, specifically fighting games.



Again, completely inaccurate in every way. No..that's why they call it a "fake" the entire purpose is to make it LOOK like you're doig that attack and then change to something else, literally "animation cancelling" yourself so the opponent reacts to the fake.



I don't disagree here, in principal when it comes to games. But when there are situations where missing, misjudging, or slightly mistiming your attack ends with you being stuck in a ~3 second animation where the enemy can kill you. In watching videos of people actively fighting in PvP they look for people with the big 2H weapons and just wait for them to swing so they can dodge quickly and then dive in and take off 50% or more of their health, with most of them dying after a single miss due to how much damage can be done in the time frame their locked into their missed animation.



Again, see above. i don't disagree, but the level of punishment here due to just how long some of those animations are is ridiculous. Animation cancelling would solve that, as well as make all types of combat feel better.

I honestly have no idea how or why you think animation cancelling, something that allows you to cancel attacks, move more freely, and creates more fluid combat situations causes it to be clunky.



The two ideas are not mutually exclusive. It's works pretty well despite its clunkiness, but it IS clunky.

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Outright stop? No. Change direction, adjust your grip to deflect instead of attack, commit to a dodge rather than finishing the attack, letting the momentum carry you somewhere else instead of actually finishing the attack. You're never locked into precisely what you started out as, that's why people train in combat so they can adjust to the changing situation.

Sure. I'd like you to swing a huge warhammer and just casually stop a slam to do something else.. Maybe we can print a pic in the "I can ignore laws of physics & 500 other fairy tales I tell myself"

[Baconeggcheese]

New World is about slower combat, and most of the animation locks are due to using a certain skill which would be impossible to cancel midway through anyway, New World combat works pretty good and im sure it will slowly be evolved over time with more weapon options and they may even add more to it.

If its a physical attack then you should be locked into it, most of the spells are pretty much instant in the game so it doesnt effect them much either.

Again it all depends on the way the games designed and how they want it to flow. Mortal shell definitely has slower combat, but still has the hardening mechanic creating a sort of "cancel" mid animation despite the animations often being quite long.

Whole point being I disagree with your assertion that "animation canceling is not good to have in a game". It can be, just depends on how a developer wants to design their combat.

[Fencers]

It also doesn't matter if you can't cancel some attacks. The combat style is not situated to be a fast-paced action game. There are certain mechanics and weapons that do have canceling and unblockable hits, etc.

You don't fight monsters like it's Ninja Gaiden or DMC. Not that style of combat.

[Baconeggcheese]

I'd like you to swing a huge warhammer

I can ignore laws of physics & 500 other fairy tales I tell myself"

Hmm

10chars

[Queen of Hamsters]

One thing I can conclude from watching streamers play the game, is that they went with an art style/shadowing/lighting that's causing my motion sickness/eye strain to flare up.

On the day that it introduces mounts however, I'll be there regardless. I always gotta check out an MMORPGs mounts. XD

[Katchii]

Sure. I'd like you to swing a huge warhammer and just casually stop a slam to do something else.. Maybe we can print a pic in the "I can ignore laws of physics & 500 other fairy tales I tell myself"

You're being incredibly disingenuous here, and showing you've never actually trained in any real kind of martial art. I never said you could ignore the laws of physics, you're arguing that you can't change what you're doing once start the swing, which is just false. If you swing it hard there's no way you'll be able to just stop it, but that doesn't mean you can't change what you do with that swing. ie You intend to go for an overhead blow, mid-swing you realize they are moving and instead of continuing to commit to the blow you let the momentum of the swing carry you and adjust your footwork to turn it into a movement action rather than just an attack.

Even if your actions force you into movements that give you inertia and momentum that can't just be cancelled you can change how you use those, if you go for a strike it doesn't mean your momentum HAS to be used to strike, you can turn that into a dodge, a block, a parry, etc...

[8bithamster]

You're being incredibly disingenuous here, and showing you've never actually trained in any real kind of martial art. I never said you could ignore the laws of physics, you're arguing that you can't change what you're doing once start the swing, which is just false. If you swing it hard there's no way you'll be able to just stop it, but that doesn't mean you can't change what you do with that swing. ie You intend to go for an overhead blow, mid-swing you realize they are moving and instead of continuing to commit to the blow you let the momentum of the swing carry you and adjust your footwork to turn it into a movement action rather than just an attack.

Even if your actions force you into movements that give you inertia and momentum that can't just be cancelled you can change how you use those, if you go for a strike it doesn't mean your momentum HAS to be used to strike, you can turn that into a dodge, a block, a parry, etc...

You are correct. But you can't magically cancel your attack and move into a completely new attack as the person I originally quoted claims. This is just blatantly false.

[THEORACLE64]

It's alright? I'm not completely blown away by it though.

[Katchii]

You are correct. But you can't magically cancel your attack and move into a completely new attack as the person I originally quoted claims. This is just blatantly false.

All discussion of real world physics and martial arts aside....this is about a video game. Animation cancelling is about as close as we'll be able to get to that kind of emergent combat fluidity without an incredibly deep, complex, overly complicated system that isn't really worth the effort to program and animate.

Being locked into an attack animation for the full duration of the attack, with no choice but to just take the hits if you mess up is no more realistic than animation cancelling a slam attack with a warhammer, but one provides more combat fluidity than the other and would feel better to the player (it would feel better IMO opinion anyway, I don't think it being more fluid is really debatable). I'd rather they ere on the side of fluidity if they have to choose between two relatively equally physically unrealistic scenarios.

[mickybrighteyes]

Limited skills in New World, yes.

But you actually use all 6 skills. You also use your block/dodge, as well as your light/heavy attack. So 10 skills total.

Let's add up what I use on my mage in WoW in a combat situation (talking PvP here, PvE realistically it's less abilities in use unless you're counting consumables, in which case New World also has consumables).

*Denotes rarely used

1) Fireball
2) Fireblast
3) Pyroblast
4) Shimmer
5) Polymorph
6) Counterspell
7) Frost Nova
8) Barrier
9) Cooldowns/Trinkets (usually macro'd, let's be honest)
10) Dragon's Breath
11) Meteor
12) Spellsteal*
13) Arcane Explosion*
14) Meteor*
15) I've probably forgotten something lel

This is obviously not counting macros such as arena 1/2/3 and focus macros, if you add those in you're looking at significantly more. However, from a baseline skills standpoint the difference is not a lot. AND in WoW you can be casting on something without looking at where they are or what your surroundings are, because of tab targeting. I would argue that in a game like New World the fact you have to be so aware of your surroundings, enemy attack animations and dodges, and the fact you have to aim your skills/abilities, easily makes up for the lack of active abilities in the game. Ability bloat is a problem with many games and this is not one, I feel like they've gotten the balance just about right.

I'm not trying to say one way is better than the other....

For teh record I actually couldn't see much reason to take any skills on bow despite leveling with it for 10+ character levels. I FINALLY took the piercing shot because it was AoE (the dmg boosts it got was keeping most threats down before reaching me). I was legfit using ZERO abilities to advance (not gonna count dodge or "basic attacks" as abilities)., Jump back to wow where i have 8 skills to juggle for a rotation and upwards of 30 buttons total for general play.

I was merely pointing out why I can understand why some people say it's bland when they have nothing to do beyond mouse clicking their basic light/heavy attack... there's very few builder => finisher style mechanics (I think the Rapier has something with bleeds and a bleed remover and musket has a sort of combo increase for hits within a time limit). People coming in expecting that sort of 'rotation' cycle of gameplay are gonna be disappointed. This is not a complaint on my part in anyway, just an observation.