Backlash opening new doors?

[Osmeric]

If they will be able to recreate that with 10.0, it will surge just like it did in Legion after whole WoD thing.

One may ask why the content has tailed off so badly. The only explanation that makes sense is budget pressure.

So, 10.0 might do as you say, but only if Kotick opens the budget spigot. Do you think there's a realistic chance he'll do that, especially now with this lawsuit?

Beyond that, WoW might get a large infusion of money if the IP is sold to someone with deeper and more willing pockets. But I suspect if it's sold it will be turned into a P2W monstrosity instead.

[Gaidax]

One may ask why the content has tailed off so badly. The only explanation that makes sense is budget pressure.

So, 10.0 might do as you say, but only if Kotick opens the budget spigot. Do you think there's a realistic chance he'll do that, especially now with this lawsuit?

Beyond that, WoW might get a large infusion of money if the IP is sold to someone with deeper and more willing pockets. But I suspect if it's sold it will be turned into a P2W monstrosity instead.

It's not budget, WoW gets more than enough budget - its team is huge and one can't really claim lack of budget when they pulled a 24 minutes of Pixar level 3D animation shorts just like a bit more than a year ago for BFA.

I believe the issue is they play a catchup game. They struck gold with many Legion systems and now they try to avoid 1 year+ droughts at all costs, because that would be a killer.

So they reuse Legion systems over and over again, rebranding them and putting fresh paint on them just so that they don't end up with drought which will be a killer. And they are at some point right about that one.


What they need to is to grow some balls and make some sort of planned drought gamble with micropatches with mini-raids/dungeons over a year and a half and then come out with a shocker 10.0 on the level of innovation and content Legion was. This is what this game needs.

On top of that, they need to rework their content delivery in such a way that instead of a big monolithic x.1/2/3 they deliver smaller but constant content feeds, so there is never a big drought season.

For example, I'm sure quite a few of 9.1 features could have been delivered as 9.0.7 patch or some such, like Megadungeon that is not really tied into 9.1 patch story to begin with. They could have absolutely made it happen 3 months ago too, just at the time when 9.0 really started overstaying its welcome. Same goes for covenant assaults which happen in the Maw, could totally happen before 9.1.

Then 9.1 would release Korthia, Raid and then sometime next month M+ Megadungeon split would open and 2 months later you'd start getting some stuff from what would otherwise be 9.2.

This, IMO, what they should consider to keep people interested.

[Bloomer]

They have WotLK ahead. It'll be huge. Remember 12 millions subs? WotLK will save them for another 1-2 years. Plenty of those WotLK subs will try retail and some of them might like it.

So expect retail to bend for WotLK players. Undead/Old gods/Northrend theme.

After WotLK WoW is dead.

I am not even sure how Wrath Classic will survive P1, to be honest.
You really think people who farmed Naxx and Onyxia in Vanilla Classic for 6 months (more for Onyxia) will want to farm them again in Wrath Classic?

[Newname1234567890]

player housing and tinkerer class ...... that will be the hook.

^ sarcasm

Disagree on player housing, but done well. People love customising thier on spaces.

Plus from a business pov it allows for a new way to add things to the cash shop.

[Luck4]

Because clearly systems, daily chores and lore are some completely new issue for Shadowlands never seen before ever.

To the extent we're seeing, yes it is.

People have to farm over 50 renown to switch specs, they're also not able to switch conduits to their liking, Anima is scarce, Stygia farm is a pain in the ass, Torghast takes way too much time is boring-repetitive-mandatory, World Quests are longer than ever, nearly no loot, enabling 5 or more Great Vault options every week is tiresome, Shards of Domination...

Back in BFA I only had to farm Azerite on the first patch, nothing more! No need to grind Weekly Chest options, no currency tied to sockets or character power stuff such as conduits until 8.2 to farm, no Covenants, no Renown, no dailies until 8.2, loot everywhere, World Quests were easy and fast, Islands and Warfronts were boring and repetitive but at least they were easy and fast to complete.

Yes, we had Titanforging, but other than that the daily gameplay stuff was way less painful.

Anyway, you may still not agree with me, but people do miss the times where they could log in every day and could choose what they want to do (Wrath of the Lich King, Mists of Pandaria), instead of what they must do every day! (Battle for Azeroth 8.2+, Shadowlands)

I forget to mention lore, yes lore is at its lowest since BFA, never before lore progression was so incomprehensive, slow, lame, and unclimactic like these days. And I'm not even touching the fact the story is bad because it is tied to personal taste.

Lore content creators such as Pyromancer had completely given up on it, and even Nobbel is not liking it anymore as he used to... but regarding lore, I think it'll never be good as it used to because was in Battle for Azeroth, the first expansion where Metzen wasn't involved on the development process for the first time, that lore went downhill and really became this bad.

[Gaidax]

To the extent we're seeing, yes it is.

People have to farm over 50 renown to switch specs, they're also not able to switch conduits to their liking, Anima is scarce, Stygia farm is a pain in the ass, Torghast takes way too much time is boring-repetitive-mandatory, World Quests are longer than ever, nearly no loot, enabling 5 or more Great Vault options every week is tiresome, Shards of Domination...

You can't be saying this with straight face in 9.1... like really. Anima scarce and Renown is a grind? In what world is that.

Do you like actually play the game? You legit get Anima thrown in your face to extent Blizz had to up the costs of cosmetic set, because people were rebuying it for anima to make gold. You legit swim in anima now without even trying, not that it ever was even a power resource.

Of all the grinds to grind, the only one that is legit is T6 reputation for sockets. The rest is literally given on silver platter in 9.1.

And finally the counterargument to all that - Legion. Boy... it had grind... people did hundreds of MoS for AP. And still it was a kick ass expansion. While, WoD, that arguably had little grind to it - was shit, because there was nothing to do very fast.

[Cosmic Janitor]

One may ask why the content has tailed off so badly. The only explanation that makes sense is budget pressure.

So, 10.0 might do as you say, but only if Kotick opens the budget spigot. Do you think there's a realistic chance he'll do that, especially now with this lawsuit?

Beyond that, WoW might get a large infusion of money if the IP is sold to someone with deeper and more willing pockets. But I suspect if it's sold it will be turned into a P2W monstrosity instead.

They would never sell the IP, they can make mobile gatcha games themselves, there is no way they would just dump the IP to let someone else do it instead.

[Osmeric]

They would never sell the IP, they can make mobile gatcha games themselves, there is no way they would just dump the IP to let someone else do it instead.

They (or, rather, Kotick) would sell the IP in a heartbeat if they thought that would give them more money than trying to monetize it themselves.

[Luck4]

3) Nothing - it's something you propose. Closest to that was WoD, but even WoD introduced few talents. I won't even comment this, it's just recipe for failure in RPG.

No, I'm suggesting something more akin to Mists of Pandaria, something with only Valor/Conquest gear upgrades like we had in Mists of Pandaria as a power-up chore, a Legendary Quest-line that gives something new in every patch tied to lore events, Mythic+, and dailies/currencies that only matter for cosmetic stuff (search about 5.4 Timeless Isle, 5.3 Darkspear Event, 5.2 Isle of Thunder, and 5.1 Landfall patch reward structure and content).

I'm not against temporary skills, but I'm against temporary skills that are tied to chores and arbitrary things such as covenants and renown. And I'm also against endless daily chores for sockets and power stuff such as conduits upgrades and shards.

People like Preach are best in complaining, but any of these 'experts' gave some alternative solution? Cause it's hard problem, but no one said there is no better answer than 'borrowed powers'.

I mean are you really expecting that someone complaining about a character power time-consuming/gated system will suggest another character power time-consuming/gated system to replace it?

[Gaidax]

People like Preach are best in complaining, but any of these 'experts' gave some alternative solution? Cause it's hard problem, but no one said there is no better answer than 'borrowed powers'.

Preach is a little whining git, but he should not be the one to provide solutions for issues. Same goes for community, it's not our job to provide solutions, even if we offer some at times as thoughts and such.

The issue with player "solutions" is far too often that they are exclusively tailored to that player's wants and nots. Some people would say "well just remove renown and anima 4head", but they don't get it that for many other players these systems are their progression and it's absolutely fair that they have it so they can login odd hour here and there do some random activity to +1 that renown or get another 1k anima towards the mount/mog they want and log off until next few days, week.

And you don't even begin to grasp how many such players are around

[Cosmic Janitor]

They (or, rather, Kotick) would sell the IP in a heartbeat if they thought that would give them more money than trying to monetize it themselves.

And what makes you think he doesn't have the means to monetize them? They own it, they could just give it to King to come up with some mobile trash. What major IPs has A-B dumped that makes you think this is at all realistic? IPs have a value exactly because they can be monetized, and unless you are a private person like George Lucas or Markus Persson there are very little incentives to sell your prospects on future gains if your company isn't in dire need of some quick cash. None of that applies to A-B. At worst they could license it.

[Yarathir]

the people who spent milions of gold on the removed transmogs would literaly re-enact the capitol siege but on blizzard hq

Don't forget the Scarab Lord and Atiesh debacle that would ensue.

[Osmeric]

And what makes you think he doesn't have the means to monetize them?

There's a difference between having the means to monetize the IP, and those means being the best way to monetize the IP. It could be that someone else could think they could do better at that, and make an offer to Kotick reflecting that optimism.

[Cosmic Janitor]

There's a difference between having the means to monetize the IP, and those means being the best way to monetize the IP. It could be that someone else could think they could do better at that, and make an offer to Kotick reflecting that optimism.

We are talking tripple digit millions if not billions here for an IP like warcraft. These don't get sold off because someone comes along and is optmistic that they can monetize it better. Unless A-B is desperate for money they have better chances to milk it on their own over a couple of years. While Bobby the Tick is always hungry for money, he'd be an idiot to pawn off one of his major franchises that makes him a couple hundret million every 2 years with just WoW's expansion sales.

[Quaade]

Ion and the team is what is keeping this whole ship floating.

I think he's giga underappreciated, the ability to pull out non-stop tier patches for years is exceptional...

Yes, there is a cost to it - they can't really do another "Legion" grade expansion - an expansion that shakes up and rejuvenates WoW like this, because that needs a good year plus break. That break is unfeasible.

It was a different team that made Legion. Pretty much everyone that was something who worked on Legion quit making way for the new team lead by Ian Kompetentoss. That was when the dive began. BfA was so bad that the old team was put to work on 8.2 and then left again after it. This is the reason 8.2 is good and only saw the expansion of already existing systems while everyone considers 8.3 a bad afterthought that introduced a new system into an expansion that was already a system hell.

The current people who work on WoW have little to do with the people who worked on WoW in the past, so never ever give them freebies. Their influence in the game only began in 8.0 and it has been a steady decline from there.

Edit: the members of the old team has either quit or are mentioned in the Californian lawsuit. So there's that.

- - - Updated - - -

Because clearly systems, daily chores and lore are some completely new issue for Shadowlands never seen before ever.

This is a disingenuous argument. While those things have been a thing before they've never been this bad of a thing as it has been since 8.0.

In Legion, you had Artifact Weapons, whatever was the patch area, and some questionable lore about Illidan's seemïngly undeserved redemption, except he sorta died and had the chance to rethink things. The only cringy bits were the retcons. While there were OH Callings to old areas there were also to the new areas as well.

In BfA you had the Heart of Azeroth, Island Expeditions, Azerite armour (that was so bad that it needed a revamp in 8.1), and Corruption. Old content stayed relevant even though the desire was to funnel players into the new patch content via the War Callings. Then it further spread you around so you had to go to both Uldum and Vale of Eternal Blossoms, the story was all over the place with first a faction war, then Azshara, and then N'zoth via a weak connection to Azshara. Then all the while you had this cringy story about Sylvanas that left everyone except True Believers deeply wondering.

In SL you have Renown, Soulbinds, Conduits, Soul Ash, Soul Cinders (which also needs The Maw, a zone that's no longer relevant, Stygia (in The Maw), Collected Research (Korthia), and now Shards (which will be redundant in 9.2 anyway), and who knows in 9.2. For a new player that's extremely daunting and far from simple. The daily activities are a lot if you want to stay on top as you have to do Korthia, a stint into The Maw, and the wider SL if you want to do Callings. That's three areas and two of them should have been utterly redundant now and you should only go there because you want to.

In addition, you have the stupidest storyline where the supposedly smart person was easily fooled by the most obvious deception ever that's being set up for atonement or even worse, redemption, for her effectively committing genocide. That's a crime that will send you straight to the Hague in our world and effectively ostracise you. Whenever even a minor active actor in the Rwandan genocide is found they're thrown in front of a court for crimes against humanity and no one, save for the most rabid True Believers, ever tries to defend them without an economic incentive.

Feedback was ignored completely in BfA, the beta process was a joke, several people said that Azerite armour was bad, they were ignored, and the system was changed in 8.1 due to overwhelmingly negative feedback.

Torghast was given feedback all throughout beta that it was boring and far from rogue-like. This was ignored and due to overwhelmingly negative feedback, it was changed to be more rogue-like in 9.1.

Are you seeing a pattern yet? I am. And it's a pattern of Ian Kompetentoss living up to his name from only listening to himself and introducing new systems every patch like the players all had ADHD and would be distracted by the new thing.

Edit: I think it says everything when only one of those expansion's features could be described in three sentences.

[Gaidax]

It was a different team that made Legion.

This is absolute and total rumormill bullshit. The "other", "good" team... yeah right.

[Quaade]

This is absolute and total rumormill bullshit. The "other", "good" team... yeah right.

I never said anything about it being a "good" team, you're the one who implied that I did. The sentence you quoted never even contained the word "good." Argue what I actually said instead of what you claim or imply a straw version of me did so you can look good countering it. It's significantly more productive.

After Legion, the heads of the WoW-team either quit, some pursuing new roles in Overwatch, others in management, or quit the company completely to seek other job opportunities. They were replaced by Ian Kompetentoss and his people. Who had even heard of Steven Danuser until 8.0? Ian Hazzikostas was just a player, a well-known raider until he was hired. He has an education as a lawyer instead of one in game design.

[Osmeric]

We are talking tripple digit millions if not billions here for an IP like warcraft. These don't get sold off because someone comes along and is optmistic that they can monetize it better. Unless A-B is desperate for money they have better chances to milk it on their own over a couple of years.

This is mere presumption on your part. I can present alternate scenarios. For example, suppose WoW is doing best in China, and that Kotick feels the need to replace experienced devs here. It could be better to just sell the IP to Tencent and not worry about it.

[Gaidax]

I never said anything about it being a "good" team, you're the one who implied that I did. The sentence you quoted never even contained the word "good." Argue what I actually said instead of what you claim or imply a straw version of me did so you can look good countering it. It's significantly more productive.

After Legion, the heads of the WoW-team either quit, some pursuing new roles in Overwatch, others in management, or quit the company completely to seek other job opportunities. They were replaced by Ian Kompetentoss and his people. Who had even heard of Steven Danuser until 8.0? Ian Hazzikostas was just a player, a well-known raider until he was hired. He has an education as a lawyer instead of one in game design.

OK, this is such a dumb bullshit, I can't believe I even give it a time of a day.

BFA and Shadowlands story was conjured before Legion even went live - that's why the heck you have Sylv being made Warchief with whisper, Ilgy told us about cunning ones bowing to six masters but serving only one, whole Void Alleria and so on and so forth. So yes, your supposed "team" setup the whole thing 3 expansions forward - BFA, Zovaal and all.

BFA systems and Shadowlands systems are continuation of Legion systems, especially Shadowlands. You need to be completely blind to not see Shadowlands covenant being literally rebranded artifact weapon + netherlight crucible + class hall.

And finally. Who, the fuck, do you think the "team" is? What, Ion was promoted to Game Director from janitor and Afrasiabi and Co were some outsource hires? They are/were THE team - the people who made WoW all the way since Vanilla. That's why WoW frantically tries to remove all the zillion Afrasiabi easter eggs that existed all the way since vanilla.

A few left, a few switched position - guess what it happened every expansion. But as a whole the entity that is called the "team" is there, because 2-3 guys do not make the game all by themselves and they are not some sort of overmind that controls the drone employees either.

So yes, this team is the same bloody team that made legion and same bloody team that made WoD, because the core of the team is not the one single dude that gets promoted to Game Director - the core are the people that develop WoW for decade and a half now and there is plenty there.

[Quaade]

OK, this is such a dumb bullshit, I can't believe I even give it a time of a day.

BFA and Shadowlands story was conjured before Legion even went live - that's why the heck you have Sylv being made Warchief with whisper, Ilgy told us about cunning ones bowing to six masters but serving only one, whole Void Alleria and so on and so forth. So yes, your supposed "team" setup the whole thing 3 expansions forward - BFA, Zovaal and all.

BFA systems and Shadowlands systems are continuation of Legion systems, especially Shadowlands. You need to be completely blind to not see Shadowlands covenant being literally rebranded artifact weapon + netherlight crucible + class hall.

And finally. Who, the fuck, do you think the "team" is? What, Ion was promoted to Game Director from janitor and Afrasiabi and Co were some outsource hires? They are/were THE team - the people who made WoW all the way since Vanilla. That's why WoW frantically tries to remove all the zillion Afrasiabi easter eggs that existed all the way since vanilla.

A few left, a few switched position - guess what it happened every expansion. But as a whole the entity that is called the "team" is there, because 2-3 guys do not make the game all by themselves and they are not some sort of overmind that controls the drone employees either.

So yes, this team is the same bloody team that made legion and same bloody team that made WoD, because the core of the team is not the one single dude that gets promoted to Game Director - the core are the people that develop WoW for decade and a half now and there is plenty there.

The basics points of the story were made that the new team could elaborate on instead of defining it solidly in order to give the new writers room to shape the story as they desired. This gives narrative continuity.

And again, you make a strawman of me that you can explicitly have express that I know nothing. Meritocracy is a lie, it's ultimately who you know instead of your performance level, your performance level is just a factor. Sure, Ian's performance was high enough to get him considered, what got him over the line was that Afrasabi liked him, which given what Afrasabi did makes Hazzikostas infinitely sus.

Your entire post expresses your belief that there's a Grand Plan that guides everything. There's none, like Marvel movies they put in stuff that they can later elaborate on so you can go back and watch the old movies and gain a greater appreciation. The whole Avengers thing only came about because Rober Downey Jr improvised and said, "I am Iron Man."

"And they're still there," no. And I'm unable to blame them, doing the same thing for 12 years takes some serious dedication. I get bored after 12 months if I have to do the same thing all the time.