WoW pvp is the best pvp ever created. But I can't pvp unless I grind 12 hours a day.

[Palapop]

No thanks. The game is about character/power progression before anything else.

Was that the case pre Legion? When WOW was at its peak? Do you even pvp?

[Uoyredrum]

Or the best expansion for WPVP if you played a rogue, disc or tank. People kills dropped marks of prey and it was the nicest rep farming in my wow life. So i strongly disagree, legion was the worst instanced pvp.

It was completely imbalanced due to legendaries and artifacts in world pvp, it was at least playable in instanced pvp. Though I do agree pvp in legion was a dumpster fire in general.

[FAILoZOFF]

Better than current situation, but worse than WoD's gearing system, WoD came with easy to get pvp sets and conquest gear was BIS without ratings, templates on the otherhand did not allow any customization were hilarous at best, you did not play a rogue in legion? Its so cool when you best stat gets penalized and your worst increased by a stupid template. Thats really not needed. And you still had to max out your artefact weapon. Anything legion+ related is bad for pvp.

Why not choose the best system? Everyone is happy - i saw no complaints about WoD PvP gearing whatsoever back in the days.

Of couse people complained... but out of everything else they tried this was probably their best attempt indeed, and with war mode it would be even better in open world zones.
Kinda weird people complained about "QQ no character progress " in legion, while there WAS one albeit it wasn't that big as it was in previous years as well as in WoD really didn't allow for too big power disproportions, not counting in freshly lvl capped greenies- but even blue (which could also warforge proc, while epics could not iirc) gear which didn't took to long to get allowed for quite good standing against fully geared characters as ilvl difference wasn't that dramatic and epics lost their bonus stat allocation.
Oh and Legion also had artifacts that needed lots of grind and infamous LegionDaries out of which quite a fair bit of them were broken in PvP where they worked, that is anything non rated.
So yeah, WoD had the most bareboned gearing system WoW PvP has ever seen.

The worst part was, template screwed up secondary stats of classes, making select few classes stronger or weaker just by that. Its a BS system.
Participation in arenas was at an all time low.

Problem is that they always made classes first for PvE and second for PvP aand then they tried ducktaping them to somehow work in PvP setting. This is just a bad design idea TBH.

[noctim2]

It's the reason I keep losing interest in PvP in WoW.

If you don't have gear, you're useless.
To get beginner gear, you have to grind dozens if not hundreds of random battlegrounds while putting your team at a HUGE disadvantage.
Beginner gear is actually pretty useless and only slightly better than PvE gear.
Without proper PvP experience (and gear), you won't get a decent arena team.
Without a good arena team, the grind takes even longer and you can't get the good stuff in a reasonable amount of time.

I can equip in PvE three times as fast and with much less stress.

[FAILoZOFF]

Was that the case pre Legion? When WOW was at its peak? Do you even pvp?

Yeah, the most enjoyable PvP for me was somewhere between Cata and WoD when they have done some attempts to reduce power of broken PvE items (mainly weps, trinkets and set bonuses) to finally and ultimately get rid of them in WoD which had the best scene to actually balance and normalize PvP gameplay.

[Kaykay]

wow has turned into chorecraft.
Want to pvp optimally?

grind out torghast for legendaries and stygia. (weekly lockout, so if you are behind, dont dream of catching up)
grind out maw dailies to get extra sockets (daily lockout, miss a day, dont dream of catching up)
grind out renown for hp bonus and conduits (grinding renown by spamming dungeons or doing daily quests)
grind out dailies, raids and dungeons for conduit upgrades (preferably higher difficulty, for better ilvl versions)
grind out max key m+ for your offpieces with optimal stats on items (vers + x)

if you dont already have a high ilvl set of pvp gear, you want to grind m+ for high ilvl base set to start pvp.

After spending a few weeks in above pve activities, you can start trying to find anyone that'll take you to push rating.

or just buy a boost. (p2w baby)

[Tyris Flare]

participation is down like 70% this season because gear isn't as good for PvE. https://luduslabs.org/sotl/season-2-begins


This tells you a lot about the constraints of pvp design in this game. If you design a no-gear, no-growth approach, no one actually plays it.

[Steelangel]

The big problem currently is how you have to play against people who have gear they shouldnt have at that rating. for example you are at 1,8 have 1,8 gear and get matched against people who are between 1,9 - 2k rating eho wear 2,4 rating gear. So every game is a uphill battle and you barely get points even if you win. ( which also takes longer cause you are outgeared.) just becqued against some hota next game who crits 2times for half your hp and takes the points you just fought hard over in a second away.

The current system is good for booster, boost buyer and glads. for no one else pvp is fair or accesible

meaning you cant even get better gear without try harding and commiting endless hours of playing with disadvantage. so casuals are just out of pvp

This season what you have right now are people sitting at 18-2100+ Arena rating gear slumming it at 13-1500 in RBGs. Tactics don't matter much when teamfight is a steamroll. This happened last season as well with PvE heroes, but at least the gear disparity could be overcome by being more skilled in PvP. Now the PvE heroes are gone this season because they have no reason to be there.

It doesn't help either that the points per win/loss feel terribly lopsided. A loss by less than 100 points to an equally matched team can cost you 15(!) rating, but win the next one you get back only 10, but sometimes going down in rating means that you are up against a low rated high gear team and lose again. In the last game I played, a guy on my team who was rocking MMR 5 points lower than me got 50 points for a win. I got 10. This is stupid.

I love myself some RBGs, but this season is a mess.

[willtron]

No thanks. The game is about character/power progression before anything else.

Which is wrong, it should be about fun.

Stomping in any PvP isnt fun.

[mbit]

participation is down like 70% this season because gear isn't as good for PvE. https://luduslabs.org/sotl/season-2-begins


This tells you a lot about the constraints of pvp design in this game. If you design a no-gear, no-growth approach, no one actually plays it.

PvP partcipation has been going down fast since wod with every addon. Combat is shit and thats why nobody wants to play. Rewards as a bandaid hook work only temporary.

[GreenJesus]

I feel like the opposite. Gear levels in quick mode but no gear levels in rated.

[regardoz]

100% why i quitted shadowlands , the problem is that , you have to grind f**ing soul ash , f&&&ing legendary recipe , f***ing endless honor gear , and f***ing renown level

most importantely, if you want to grind through battleground , your class is going to hit like an ant because there are no scale . even with this fake 15 ilvl

[FAILoZOFF]

PvP partcipation has been going down fast since wod with every addon. Combat is shit and thats why nobody wants to play. Rewards as a bandaid hook work only temporary.

This? I felt that way at least, even in WoD I had a lot of fun doing PvP on sooo many classes/specs, with Legion it all went away. Current WoW PvP feels to me hollow/shallow and at the same time cluttered to no end, yaiks.

[ArenaDk]

This season what you have right now are people sitting at 18-2100+ Arena rating gear slumming it at 13-1500 in RBGs. Tactics don't matter much when teamfight is a steamroll. This happened last season as well with PvE heroes, but at least the gear disparity could be overcome by being more skilled in PvP. Now the PvE heroes are gone this season because they have no reason to be there.

It doesn't help either that the points per win/loss feel terribly lopsided. A loss by less than 100 points to an equally matched team can cost you 15(!) rating, but win the next one you get back only 10, but sometimes going down in rating means that you are up against a low rated high gear team and lose again. In the last game I played, a guy on my team who was rocking MMR 5 points lower than me got 50 points for a win. I got 10. This is stupid.

I love myself some RBGs, but this season is a mess.

Its just so frustrating because even when 10 Gs below the other team some games go on forever and are so close. And you just know, you should have won. If you had even gear it would have been maybe even a easy match, but the other team is able to compete with you only because of gear.

Its just frustration stacked on frustration

The gameplay currently is fine , even if some classes like warrior and shamen are outliner and could use a nerf. But playing a non meta class with NORMAL gear, gear of your rating vs a meta class thats 10-15 gs above you is just yikes

[Tyrannica]

Problem is that they always made classes first for PvE and second for PvP aand then they tried ducktaping them to somehow work in PvP setting. This is just a bad design idea TBH.

https://www.bluetracker.gg/wow/topic...uly-15th-2016/

Did some nice diggin'. Find me a person, that agrees with these legion class stat templates?

Net result of this was less participation in instanced pvp, while world pvp was an all time high, and those that particpated in arenas and bgs only selected the few classes that were castrated less by the stat template.

What i would do: Take Cataclysm and MoP class design and WoDs pvp gearing system - take SL bonus for PvP trinkets and remove versatility as a stat and reintroduce pvp resilence on pvp gear, bet that would fix most problems. Its alt friendly, its fun and its of course unbalanced as it always have been, but consistent in all pvp brackets.

Special bonus: add wpvp talent tier, why have this only for vision and thorgast and introduce a scaling mechanic when you are solo but outnumberd powered by that tree, we had similar tech(without talenttree) in 1k winter in wotlk, remember how solo people stacked their stats when attacked by a group of people? I mean this is not really needed, but for those that are concerned about wpvp balance and want to bring back life and strife to all those dead wow zones back, cause i really do think a mmos pvp should focus on the open world and zones, or its nothing special - i mean or you could just play any other pvp focused game and have a better expierence, there is no point.

Must be a reasion why New World is currently so popular for pvpers.

- - - Updated - - -

It's the reason I keep losing interest in PvP in WoW.

If you don't have gear, you're useless.
To get beginner gear, you have to grind dozens if not hundreds of random battlegrounds while putting your team at a HUGE disadvantage.
Beginner gear is actually pretty useless and only slightly better than PvE gear.
Without proper PvP experience (and gear), you won't get a decent arena team.
Without a good arena team, the grind takes even longer and you can't get the good stuff in a reasonable amount of time.

I can equip in PvE three times as fast and with much less stress.

Well, the game director is a PvE Nerd, so no wonder we got this direction, it made me not to alt anymore, a main can be maintained in pvp and those systems, but alting is not recommended.

I just unsubbed, because i did no longer agree with the games direction, the game feels lifeless and a reasion for that is no wpvp and really boring/unfun class design with too many grinds on top of it.
Don't think this will change anytime soon or at all, maybe make Holinka the game director and see what happens?

[LedZeppelin]

If a player puts in the time and gets the best gear in the game, yes i do believe they get should be able to stomp people

[jazen]

I've pretty much stopped pvp at max lvl, which is quite different from previous expansions. I don't have a consistent schedule, so not able to keep a group together for arena. I no longer have time for grinding conquest to get the intro lvl gear. I'm not willing to pay real life money to buy tokens to be able to afford boosts with gold. I don't have the patience to pug arena as the few times I've entered it's been vs some ilvl226'ers selling boosts.

ilvl cap for all random pvp, set to max unrated ilvl (pvp or pve geared toons). Random bg, random epic, and random brawls shouldn't be glads and mythic raiders wtfp'ing under geared peeps.

[Tyrannica]

wow has turned into chorecraft.
Want to pvp optimally?

grind out torghast for legendaries and stygia. (weekly lockout, so if you are behind, dont dream of catching up)
grind out maw dailies to get extra sockets (daily lockout, miss a day, dont dream of catching up)
grind out renown for hp bonus and conduits (grinding renown by spamming dungeons or doing daily quests)
grind out dailies, raids and dungeons for conduit upgrades (preferably higher difficulty, for better ilvl versions)
grind out max key m+ for your offpieces with optimal stats on items (vers + x)

if you dont already have a high ilvl set of pvp gear, you want to grind m+ for high ilvl base set to start pvp.

After spending a few weeks in above pve activities, you can start trying to find anyone that'll take you to push rating.

or just buy a boost. (p2w baby)

True, btw love how the LFG in every SL season so far was full of Boosters and people that never entered the arena, only extremes there is no middle ground.

If anyone really must play wow pvp, at least play TBC Classic, but i think there are currently better options on the horizon of what you can play.

I'll return if Holinka becomes game director - it will never happen, but it would be a great change in the right direction, just because how far away the rest of the wow team is of the idea to do pvp in a mmorpg game.

[mbit]

This? I felt that way at least, even in WoD I had a lot of fun doing PvP on sooo many classes/specs, with Legion it all went away. Current WoW PvP feels to me hollow/shallow and at the same time cluttered to no end, yaiks.

Its not just a feeling. Numbers were closely tracked by glad players since Glad & RBG Cutoffs were based on participants. Arenajunkies held records of the decline and i remember the striking number 50% less participation from one addon to another past the initial release month for 2 consecutive addons. The steep decline is also why aj itself closed in the end.

[ArenaDk]

If a player puts in the time and gets the best gear in the game, yes i do believe they get should be able to stomp people

There are two ways to get the best gear. Be a top 0.1% or buy a boost from the 0.1%

This two groups of people should be allowed to stomp on people by quing in lower rating brackets and stop player to earn their gear the normal way ?

Makes sense. You never played pvp over random bgs, didnt you?