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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So it is okay to harass them just because they bought something Blizzard offered? No one should expect to get harassed in-game just for doing normal game stuff. That is a hallmark of toxic behavior and everything should be done to put a stop to it. You just gave a free pass to toxicity because it aligns with your view and you are upset over the choices Blizzard made.

    So why not actually hurt them by not subscribing to classic if you feel that strongly about the way they are designing it? Right. That would actually require a sacrifice on your part where being toxic to others won't cost you a thing until it is officially stopped by Blizzard.

    Beautiful assumption again but I don't play Classic and never have, nor have I ever used /spit on anyone since Vanilla. I have been spit on plenty of times but I can safely say it has never impacted my mental health, because you know... it's just a game.

    However, I am a firm believer of action vs consequences and in this case the action started with Blizzard's cash grab, then the people using the store mount knowing full well it's not part of the Classic premise, and then people using /spit. The people who are using the store mount are just as guilty of harassment by ruining the Classic experience for everyone else around them. It's a virtual mount vs a virtual spit and you can't convince me one is worse than the other. Yet somehow it's the active /spit protest that is being punished. That's why I'm against /spit being removed.

    And the whole argument about simply using something Blizzard offered just makes it seem like no one is accountable. Would you accept a beer from a passenger while driving a car? It was offered but you can be damned sure there will be consequences for those around you if you use it. And yes this is an extreme case but all cases start small before they get bigger... especially when no one is held accountable.

  2. #462
    Quote Originally Posted by Zalraki View Post
    And the whole argument about simply using something Blizzard offered just makes it seem like no one is accountable. Would you accept a beer from a passenger while driving a car? It was offered but you can be damned sure there will be consequences for those around you if you use it. And yes this is an extreme case but all cases start small before they get bigger... especially when no one is held accountable.
    The fact that you somehow equate driving while intoxicated with buying a fucking mount in a video game is absolutely all the proof anybody needs to understand that your opinion on this matter is so far removed from reality that it's barely worth addressing. Your mindset is repulsive.

  3. #463
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zalraki View Post
    Beautiful assumption again but I don't play Classic and never have, nor have I ever used /spit on anyone since Vanilla. I have been spit on plenty of times but I can safely say it has never impacted my mental health, because you know... it's just a game.
    It doesn't matter if you play classic or not. You are still playing retail which means you are still supporting the actions of Blizzard right? Why is it that it is okay to harass other players to send a message but you won't send Blizzard that message yourself?

    The action started with a streamer and players. Nothing Blizzard will every do warrants harassing other players. Blizzard cash grabs have existed since day 1. It is why we have merchandise, CE editions, TCG loot cards, and all the other things. You don't care about the cash grabs because you won't even quit Retail that has a lot more of them.

    And look how you shift the blame on to those who are playing the game the way Blizzard designed it instead of putting the blame on the people doing the harassment. The abusers are never the victim. Lmao. Drunk Driving is equal to using a mount in a game? Lmao. The players are not the ones who need to be held accountable it is Blizzard. You know the ones who sold the mount? The ones who design the game you are playing?

    And yet you think it is better to harass players instead of actually holding the responsible parties accountable. Toxicity at its finest.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It doesn't matter if you play classic or not. You are still playing retail which means you are still supporting the actions of Blizzard right? Why is it that it is okay to harass other players to send a message but you won't send Blizzard that message yourself?

    The action started with a streamer and players. Nothing Blizzard will every do warrants harassing other players. Blizzard cash grabs have existed since day 1. It is why we have merchandise, CE editions, TCG loot cards, and all the other things. You don't care about the cash grabs because you won't even quit Retail that has a lot more of them.

    And look how you shift the blame on to those who are playing the game the way Blizzard designed it instead of putting the blame on the people doing the harassment. The abusers are never the victim. Lmao. Drunk Driving is equal to using a mount in a game? Lmao. The players are not the ones who need to be held accountable it is Blizzard. You know the ones who sold the mount? The ones who design the game you are playing?

    And yet you think it is better to harass players instead of actually holding the responsible parties accountable. Toxicity at its finest.
    Why should I send a message over something that I do not believe is harassment? Just because a few players see some extra orange text in a small box doesn't automatically make it harassment. Unless of course I've missed a new law somewhere. You are right about 1 thing though, I don't care about the cash grab store personally, but I acknowledge and accept that there are players who do. I also acknowledge there are/were a lot of people trying to play the Classic experience as they thought it was intended but can't because of the store mounts running around.

    Since the the drunk driving example was a bit extreme, I'll try a simpler one: You're on an airplane and everyone around you is using the standard headphones to watch a movie, except 1 person. He decided to buy tax-free speakers and is listening to loud music, ruining whatever everyone else is watching or listening to. At some point people start throwing peanuts at him so he complains about it and as a result, no one gets anymore snacks for the rest of the flight. Meanwhile he turns up the volume even more because he now knows that complaining works.

    So who would be the real villain in this case?

    It all boils down to a fundamental difference in sides here. On the one side we have people who don't feel it was needed to remove /spit because of a few complaining players. While the other side will call anyone toxic and pro-harassment just because they disagree with their own side. (which of course, is pretty toxic as well)

  5. #465
    My main issue with all of this is shaped by my experience in TBCC. Not once did i see crying in chat about the mount - not once did i see anyone spitting on people using the mount. I did dungeons with boosted toons, I did dungeons on my boosted toon - no one said anything, no one cared. I dont pay much attention at all to any emoted being thrown around, but I will say that really, many of them could be deemed 'offensive' when used in certain context.

    Some people are foolishly trying to say it is offensive because of the comparison to the action IRL - but that doesnt hold up at all - what about all the other things we can do in game that could be deemed offensive? What about t-bagging corpses? One person said the emote is offensive because it is essentially "taunting or mocking" the other person. Even when I pointed out that /taunt and /mock literally exist in game, they said "yeah, but its not physically SPITTING on someone" - well neither is just typing /spit.

    If they have a problem with this so called 'movement' of people /spitting on anyone with the mount, then the emote is NOT important - it could have been /chicken, or /golfclap or /mock and the result would have been the same. Again, I never witnessed any "harassment" at all using /spit or any other emote, but it probably did happen in small doses on other realms, although im equally as certain it is grossly exaggerated.

    The claim of "harassment is harassment" indicates the /spit emote is NOT the problem, not at all, but rather a fractured culture in game caused by a situation of the Haves, and the Have Not's - one that Blizzard created. Im not saying Blizzard should not have introduced the mount, but they certainly created the situation where this fracture occurred, and from reading most of these comments, most of those against the removal dont give a shit about the emote itself, but rather Blizzards actions, especially when compared to their current legal battles. Blizzard create situation - people are outraged - Blizzard blame the community.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  6. #466
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zalraki View Post
    Why should I send a message over something that I do not believe is harassment?
    You just got done saying how terrible it is that Blizzard has a for pay mount in TBC-C. If you don't actually believe it then stop trying to use it as a reason for outrage. You are saying it is okay to harass players. Your airline example is flawed because the flight attendants would put a stop to blaring the speaker and can actually have the person arrested for failing to comply. It isn't up to the passengers to enforce airline rules. Buying the mount from Blizzard is also not something is against the rules or impacts you as a player in any way shape or form.

    It isn't surprising that you keep using flawed examples to support being toxic to other players. Yet think you are being called toxic and pro-harassment just because people disagree with you. No you are being called toxic because you are supporting toxic behavior and see nothing wrong with that toxic behavior. It isn't toxic to call out toxic behavior. But if someone actually was saying you are toxic just because you disagree with them then yes that would be toxic. But that isn't the case at all here and you should know that.

    TBC had "store mounts" in the from of loot cards purchased from the TCG. So the concept of selling mounts, or other items, for money is something that was present back during TBC. The real villian here is you, and anyone else, that harasses players or supports the harassment of players. It is that simple. If you are upset at Blizzard then take it out on Blizzard. Taking it out on players does nothing but to soothe your ego.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post

    Brother you don't get to be arbiter of what is and isn't acceptable in an online community.
    In this context, only Blizzard do - my issue isnt with the removal of some silly emote, its with them causing the issue, then blaming the community for it - something all to familiar from them right at the moment. I think it sets a dangerous precedent - 'if enough of you say something offends you, we will remove it from the game'. Thats the only thing that concerns me - them blaming the community, and where will they draw the line?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  8. #468
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Blizzard create situation - people are outraged - Blizzard blame the community.
    To be fair, that's one of the few things that Blizzard still delivers at a steady pace.

  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    To be fair, that's one of the few things that Blizzard still delivers at a steady pace.
    HAHA, fair call.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  10. #470
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    In this context, only Blizzard do - my issue isnt with the removal of some silly emote, its with them causing the issue, then blaming the community for it - something all to familiar from them right at the moment. I think it sets a dangerous precedent - 'if enough of you say something offends you, we will remove it from the game'. Thats the only thing that concerns me - them blaming the community, and where will they draw the line?
    There are two ways to take your comment. One is blaming Blizzard for putting it into the game in the first place. That is silly and means they can remove it at any time with out issue. The second is talking about the mount in TBC and blaming Blizzard for causing players to use this emote as harassment which is again silly. Because it is the fault of players and more importantly the streamer that called for that specific form of harassment.

    It also in no way sets a precedent that hasn't already existed. Blizzard has always made changes based on whatever they wanted to do. If they felt something was going against the "spirit of the game" they would put a stop to it. They are not blaming the community in any fashion. Have you seen an official comment where they put blame on the community? Or is that just BS you and others invent so you can create a scapegoat for toxic attitudes?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  11. #471
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Good riddance. The "lets spit on store mount buyers on TBC classic realms"-movement was disgusting as hell.
    I would spit on Blizzard but I don't want to kick an entity when it is down
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  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You just got done saying how terrible it is that Blizzard has a for pay mount in TBC-C. If you don't actually believe it then stop trying to use it as a reason for outrage. You are saying it is okay to harass players. Your airline example is flawed because the flight attendants would put a stop to blaring the speaker and can actually have the person arrested for failing to comply. It isn't up to the passengers to enforce airline rules. Buying the mount from Blizzard is also not something is against the rules or impacts you as a player in any way shape or form.

    It isn't surprising that you keep using flawed examples to support being toxic to other players. Yet think you are being called toxic and pro-harassment just because people disagree with you. No you are being called toxic because you are supporting toxic behavior and see nothing wrong with that toxic behavior. It isn't toxic to call out toxic behavior. But if someone actually was saying you are toxic just because you disagree with them then yes that would be toxic. But that isn't the case at all here and you should know that.

    TBC had "store mounts" in the from of loot cards purchased from the TCG. So the concept of selling mounts, or other items, for money is something that was present back during TBC. The real villian here is you, and anyone else, that harasses players or supports the harassment of players. It is that simple. If you are upset at Blizzard then take it out on Blizzard. Taking it out on players does nothing but to soothe your ego.

    Just (pun not intended) wow. So many examples in there of completely disregarding or outright insulting anyone who doesn't agree with you.

    Has anyone given any statement that /spit is now officially considered toxic behavior? Or is that solely up to you?
    Do you have proof that /spit impacts you as a player in any way shape or form or is that your assumption?
    What about the people who believe the new store mount ruins the game for them but who don't use /spit? Apparently their feelings don't matter.
    Way to avoid answering the example, btw.
    Yes 'store' mounts were in the game but using those hasn't produced any /spit now has it? Only the new store mount has.
    Things are being taken out on players already but that's ok because those are the players not on your side, therefore they are inherently evil, right?

    Way to prove which of the 2 sides you belong to. Which also mean that any rational discussion is unfortunately not possible.

    ps, I would advise you to take a breather because I can sense an increase in blood pressure based on your typing style.

  13. #473
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    In this context, only Blizzard do - my issue isnt with the removal of some silly emote, its with them causing the issue, then blaming the community for it - something all to familiar from them right at the moment. I think it sets a dangerous precedent - 'if enough of you say something offends you, we will remove it from the game'. Thats the only thing that concerns me - them blaming the community, and where will they draw the line?
    As I said in a post a few pages back, I see this as more of Blizzard drawing a line in the sand between normal video game toxicity and harassment. You and I may have different opinions about what constitutes harassment (as the 28 pages of discussion on this topic have shown clearly) but Blizzard is taking steps to snuff out what they feel is too far in the direction of what they deem harassment. Some might see this as something of a phyrric victory given the "good will" Blizzard is losing as a result of this change but I'd personally argue that if the removal of a /spit emote from the game is enough for you to leave then the community is probably better off without you anyway. But hey, that's just my opinion.

  14. #474
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zalraki View Post
    Do you have proof that /spit impacts you as a player in any way shape or form or is that your assumption?
    It was being used to harass players which you even acknowledged and said is acceptable. Why ask a question you already know the answer to? If people believe the new store mount ruins their game then they can give feedback to Blizzard. It is never acceptable to take your anger at Blizzard out on other players. Which also shows that you don't need proof that it happened because you acknowledge it and are defending that harassment.

    I didn't avoid answering the example. Your example was flawed because the Airline would enforce their own rules on the flight. People that throw peanuts and harass another person on the flight would also get in trouble. Harassment isn't okay just because you are angry.

    Players that don't like store mounts are not inherently evil. It is perfectly fine to not like store mounts. Why even say something so incredibly stupid? People that harass other players when upset at Blizzard are toxic. Why are you giving them a free pass on blame? I know which side I belong to. Against harassment. If you choose to be on the other side then so be it. But it isn't wrong to be against harassment and toxicity.

    There is no increase in my blood pressure as I have nothing to increase it over. But since you are turning from the discussion to insults and other stuff it may be you who needs the breather. It might at least allow you to not invent things that were never stated.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  15. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It was being used to harass players which you even acknowledged and said is acceptable. Why ask a question you already know the answer to? If people believe the new store mount ruins their game then they can give feedback to Blizzard. It is never acceptable to take your anger at Blizzard out on other players. Which also shows that you don't need proof that it happened because you acknowledge it and are defending that harassment..
    People were being spit on, that's not in question. I asked for proof that the virtual spit caused physical or emotional harm enough to label it as harassment. Otherwise boo-ing an opposing team during a sports match would be considered harassment too. Since you avoided the question again I can safely assume you have 0 evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    I didn't avoid answering the example. Your example was flawed because the Airline would enforce their own rules on the flight. People that throw peanuts and harass another person on the flight would also get in trouble. Harassment isn't okay just because you are angry.
    My interpretation of this is that the person ruining the experience on the plane for everyone else does not hold any blame according to you, since you only focus on the people throwing peanuts. Which seems in line with the stance toward the in-game issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Players that don't like store mounts are not inherently evil. It is perfectly fine to not like store mounts. Why even say something so incredibly stupid? People that harass other players when upset at Blizzard are toxic. Why are you giving them a free pass on blame? I know which side I belong to. Against harassment. If you choose to be on the other side then so be it. But it isn't wrong to be against harassment and toxicity.
    You assume that the players are upset at Blizzard for putting the mount in the store. I consider it much more likely that the players are upset at the people who actually decide to buy the mount. Also, we have no idea what other steps have been taken towards Blizzard. Maybe people gave 'strong feedback' to Blizzard as well but that's not made public.

    It isn't wrong to be against harassment and toxicity but it's very dangerous if the definitions of those are only in certain people's minds. It's like skipping the judge/jury phase and going directly to execution because some person thinks he knows best.

  16. #476
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    They removed the manual /spit, no idea whether the auto emotes still work.

    For someone who's talks about "not getting it", you don't even have your fact straight.
    The manual /spit is still there, you can make puddles on the ground as big as you want.

    You just can not /spit on a target anymore.

  17. #477
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zalraki View Post
    People were being spit on, that's not in question. I asked for proof that the virtual spit caused physical or emotional harm enough to label it as harassment. Otherwise boo-ing an opposing team during a sports match would be considered harassment too. Since you avoided the question again I can safely assume you have 0 evidence.
    There doesn't need to be proof of physical or emotional harm in order for something to be harassment. I can easily tell you to prove that it hasn't since that is the claim you are making. Those types of requests are most often used a a smoking gone type of dismissal of what someone says just because they can't provide what you want. I didn't avoid the question.

    https://twitter.com/asmongold/status...138116?lang=en

    That link is proof of what you say and also indicates that it was targeted harassment rather then just innocent use of the emote. You have already established though that request proof is a red herring. As you already acknowledge that it is fine to harass other players for buying a mount. So it being harassment or not is irrelevant because you've already established it is and is fine to do.

    My interpretation of this is that the person ruining the experience on the plane for everyone else does not hold any blame according to you, since you only focus on the people throwing peanuts. Which seems in line with the stance toward the in-game issue.
    Then you are being dishonest. If I say the airlines would enforce their rules, where being disruptive with excessive noise is against those rules, that means the blame is on the person breaking the rules. Just like the blame for harassment is on those who are doing the harassment. Buying a mount that the game allows is not harassment.

    You assume that the players are upset at Blizzard for putting the mount in the store. I consider it much more likely that the players are upset at the people who actually decide to buy the mount.
    Why move the goal posts? You early said Blizzard is bad for ruining the classic experience with the mount. Not it isn't Blizzards fault, who didn't have to put it into the game, but the players fault for using the mount. It doesn't matter if other steps have been used to protest the decision. It is never okay to harass other players simply because you are unhappy.

    This isn't a cause of skipping the judge and jury. This is a clear cut case of toxicity and harassment. You keep trying to shift blame and create any excuse you can think of for what it isn't the fault of the people doing the toxic behavior. They are not forced to harass others so it is only their fault. There are ways to be upset and express it that does not include being toxic or harassing other players.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  18. #478
    Quote Originally Posted by Zalraki View Post
    It isn't wrong to be against harassment and toxicity but it's very dangerous if the definitions of those are only in certain people's minds. It's like skipping the judge/jury phase and going directly to execution because some person thinks he knows best.
    Last I checked, Blizzard is a privately owned company and can do whatever the fuck they want with their game.

  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    The manual /spit is still there, you can make puddles on the ground as big as you want.
    I'm fairly certain that the automatic one is also still there.

  20. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Last I checked, Blizzard is a privately owned company and can do whatever the fuck they want with their game.
    I fail to see how your response is related in any way to the comment you quoted. BTW, it is a publicly owned company.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    As I said in a post a few pages back, I see this as more of Blizzard drawing a line in the sand between normal video game toxicity and harassment. You and I may have different opinions about what constitutes harassment (as the 28 pages of discussion on this topic have shown clearly) but Blizzard is taking steps to snuff out what they feel is too far in the direction of what they deem harassment. Some might see this as something of a phyrric victory given the "good will" Blizzard is losing as a result of this change but I'd personally argue that if the removal of a /spit emote from the game is enough for you to leave then the community is probably better off without you anyway. But hey, that's just my opinion.
    So I have one question for you - Do you feel Blizzard is the right company to be setting the standard for what is and is not harrassment, given their current situation?

    "heyheyhey, stop that, thats harrassment - infact, you know what? /spit is gone now! - anyway i need to head off, im due in court on charges of prolonged harrassment over the last 2 decades, but please, stop harrassing people, this is all YOUR fault, valued customer!"
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-08-02 at 10:19 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

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