Do Healers have to DPS now during down time in between heals?

[Relapses]

Aye it's a bit strange, but it does make sense. The players that get past that initial hurdle of 10-15s & push into the high teens/20s have figured out where all the damage comes from, all the frontals, all the stuff to avoid etc, as they simply won't survive if they don't play well. Make a mistake on a 15 & you're likely to be fine so long as your healer is ready to bail you out/you don't make another daft mistake immediately after. The unavoidable stuff gets harder to heal, but in terms of avoidable damage across a dungeon, I'd not be surprised to see average +20 players take less of it than average +10 players.

As a new healer, I can tell you already that it's night and day. Healing people in 10-14s is way, way harder than those in 15+. The people in 10-14s are the worst kind of players -- decent enough to know they're not bad, but not quite decent enough to understand what does and doesn't need to be interrupted; how to properly maximize survivability and are often the first players to start the blame game once something goes south. Playing a Shaman healer is actually extra irritating because even though it's the only healer with an interrupt (which is super nice), players apparently expect you to interrupt literally fucking everything because if a cast goes off that you could have interrupted, it's immediately your fault. Kind of frustrating but you learn to live with it.

[Very Tired]

It is odd in a sense. Lower keys and even fifteens often have more incoming damage I find then higher. In the 19-21 range of keys there isn't really much damage coming in anymore that is unexpected due to dps maximizing interrupts ,stuns, and soft cc. That said any of that damage that does make it through at all hits like a truck filled with bricks.

Yeah, it's honestly a joke really. I've healed 7s that took more incoming damage than some of the high level mythic+ runs Blizzard broadcasts as an esport. Their health bars don't jump around nearly as much. What's worse is that avoidable damage that could be an easy 1-shot on you in high level runs, something that is immaturely obvious to the player that they did something wrong, only comes across as mere encounter damage and is expected to be healed up along with everything else.

[kenn9530]

All group member should be expected to contribute what they can and remain consistently engaged. If you are caught up on healing, and don't need a particular utility at the moment, and you have a couple spare GCDs...yes you should be expected to contribute by adding damage instead of twiddling your thumbs. The tank and DPS are expected to be engaged and active 100% of the time that mobs are up- you should too.

A healer is there for one job, it should be a choice if they want to do anything more than the role of a healer is, a healer doing damage is simply not required in the slightest.

This is entirely a lie. There are significant periods of downtime on healers or this wouldn't even be a discussion, as healers would never have time to do anything but heal, and nobody would bother asking them to do anything else.



And when you only have 1 healer? Bringing zero healers is not an option, so you can't replace it with a dps.

There is significant time where healers are doing nothing if all they do is heal.

Your entire post reeks of someone who hasn't played the game since Wrath of the Lich King.

It is not a lie i play with tanks who pull large packs and there is tons of healing required, its a simple fact healer damage is not required in mythic plus or raiding, you are the one who is lying.

In raids there is always something to heal and there will be a point where x number of healers have to be brought, it seems you are the one who does not even play the game.

Get with the times, old man.

Healers have been bonus DPS ever since the 5 second rule was removed, and even moreso after most DPS spells had their mana cost removed. A healer that's standing around doing nothing waiting for something to heal is a player who is slacking.

Healers damage in the past used to be useless so there was no point, even now healers like shaman have really bad damage, a healer will always be casting so there is never a time where a healer is doing nothing.

I have a 98 log on mythic sludgefist for healer damage and still only done less than 700k and just under 2k dps.

If a healer just wants to heal thats fine and there is no content that actually needs healers to dps, if they choose to do damage then thats up to them also. It is just bad design if you are forcing healers to damage because you are unable to kill a boss and your dps are just getting blue logs.

[vsb]

I've picked up healing again after being years away from the game since early MoP. Do Healers have to DPS during down time these days? I'm lost and confused.

Of course they do, like they always had to.

I picked up healing on a Holy Paladin and a Resto Shaman. I found myself being pushed into using Crusader strikes on enemies and bosses. Which turned me off the spec and class that I enjoyed healing on back in the day. I levelled up a Shaman and decided to try Resto. I've been seeing a lot of talk about healers doing a ton of DPS in Mythic keys and am wondering if I should be DPSing as well when not healing or during downtime?

You should do what's more useful for your group. If someone's going to die without your heals, you have to throw those heals. If nobody's going to die, you have to contribute to DPS.

I've done a few low keys, and I barely have time to keep up with healing let alone DPSing. How are healers expected to or are DPSing at higher keys? Is there something I ain't doing right or should be doing? Thanks for any and all advice. Could really use it.

Only noobs play in low keys. They'll catch every damage possible, they'll fail every mechanics, it's no wonder that you have to compensate with your heals for their mistakes. In higher level keys less healing is requires, because people have more skill (and failed mechanics often ends up with one-shot anyway), so you'll naturally have more time to DPS.

Of course you're not expected to DPS when someone in dire need of heals. It's all depends on your group in the end.

[arkanon]

I quite literally said they didn't in Vanilla. I said CLASSIC has this prevalent.

Why? Because to do absolutely nothing as a healer is not acceptable in today's game. Back then, it just wasn't expected. It WAS possible, however.

Then replace that healer with a dps - if they are doing "absolutely nothing" then replace them with a dps and let the healers you do have heal. Its really not a difficult concept to understand, and Classic is NOT vanilla, so why introduce it to the conversation?

Why would you go Classic > TBC > Wrath > Cata, instead of Vanilla > TBC > Wrath > Cata? unless you were intentionally twisting the "truth" to fit your narrative?

[kenn9530]

snip

All you seem to do is lie, the moment a tank pulls there is damage outgoing and there is things to heal constantly so its a simple fact there is always something to heal, a healer in a raid or mythic plus is never just standing doing nothing.

You seem to have no idea at all about the game, in a raid there is always damage to heal every second of the fight.

Its mythic sludgefist have you even done that fight, there is a ton of healing needed constantly on that fight, one slight mistake and someone will die, i still have 6.5k hps on that fight when most of the time i focused on damage because 5 healing it meant dps was tight, if everyone in the raid at least done blue logs then there would be no issues.

A healer should not be forced to do damage just to kill a boss, that means many of the players in your group are bad players.

[Hellobolis]

That's never the healers fault. DPS checks aren't created with Healer DPS in mind.

lots of bosses in recent memory where we told healers to pop dps potions and go nuts or we wouldn't make dps checks. (arguably a good development since in the past simply replacing a healer with a dps was much more common)

and that's kinda the crux of the debate: at the highest difficulty, w/e healers do when they aren't healing does matter.

but IF it has, that's due to the timer, and obviously, is something Blizzard doesn't WANT to have happen.

yes... duh? and if they changed it to something else then that is what they want to happen? my personal take on it is that M+ has been more or less the same for 3 expansions now, it could do with a bit of a larger overhaul.

And giving every healer Bloodlust isn't the answer you seem to think it is. Every group already has Bloodlust.

that's not what i said. i suggested a sated reduction mechanic. e.g. at the most simple level: you cast a spell that does -3 seconds sated for the group instead of 100 damage.

Yes they do. There are always scenarios in which each character needs to be able to deal damage.

yes but those scenarios don't happen at the same time. you mentioned leveling. you aren't leveling when you are raiding.

That does not mean they ONLY need to be able to deal damage while leveling. It means they need to deal damage while leveling, and may need to deal damage elsewhere because they have the ability to deal damage thanks to needing to deal damage while leveling.

but your opening argument in this very post was that raids are NOT designed around healers doing damage? by that logic any damage a healer does is purely a nice bonus, but that nice bonus could be anything since the damage isn't needed. so why can't it be anything else?

[Segus1992]

I have a 98 log on mythic sludgefist for healer damage and still only done less than 700k and just under 2k dps.

If a healer just wants to heal thats fine and there is no content that actually needs healers to dps, if they choose to do damage then thats up to them also. It is just bad design if you are forcing healers to damage because you are unable to kill a boss and your dps are just getting blue logs.

If a healer is never DPSing but always active (and not overhealing or wasting time on slower heals when it's not necessary) that's one thing, but it's another entirely if a healer is simply inactive when there's nothing to heal. That's a slacker, and he's being carried by the rest of his group.

[Toybox]

Its mythic sludgefist have you even done that fight, there is a ton of healing needed constantly on that fight, one slight mistake and someone will die, i still have 6.5k hps on that fight when most of the time i focused on damage because 5 healing it meant dps was tight, if everyone in the raid at least done blue logs then there would be no issues.

A healer should not be forced to do damage just to kill a boss, that means many of the players in your group are bad players.

Healer DPS can be the difference between timing a key or not (especially at higher levels), & healer DPS has been the difference between guilds getting world first kills early on. Sure, for your average WoW/M+ group doing 15s & mythic Sludgefist later in a tier, healer DPS isn't strictly needed, but it improves the success rate, & any healer that doesn't contribute when the situation allows for it is simply underperforming.

[kenn9530]

Healer DPS can be the difference between timing a key or not (especially at higher levels), & healer DPS has been the difference between guilds getting world first kills early on. Sure, for your average WoW/M+ group doing 15s & mythic Sludgefist later in a tier, healer DPS isn't strictly needed, but it improves the success rate, & any healer that doesn't contribute when the situation allows for it is simply underperforming.

If you are not killing a raid boss because of dmg or mythic plus is more likely to be due to the players themselves or just a terrible route, my point is a healer should not feel forced to do things they dont want to because its simply not needed.

Healers dmg should go back to being pretty much useless instead of the terrible design WoW has currently.

[Toybox]

If you are not killing a raid boss because of dmg or mythic plus is more likely to be due to the players themselves or just a terrible route, my point is a healer should not feel forced to do things they dont want to because its simply not needed.

That's like saying DPS shouldn't have to interrupt because there's a healer in the group to deal with the fallout, or a tank shouldn't have to do more than hold aggro & press shield block because the DPS should be doing all the DPS.

M+ is a timed environment, and if a healer passes up the opportunity to contribute it when the situation allows for it, that healer just isn't very good at all.

[kenn9530]

That's like saying DPS shouldn't have to interrupt because there's a healer in the group to deal with the fallout, or a tank shouldn't have to do more than hold aggro & press shield block because the DPS should be doing all the DPS.

M+ is a timed environment, and if a healer passes up the opportunity to contribute it when the situation allows for it, that healer just isn't very good at all.

Some healers are not designed to heal and dps at the same time and even if they do the dmg its barely noticable, its more likely while the healer is trying to do dps that someone will die and that adds more time than a healer not doing any dmg at all, its far too easy to time a key as it stands, if a healer has to dps then its just a bad game design for WoW.

Current WoW gameplay design is terrible, if a healer wanted to dps they would be a dps.

[Toybox]

Some healers are not designed to heal and dps at the same time and even if they do the dmg its barely noticable, its more likely while the healer is trying to do dps that someone will die and that adds more time than a healer not doing any dmg at all, its far too easy to time a key as it stands, if a healer has to dps then its just a bad game design for WoW.

Current WoW gameplay design is terrible, if a healer wanted to dps they would be a dps.

On the bolded bit, this is only true if you're doing lower keys. The higher you go, the extra damage has to come from somewhere. Some of it comes from alternative routes, better CD usage, different pulls, etc, but sometimes you just need all five members of the party to contribute to output. That's ALWAYS going to happen with a timed system with limitless scaling.

On the some healers can't DPS thing - There's not a healer in this game who can't put out a conservative 500-1k DPS over the course of a dungeon, which is upwards of a million damage overall. That could very easily be the difference between timing a key & not timing a key. Yes if you just miss out on timing a 15 it'd be very easy to say "the DPS didn't do much damage", but any healer sitting there having done little to no DPS over the dungeon can't really comment as they're still very much part of the groups output.

I guess DPS shouldn't press their healing defensives - If they wanted to heal they'd have played a healer, no?

[arkanon]

Because if you'll notice, I went through how Classic DIFFERS from Vanilla (that Vanilla did not expect dps, while Classic does, from healers, despite being scaled the same) and then showed how it wasn't until CATACLYSM that Healers became expected to DPS. Literally, my original post starts with "while true," telling you I'm agreeing with you, BUT his timeline is very off.

Seriously - Read the post and you'll get it.

Healers having a period of downtime in healing = Doing absolutely nothing if they're not dpsing. That doesn't mean they aren't healing - But there IS significant downtime for healers if you're ONLY healing. And nobody should have downtime, you're wasting the entire group's time if there is.

- - - Updated - - -



Because I didn't.

I went Vanilla (I'm agreeing with you) > Classic > TBC > Wrath > Cata

I explained how people in Vanilla did not expect dps by agreeing with you. I then said Classic is different because...

Like... Please. This is not difficult.

Why the hell would you go vanilla > classic > tbc... That makes absolutely no sense at all. Nothing you are saying makes any sense at all, and comes across as someone who doesn't / hasn't played the game at even a moderate difficulty but has read some forum posts.

[kenn9530]

On the bolded bit, this is only true if you're doing lower keys. The higher you go, the extra damage has to come from somewhere. Some of it comes from alternative routes, better CD usage, different pulls, etc, but sometimes you just need all five members of the party to contribute to output. That's ALWAYS going to happen with a timed system with limitless scaling.

On the some healers can't DPS thing - There's not a healer in this game who can't put out a conservative 500-1k DPS over the course of a dungeon, which is upwards of a million damage overall. That could very easily be the difference between timing a key & not timing a key. Yes if you just miss out on timing a 15 it'd be very easy to say "the DPS didn't do much damage", but any healer sitting there having done little to no DPS over the dungeon can't really comment as they're still very much part of the groups output.

I guess DPS shouldn't press their healing defensives - If they wanted to heal they'd have played a healer, no?

Its easy to time a 15-20 key a healer is not required to do any sort of dmg whatsoever, plus timing a 15 is irrelevant due to the only thing you want for it is the weekly chest. All im saying it is not required and its a choice to do it or not, same with other classes unsing utility its up to them to use it.

[Toybox]

Its easy to time a 15-20 key a healer is not required to do any sort of dmg whatsoever, plus timing a 15 is irrelevant due to the only thing you want for it is the weekly chest. All im saying it is not required and its a choice to do it or not, same with other classes unsing utility its up to them to use it.

& just like any DPS player not using their utility or a tank not using their CDs, a healer not doing damage is letting the group down.

[Thundering]

I've picked up healing again after being years away from the game since early MoP. Do Healers have to DPS during down time these days? I'm lost and confused.

I picked up healing on a Holy Paladin and a Resto Shaman. I found myself being pushed into using Crusader strikes on enemies and bosses. Which turned me off the spec and class that I enjoyed healing on back in the day. I levelled up a Shaman and decided to try Resto. I've been seeing a lot of talk about healers doing a ton of DPS in Mythic keys and am wondering if I should be DPSing as well when not healing or during downtime?

I've done a few low keys, and I barely have time to keep up with healing let alone DPSing. How are healers expected to or are DPSing at higher keys? Is there something I ain't doing right or should be doing? Thanks for any and all advice. Could really use it.

classic healing is more fun than retail.

[kenn9530]

& just like any DPS player not using their utility or a tank not using their CDs, a healer not doing damage is letting the group down.

No they are not, a healers job is to make sure noone dies and when a healer does dmg the chances of someone dying is vastly increased because it will be at least 2-3 seconds before anyone gets a heal. One person dying adds far more time than saved from some healer damage.

And if you are pugging deaths are even more likely because you have no idea how good or bad a player actually is.

[Diaphin]

Of course it's not a bad idea to toss out some damage spells if there is nothing else going on. Many fights have burn phases where there is almost no healing that needs to be done. You would be negligent IMO if you didn't toss out at least a few spells during situations like that. Even if mana is tight, most/all healers have damage spells that cost no mana or are part of their normal rotation anyway. For example, a Resto Druid can cast Wrath mana free.

But your focus should always be 100% on healing, as that is your job. If you aren't healing at the top of your game because you spent too much time focusing on damage, you'll end up hurting your group more than you help them. If a DPS has to turtle or similar instead of focusing on DPS because you aren't doing a good job healing them, their lost DPS will more than negate any DPS that you bring.

So focus on healing. DPS when you can do so without any compromise to your healing. If that means not doing any DPS at all, because you had to heal harder than you planned, then so be it. In higher keys you always get control freaks with huge egos eager to blame any issue that crops up on someone else and try to tell others what they did "wrong". Don't worry about it.

Especially in easy playmodes, Healers often have massive downtimes, especially if there is a tank who can mitigate or selfheal alot. In that instances, it should actually be required of healers to dps, as otherwise they are basically just forcing the group to boost them for free and it should be common to kick them out if they stand afk for most of the time contributing nothing.

[arkanon]

& just like any DPS player not using their utility or a tank not using their CDs, a healer not doing damage is letting the group down.

Apples and oranges mate – a tank has defensive cds, just like healers have increased healing cds, and dps have increased dps cds – everyone should be using them. And again, all classes have utility, and should be expected to use them. What you are asking is the equiv of dps tanking, and tanks healing others.

There have always been niche situations where this is expected or required, but that is not the same thing as expecting healers to be dpsing in every free global since vanilla, as some are wrongly claiming.