Capitol Insurrection / rebellion thread

[Edge-]

Whether we want the POTUS directing the actions of the DoJ or not, they do. You know this.

Kinda sorta not really? I mean there's always involvement, but usually there's a level of respect in the post-Nixon era where presidents know to keep some distance between themselves and the DoJ. Trump just grossly flouted that. I'm not saying there's a perfect, or even great separation, but it exists and Biden seems to be wanting to stick to it.

As I said, if there's evidence to go after them, and Garland doesn't, it will be because Biden told him to back off or isn't telling him to go after them. Either way, its on Biden.

Or, because Garland didn't think there was enough evidence to bring charges or an indictment, himself. Which is how the DoJ should work, independently. We've got investigations in the House/Senate, with the more recent investigations in the House kicking into gear. We'll see what those net out, because the DoJ doesn't talk too much about active investigations so we don't know what, if anything, they're doing on this front.

[Bodakane]

Kinda sorta not really? I mean there's always involvement, but usually there's a level of respect in the post-Nixon era where presidents know to keep some distance between themselves and the DoJ. Trump just grossly flouted that. I'm not saying there's a perfect, or even great separation, but it exists and Biden seems to be wanting to stick to it.



Or, because Garland didn't think there was enough evidence to bring charges or an indictment, himself. Which is how the DoJ should work, independently. We've got investigations in the House/Senate, with the more recent investigations in the House kicking into gear. We'll see what those net out, because the DoJ doesn't talk too much about active investigations so we don't know what, if anything, they're doing on this front.

I'm sorry, but if you think the WH would stay out of something this big, you're being naive....purposely so.

[beanman12345]

This is INSANE.

Either something really bad is going on and these "suicides" are actually homicides (which, frankly, seems at least far fetched, even for me) or we need to get social services over to each and every officer involved in the Terrorist Insurrection.

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I did not know that. Whoa.

Thing is, there is a prevalent macho culture amongst police, so mental health aid is not something they'd be very willingly accepting of.

[Edge-]

I'm sorry, but if you think the WH would stay out of something this big, you're being naive....purposely so.

Why? It's the territory of Congress and the DoJ, which while part of the executive branch isn't at the beck and call of the POTUS, nor should they be. Biden can direct them to take a look, but he can't manage the investigation if they end up taking a look.

[Bodakane]

Why? It's the territory of Congress and the DoJ, which while part of the executive branch isn't at the beck and call of the POTUS, nor should they be. Biden can direct them to take a look, but he can't manage the investigation if they end up taking a look.

Like I said, you're being naive. That's your choice. Trump didn't invent pressuring the DoJ from the Resolute Desk, he was just too stupid to not do it publicly.

Its kind of mind boggling so many intelligent people act like Trump invented corruption. I mean, he took it to new heights, sure, but the avenues he used to commit them were always there.

[Edge-]

Like I said, you're being naive. That's your choice. Trump didn't invent pressuring the DoJ from the Resolute Desk, he was just too stupid to not do it publicly.

Again, nobody wants to repeat Nixon, except maybe Trump. And we shouldn't encourage that kind of behavior too, even if we think it delivers us something we want. The DoJ are the peoples lawyer, not the lawyer for the POTUS, they shouldn't be acting at the direction of POTUS in their political interests, instead of in the interest of the US people.

I'm not gonna cheer on corruption like this just because it's "my team" and "my righteous cause" now, even if I desperately want the investigation to happen and to bring anyone responsible to justice.

Its kind of mind boggling so many intelligent people act like Trump invented corruption.

Except that I don't think that, and that I literally cited Nixon's heavy hand with the DoJ as being a reason for WHY presidents since Nixon have sought to maintain some level of distance between their administration and the DoJ.

[Bodakane]

Again, nobody wants to repeat Nixon, except maybe Trump. And we shouldn't encourage that kind of behavior too, even if we think it delivers us something we want. The DoJ are the peoples lawyer, not the lawyer for the POTUS, they shouldn't be acting at the direction of POTUS in their political interests, instead of in the interest of the US people.

I'm not gonna cheer on corruption like this just because it's "my team" and "my righteous cause" now, even if I desperately want the investigation to happen and to bring anyone responsible to justice.



Except that I don't think that, and that I literally cited Nixon's heavy hand with the DoJ as being a reason for WHY presidents since Nixon have sought to maintain some level of distance between their administration and the DoJ.

You repeating how it should work in theory, isn't an argument for how it does work in reality, no matter how many times you repeat it.

As I said, any case this size, will have WH interference, like it or not, whether it should happen or not. If the evidence is there and the DoJ decides to act on it, it will be ONLY with WH approval.

Presidents since Nixon, have maintained a level of "public" distance. But I guarantee you nothing super high profile goes through the DoJ without west wing influence.

If what you're saying is true, then there wouldn't have been the mechanisms in place for Trump to abuse.

[cubby]

You repeating how it should work in theory, isn't an argument for how it does work in reality, no matter how many times you repeat it.

As I said, any case this size, will have WH interference, like it or not, whether it should happen or not. If the evidence is there and the DoJ decides to act on it, it will be ONLY with WH approval.

Presidents since Nixon, have maintained a level of "public" distance. But I guarantee you nothing super high profile goes through the DoJ without west wing influence.

If what you're saying is true, then there wouldn't have been the mechanisms in place for Trump to abuse.

But you're missing the point. We want it to work the way @Edge is suggesting, because that's how it should work. So Biden will stay out of the way of the DoJ, because he ought to be doing so.

So you saying the onus is on Biden goes directly against what we want the system to be doing, and what it usually and historically does. The end of this conversation is that it is in fact NOT on Biden's shoulders to make sure this is done.

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Thing is, there is a prevalent macho culture amongst police, so mental health aid is not something they'd be very willingly accepting of.

That's a good point. One many people forget; which therapy and social services would dramatically help, that call for help is sometimes insurmountable.

[Bodakane]

But you're missing the point. We want it to work the way @Edge is suggesting, because that's how it should work. So Biden will stay out of the way of the DoJ, because he ought to be doing so.

So you saying the onus is on Biden goes directly against what we want the system to be doing, and what it usually and historically does. The end of this conversation is that it is in fact NOT on Biden's shoulders to make sure this is done.

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That's a good point. One many people forget; which therapy and social services would dramatically help, that call for help is sometimes insurmountable.

I'm not missing the point. You guys are.

How you want it to work is not how it does work. Full stop.

I'm telling you that the WH will interfere whether you want them to or not. And since they will, that means if the evidence is there but they do nothing it will be because of Biden.

[Edge-]

How you want it to work is not how it does work. Full stop.

Nobody is alleging that the POTUS is completely hands off with the DoJ, dude.

We're here saying that post-Nixon they've intentionally kept some distance between them, but haven't severed contact or anything. They still direct the DoJ at times, we saw that with Obama and Eric Holder. But what you're arguing for is positively Trumpian/Nixonian overreach, which we're rejecting. The "normal" level of the administration and DoJ working together is fine, and should be what we continue to shoot for.

And since they will, that means if the evidence is there but they do nothing it will be because of Biden.

No, you're just literally making up fairy tails to justify why a potential investigation may not come to the conclusion you want.

[Shadowferal]

DoJ has always been apolitical. The Trump/Barr shitshow changed that. And we need to know that was only then. If Garland starts taking orders from Biden then things really haven't changed much.

[cubby]

I'm not missing the point. You guys are.

How you want it to work is not how it does work. Full stop.

I'm telling you that the WH will interfere whether you want them to or not. And since they will, that means if the evidence is there but they do nothing it will be because of Biden.

And you'd be wrong. Precisely because the way we want it to work is also how Biden has expressly said he does as well, and it's also how Garland is operating. If you have been watching the news, you'd know that Biden is hands off.

So, what's really going on is that you're pushing your own version of what you think will happen upon a situation that is not conforming to your beliefs.

[Bodakane]

Nobody is alleging that the POTUS is completely hands off with the DoJ, dude.

We're here saying that post-Nixon they've intentionally kept some distance between them, but haven't severed contact or anything. They still direct the DoJ at times, we saw that with Obama and Eric Holder. But what you're arguing for is positively Trumpian/Nixonian overreach, which we're rejecting. The "normal" level of the administration and DoJ working together is fine, and should be what we continue to shoot for.



No, you're just literally making up fairy tails to justify why a potential investigation may not come to the conclusion you want.

I said if the evidence is there and they do nothing.

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And you'd be wrong. Precisely because the way we want it to work is also how Biden has expressly said he does as well, and it's also how Garland is operating. If you have been watching the news, you'd know that Biden is hands off.

So, what's really going on is that you're pushing your own version of what you think will happen upon a situation that is not conforming to your beliefs.

I’m not wrong, you’re just being willfully naive.

[cubby]

I’m not wrong, you’re just being willfully naive.

You've got two relatively intelligent people telling you to reexamine your assumptions for this assertion you're making. Just think on it. And take a look at some of the articles discussing Garland's DoJ and their purposeful distancing from any interaction and/or direction from POTUS.

You should also consider you're at the point in your debating where you're not offering any new information or points of view, and are doubling down on name calling. Or do you really think Edge and I are naive? In politics?

[Bodakane]

You've got two relatively intelligent people telling you to reexamine your assumptions for this assertion you're making. Just think on it. And take a look at some of the articles discussing Garland's DoJ and their purposeful distancing from any interaction and/or direction from POTUS.

You should also consider you're at the point in your debating where you're not offering any new information or points of view, and are doubling down on name calling. Or do you really think Edge and I are naive? In politics?

First of all, you're acting like I haven't thought on it.

Secondly, I have read articles. They sound great. But if you think it isn't different behind closed doors, especially over something this massive, you're lying to yourself.

Third, even edge admitted the WH puts pressure on the DoJ. He just thinks Biden would totes not do it, in the single biggest case ever.

Lastly, you're not offering anything new either. In fact, you haven't really offered anything at all. All you've done is tell me how you wish it worked.

Regardless, I'll restate.....if there's evidence and the DoJ does nothing about it, then that is a negative reflection of Biden and Garland (Biden's nom so also bad on Biden).

[cubby]

First of all, you're acting like I haven't thought on it.

Secondly, I have read articles. They sound great. But if you think it isn't different behind closed doors, especially over something this massive, you're lying to yourself.

Third, even edge admitted the WH puts pressure on the DoJ. He just thinks Biden would totes not do it, in the single biggest case ever.

Lastly, you're not offering anything new either. In fact, you haven't really offered anything at all. All you've done is tell me how you wish it worked.

Regardless, I'll restate.....if there's evidence and the DoJ does nothing about it, then that is a negative reflection of Biden and Garland (Biden's nom so also bad on Biden).

You are acting like you haven't thought on it. You're doing the thing you always do when you make a claim and are challenged - doubling down without considering any new evidence or perspectives.

You read articles that prove you wrong, by your own admission, but then state that your reality and version of events is right, despite the articles you admit you've read. I'll let you think on that.

Edge admitted the White House has put pressure on the DoJ. But not this White House. And when he said that the WH had done it, it was referencing bad actors, like Nixon and Trump. Something for you to also think on.

I have offered new information. Information you now admit you've considered and discarded, without any new information from you to challenge those points of view and statements. You literally admitted you read information that demonstrated you were wrong, and because of your *feels*, discarded it and went ahead with your wholly unfounded opinion. Recall you've provided no evidence for you perspective. You only condemn Biden in some future turn of events without evidence or logic.

You're restating something you've already admitted is wrong. Think on that, if nothing else.

[Bodakane]

You are acting like you haven't thought on it. You're doing the thing you always do when you make a claim and are challenged - doubling down without considering any new evidence or perspectives.

You read articles that prove you wrong, by your own admission, but then state that your reality and version of events is right, despite the articles you admit you've read. I'll let you think on that.

Edge admitted the White House has put pressure on the DoJ. But not this White House. And when he said that the WH had done it, it was referencing bad actors, like Nixon and Trump. Something for you to also think on.

I have offered new information. Information you now admit you've considered and discarded, without any new information from you to challenge those points of view and statements. You literally admitted you read information that demonstrated you were wrong, and because of your *feels*, discarded it and went ahead with your wholly unfounded opinion. Recall you've provided no evidence for you perspective. You only condemn Biden in some future turn of events without evidence or logic.

You're restating something you've already admitted is wrong. Think on that, if nothing else.

oh for fuck's sake.

Pay attention.

You know he can do it. I know he can do it. So we both agree he could interfere. Yes?

So what you are saying is if he doesn't put pressure on the DoJ to go after Trump IF THERE'S EVIDENCE TO, then its perfectly ok because he's placing something not illegal, but merely bad form, over seeking justice against the most corrupt POTUS ever. And you think that is some how a counter argument to me blaming him if he did that?

[cubby]

oh for fuck's sake.

Pay attention.

You know he can do it. I know he can do it. So we both agree he could interfere. Yes?

So what you are saying is if he doesn't put pressure on the DoJ to go after Trump IF THERE'S EVIDENCE TO, then its perfectly ok because he's placing something not illegal, but merely bad form, over seeking justice against the most corrupt POTUS ever. And you think that is some how a counter argument to me blaming him if he did that?

Let's do this - can we agree that if there is evidence of wrong doing by Members of Congress and/or Trump in regards to the Terrorist Insurrection, the DoJ should pursue it, regardless of politics or outside influences. How does that sound?

[Bodakane]

Let's do this - can we agree that if there is evidence of wrong doing by Members of Congress and/or Trump in regards to the Terrorist Insurrection, the DoJ should pursue it, regardless of politics or outside influences. How does that sound?

Yes they should. That's been part of my point all along.

If there is evidence and the DoJ doesn't go after them, its on Biden. <-----that's the second part of my point.

You actually agree, because you know Biden could pressure them to do the right thing, you just think its super awesome if Biden doesn't.

[cubby]

Yes they should. That's been part of my point all along.

If there is evidence and the DoJ doesn't go after them, its on Biden. <-----that's the second part of my point.

You actually agree, because you know Biden could pressure them to do the right thing, you just think its super awesome if Biden doesn't.

No, I don't agree with you. AT ALL. And as usual you throw an olive branch right back into someone's face. So, forget it. I rescind my previous suggestion.

You are dead wrong. 100%. And you've already admitted it. Which is hysterical.

Not only are you wrong, and admitted to being wrong, you told us all you read articles showing you were wrong, but cast them aside for your *feels*. Let us know when you resolve all that and come back to reality.

Meanwhile, outside of Body's Bizzaro World, we see that Biden will have no influence or say on criminal matters. Here's another saying U.S. Attorney General Merrick Garland vows to operate free of political influence. Biden won't have influence over Garland's criminal pursuits as the AG. Period.

You. Are. Dead. Fucking. Wrong.

There's plenty more, but who cares, right? Even if you read them, you won't believe them, because Body is into Stage 3 of his daily debating routine - lashing out with irrational statements and refusing to admit he's wrong, even when he's already admitted to being so. I guess we can all just wait until tomorrow when Body-Hyde is back with us.

Good night Jekyll!